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Petition to lower the cost of the 3rd rate and St. Pavel

Should the St. Pavel and 3rd rate be cheaper to craft so people actually sail them more often?  

48 members have voted

  1. 1. I propose the St. Pavel should cost 10 CMs and 4400 Doubloons and the 3rd rate to 5 CMs and 3200 Doubloons.

    • Agree, that they are too expensive for their capabilities
      18
    • Disagree, they are fine as they are.
      2
    • Agree, they are too expensive but they should be even cheaper or require no permit.
      19
    • Keep their cost and buff their stats.
      9


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I think it's a shame these ships are almost never sailed by most players, given their lack luster performance for their cost. I think if they were cheaper and easier to craft we might start seeing some players actually using these ships. 

Edited by Never
  • Like 4

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1 hour ago, Wraith said:

IMO they aren't even worth sailing at that cost.

Yep, you're probably right, but at lower costs they start to conflict with other ships. I suggested the lowest possible without putting them below lower rated ships. A buff would be needed to go along with the lower cost, just one thing at a time I guess. 

Edited by Never

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31 minutes ago, Tortue Agile said:

I say cheaper and no permit.... and I would recommend that for all ships.

but why? you know we would only see the biggest ship as we do now right? it would be unhealthy for the game, and does absolutily not create immersive gameplay as the devs have made in the game description

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I think the main thing that should happen is that ships within a rank should have more variety that would better fit into a players particular play style. Have one ship that is slow but heavy with moderate damage output, one that is fast and maneuverable with low damage output, and one that is moderate speed and armor but high damage output. What we have currently is ships that have very little in stats difference and thus needs the player to adapt to the ship and use upgrades in an attempt to get it to fit into their style. Some players like the brawlers which have a lot of armor and damage but take about a week to turn around while others like high speed and lighter guns and only take about a day to turn around. The turn rate nerf that was applied was a knife in the back to those players who preferred the skirmisher approach of out maneuvering their opponent without having to resort to using something like the snow and there being nothing in the frigate or lineship rates that could do the same regardless of what mods you cram into them.

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8 hours ago, Wraith said:

IMO they aren't even worth sailing at that cost.

lower the cost and would they still be worth sailing the pavel?

helllllllllllllllllll no.

the cost is not the problem.

 

I have a counter proposal for all lineships that cost permits. Allow the Permits to be purchased with victory marks.

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Buff their stats.

Это не Святой Павел и "третий безымянный рейт", а  жертвы для своих однорейтовиков, в первую очередь по скорости.

Уже 2 года многие хотят Монтанец как самый быстрый 3 рейт. Снимают ноты с потопленных элиток, получают 14+ узлов на картонной модификации, радуются Very fast и...

И 3 рейт нерфят по скорости на 0,8 узла! Он чуть быстрее имбы-Кристиана. Судя по данным готовящихся к выпуску 3-х рейтов они имеют скорость по дефолту тоже 10,6 узла. Монтанца из них можно искусственно получить только картонного.

А Святой Павел, корабль Ушакова, не имеющий "нормальных" 32ф каронад (хотя их имеют даже Ваппен фон Гамбург и Ингерманланд, корабли начала 18 века, когда каронад не было и в помине) на целый узел тормознее Васы не говоря уже о Белоне - он слабее ее во всем кроме абордажа.

Ну и до кучи - Виктория Нельсона, жертва реализма, у нее на орудиях не хватает более 200 человек, скорость пониже остальных 1 рейтов. 2 года назад Вика была самым толстым рейтом, теперь она одной толщины с Буцентавром.

Надо баффать. Если и не выправлять явные недостатки, то вводить особенности кораблей. Например Святой Павел имел между шпангоутами бортовые стрингеры для увеличения прочности, фальшкиль (при осадке всего 6,3 метра), а на юте у него стояли 1/4 пудовые единороги. В терминах игры это может означать встроенный фальшкиль (меньший снос при ходе в бейдевинд), встроенную защиту экипажа от щепок - процентов на 5, а также встроенные единороги на ботах в ОМ, вместо мидов (уменьшенный вес орудий, больший урон, быстрая перезарядка; в игре есть модификация мидов, Конгрейвы с такими же особенностями, но меньшим уроном, чем у мидов, 6-фунтовых Конгрейвов не встречал, просьба вернуть в игру хотя бы малокалиберные 6ф единороги). Ну и мораль команды корабля, взявшего Корфу, могла бы быть и повыше на 10.

Если не прибавлять Вике экипаж, то можно было бы "встроить" ей винный рацион (повышенную расторопность и мораль экипажа), который был распространен в далеких походах: пиво заменяли вином.

Эти особенности можно было бы отображать в примечаниях к названию корабля, отображаемых в раскрывающейся вкладке в порту. 

3 рейт уже давно можно было как-нибудь назвать ;) например Swiftsure (1787, тип Элизабет проекта Слейда (предыдущий проект - Беллона :) ), вооружение ровно то, что в игре), очень живучий корабль, участник Битвы на Ниле, позже захваченный французами у британцев и отбитый назад при Трафальгаре, счастливо доведенный до Гибралтара (в отличие от большинства кораблей, захваченных при Трафальгаре и затопленных). Его особенностью могла бы быть пониженная текучесть и встроенная улучшенная помпа. Вообще с помпами-перманентами надо что то делать, их нельзя отнести к топовым модулям, но они массово сыпятся даже с элиток. Помню времена, когда зафиченный  хорошей помпой лив-оак Эссекс вообще не тонул с одним, полностью разбитым бортом (сколько воды набиралось - столько и откачивалось) и надо было стрелять ему и в другой борт. Лив-оак 3 рейт, зафиченный топовой помпой, мог бы не тонуть на пол-риски структуры - стал бы более популярен.

Если 3 рейту все-таки повышать скорость (хотя бы до 10,9 узла), то есть "Летящий Беллерофон" (Bellerophon, 1786) типа Аррогант (модифицированная Белона), прозванный так в британском флоте за быстрый ход. Также участник Битвы на Ниле, Трафальгара, ему сдался Наполеон.

Введение 6ф единорогов могло бы повысить играбельность некоторых 6-фунтовых кораблей на мелководье (бригов, хеви и просто Ратлснейка), а также Бель-Пуля и Херувима. Захватил несколько ботов Святых Павлов со встроенными 6ф единорогами - поставил вместо 6-фунтовок единороги на указанные корабли, и они с большим успехом применяются против более крупнокалиберных конкурентов (бриги против 9ф Ниагары; Геркулеса и Шебеки; Бель-Пуль и Херувим с единорогами на верхней палубе - против тяжелых фрегатов и Пиратского фрегата, имеющего особенность - 50% препару). 6ф единороги могли бы выпадать и с элиток - вместо набивших оскомину Конгрейвов и каронад.

P.S. Эссекс достоин 6000 hp борта и кормовых орудий, хотя бы 6-фунтовых ;)

Edited by Rolando

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2 hours ago, Teutonic said:

lower the cost and would they still be worth sailing the pavel?

helllllllllllllllllll no.

the cost is not the problem.

 

I have a counter proposal for all lineships that cost permits. Allow the Permits to be purchased with victory marks.

Isn't that pretty much the same thing? Making them easier to get?

One thing doesn't have to cancel the other though, all permits could be available for both CMs and VMs. 

Edited by Never
  • Like 2

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11 hours ago, Wraith said:

IMO they aren't even worth sailing at that cost.

lower the costs would be a good choice anyway. actually it is just a shame to see just a handful of all the models. Why don't we get pvp missions for certain ship-types? All the nice models should be used!

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2 hours ago, Never said:

Isn't that pretty much the same thing? Making them easier to get?

One thing doesn't have to cancel the other though, all permits could be available for both CMs and VMs. 

i agree it makes them easier available, i would vouch for that the 2nd and 1st rate permits only drops from chests from epic events, the 2nd rate from the normal chests and 1st from the epic chests of course, and let the 3rd rate permits be purchasable by VM from admirality. This would encourage people like myself included to do epic events or going after the deadmans chests because i find no reason in doing it now considering i can do pvp for 1 day and have permits for probably 2 1st rates.

 

13 minutes ago, Genevieve Malfleurs said:

lower the costs would be a good choice anyway. actually it is just a shame to see just a handful of all the models. Why don't we get pvp missions for certain ship-types? All the nice models should be used!

The reason people dont use all those other models is because they're not meta, L'ocean is meta because the low BR, HP, Firepower, Hull Shape, and this will never change unless there is a reason to use any other model, sometimes santisimas are used (saw yesterday that the russians had 6 out of 8 1st rates in PB were santisima, but thats because of the higher crew and better bow spirit.

The HMS Victory etc is never used in RvR because there is basically no difference in cost between it and the l'ocean, the victory has a stronger bow, but thats about it.

High End items should require a player to do high end content which requires you to be more or less max rank.

Edited by erelkivtuadrater

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i suggest to increase their costs of mats to 50k frame woods and 30k planking....1-2-3rd rates must be rare in this game, not a spam.

and buff 1-2-3rd rates HP guns damages as it was in early time of damage patch model

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14 minutes ago, huliotkd said:

i suggest to increase their costs of mats to 50k frame woods and 30k planking....1-2-3rd rates must be rare in this game, not a spam.

and buff 1-2-3rd rates HP guns damages as it was in early time of damage patch model

think it would be ok as it is with the resource cost, the hp of the 3rd rate lineships could be somewhat bigger, atleast the wasa, but Im not really sure how increasing resource cost will play out though, there will be an even bigger gap between low pop / high pop nation, and would create further imbalance between nation IMO. Think its better to remove the 2nd and 1st rate permits from the admirality and have say the 1st rate permits ONLY have a chanced drop from Epic chests from epic events and 2nd rate permits have a chanced drop from the other chests in the epic events.

Could also rebalance the drop rate and loottable from the deadmans chests for the Solo/trader guy that dont want to fight to have a chance getting a permit, but as a high risk / high reward gain.

Thinking of it this would also limit the usage of alts as you would need a lineship to do an epic event (crew)

Edited by erelkivtuadrater

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Many people are still scared to sail crafted ships and always will be. Making chepaer ships like St. Pavel or 3rd Rate might be good compromise. 

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14 minutes ago, erelkivtuadrater said:

they do need a boost in the resource costs, but i would have the 3rd rate lineships alot lower then the 2nd and 1st rates, not that low that its no fuzz to make them, but low enough so you would probably spend the resources on the 3rd rates rather then the 2nd and 1st rates :) 

yes and no...3rd rate were intended to be the backbone of national fleet but they were still expensive so maybe 35k frame wood and 15 planking wood...most affordable ships were 4th rates after 5th rates. i'm really tired of all the spam of 1st-2nd-3rd rate all over the server.

it's boring

13 minutes ago, o7Captain said:

Many people are still scared to sail crafted ships and always will be. Making chepaer ships like St. Pavel or 3rd Rate might be good compromise. 

wrong, they are scared for installed good mod. btw, they can't use crafted line ships as they use a 6th or 5th rates. each ship has its role and purpose...now they don't...

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3 minutes ago, huliotkd said:

yes and no...3rd rate were intended to be the backbone of national fleet but they were still expensive so maybe 35k frame wood and 15 planking wood...most affordable ships were 4th rates after 5th rates. i'm really tired of all the spam of 1st-2nd-3rd rate all over the server.

i edited my post, but im afraid that since there is no real duration of a wood in the warehouse, where the quality withers or it eventually rot away the biggest nations will just metagame this mechanic, i agree that 4th and 5th rate should be the mainly seen ships with 3rd rates alot more often to see then the even bigger lineships. but i got a bad feeling if its adjusted that way, i would be tempted to test it, wouldnt matter as much for me since i just sailed captured ships :P but i think permit drops from the chests by doing events is the best way to go in my opinion :) 

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1 hour ago, huliotkd said:

i suggest to increase their costs of mats to 50k frame woods and 30k planking....1-2-3rd rates must be rare in this game, not a spam.

and buff 1-2-3rd rates HP guns damages as it was in early time of damage patch model

Many players would quit if they lost a ship that cost 80k wood. I think it's way too late to make such drastic changes, the game is what it is, small adjustments are better than trying to change everything to something entirely different at this point.
Think of how many players already own multiple 1st rates, you would just be making it harder on new players. How many casuals would the game lose if you tell them that they are likely to never be able to own a first rate? Probably the vast majority of them 
Also 1st rates are capturable from AI now. I don't know how much sense there is making crated ones 100 times more expensive than NPC captured ones. 

Edited by Never

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1 hour ago, huliotkd said:

yes and no...3rd rate were intended to be the backbone of national fleet but they were still expensive so maybe 35k frame wood and 15 planking wood...most affordable ships were 4th rates after 5th rates. i'm really tired of all the spam of 1st-2nd-3rd rate all over the server.

it's boring

wrong, they are scared for installed good mod. btw, they can't use crafted line ships as they use a 6th or 5th rates. each ship has its role and purpose...now they don't...

Do you really know how long it takes to gather 50k wood? A 1st rate now requires 3.5k wood for frame+planking and they sell for about 4 million reales. You would be increasing the demand for wood astronomically as well. A 3rd rate would cost around 15 to 20 million reales, depending on the wood supply. 

I agree with the main point you're making it would be nice to see line ships be rare. One of my best experiences with the game after release was seeing the very first Santissima, everyone in the nation wanted to take it down or capture it. Seeing it in OW was an event in itself. But at least what the majority of the game population seems to want is less grind. See how many people b*tch and complain about the economy and they quit cause of it.

How many bad reviews the game got give over the inflation of cargo missions being controlled with a patch? A lot. Should the aim be to create the perfect game for the few of us or try to have a balanced game for hardcore and casual players? 

If the costs for line ships were to be increased it would have to a gradual change, because thousands of them are already sitting in player's docks. 

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10 minutes ago, Never said:

Many players would quit if they lost a ship that cost 80k wood. I think it's way too late to make such drastic changes, the game is what it is, small adjustments are better than trying to change everything to something entirely different at this point.
Think of how many players already own multiple 1st rates, you would just be making it harder on new players. How many casuals would the game lose if you tell them that they are likely to never be able to own a first rate? Probably the vast majority of them 
Also 1st rates are capturable from AI now. I don't know how much sense there is making crated ones 100 times more expensive than NPC captured ones. 

many player stops using it out of PB or important battle. many player quit the game because there is no end game and they use a 1st rate as a 5th rate. many players quit because when they go out with their first crafted 5th rate they find 6 crafted 1st rates faster than it's 5th rate. many player quit because capped 1st rates are useless due to no port bonus ,useless also for patrol or whatevere you want to use them.

many palyers quit because they grind everytime but they loose in battle because pretend to use a 1st rates without knowing anything of ships manouvers, just ''i have big ship why i can't win?''. many player quit because every important activity is 25 1st rates vs 25 1st rates and they cannot afford or go near to afford a participation ticket for that events because they have only 1 or 2 not repleacable 1st rates so the only solution is to increase the difficult to build a line ship more than a 4th rate so everyone ,even the biggest nation, find some difficulties to producing a spam of lineship for every nation player and all the server will use easy crafting 4th rates

 

1st rates should cost 70k frame and 40 planking, 2nd rate 50k and 30k , 3rd rate 30k and 15k...the other ships remain as it is now. also Russia or Dutch will have hard time spamming  235908290582089 lineship to use in always the same screening battles ,same PB every 2 days and with same people...

this is a persistent universe, the end game must be harder and harder and harder and harder...variety of the ships is the key to survive.

soon i'll also propose to link ship model to each nation of time...no more spam of santisima out of spain, only cap them from spanish player and so on...

variety

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1 hour ago, huliotkd said:

i suggest to increase their costs of mats to 50k frame woods and 30k planking....1-2-3rd rates must be rare in this game, not a spam.

and buff 1-2-3rd rates HP guns damages as it was in early time of damage patch model

Time to bring out my favorite statistic about this: if you join the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic wars, you have a 2/3 chance to end up on a 1-3rate. Not rare. Frigates were the sought-after commands.

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On topic: The clone 74 is very uncompetitive at its price tag.
I'd even try the experiment and make her free of CM cost.

Pavel can be made interesting by giving her access to Edinorogs (as the only ship in the game). She'd still not be meta but at least she'd have teeth and she carried a handfull of them in RL.

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