Tweaking of Determined Defender Perk

[Henry Long Castle]

I believe that this perk would be a lot more balanced if the way it is applied is changed a bit. If we take a look to it historically, there is a very good example on how it could be better. Lets take a look on Henry Avery's story of capturing the Ganj-i-Sawai.

" The Ganj-i-Sawai was a fearsome opponent, mounting 40 to 60 guns and a musket-armed guard of four to five hundred as well as six hundred other passengers. But the opening volley evened the odds, as one of the Indian ship's cannons exploded, killing some of its gunners and causing great confusion and demoralization among the crew, while Every's broadside shot his enemy's mainmast by the board. The larger Fancy drew alongside, and a number of her 113-man crew clambered aboard, overpowering the crew, passengers and slaves of the Ganj-i-Sawai. "

Here we can see that an event such as a cannon exploding or other evens like this could demoralize and cause enough confusion for 100 men to be able to capture a much larger ship with a lot more crew. In game terms, maybe a stern rake causing a crew shock could disable determined defender and maybe  even give a morale penalty in case of boarding. 

[Corax]

I think DD should be even higher % (like it was before nerf) say 50% more crew but like you say it could be temporarily suspended while crew shocked. That would be a nice balance.

Means boarding can still happen when you are fighting bigger ship but you actually have to do something rather than just the 'chain ram and board' 

[Chromey]

look at the boarding mini game.. your gonna have to wait for NA 2 for something this advanced

[Hullabaloo]

Not really. I think he is just saying that DD perk should be temporarily suspended when you are crew shocked. Quite simple to implement i think.

 

[Thonys]

a yes.... the perks......!

this dd is still a ongoing pain in the ash for many

its basic coding ,and it is not on the wish list to improve it for a long time i think .

but it definitely needs some kind of overhaul ...for a better implementation to secure the safety for the young captain /

it would be nice it was be only useable for 7/6/5/4. rate only.

users of the 3/2/1 rate are no rookies or newbies anymore...(for those captains it s more a cheat than a necessity.)

[and that is easy coding to implement( 3/2/1/ rate no access to DD)]

 

the perk system gets a update and overhaul  in the future admin said.... so we just have to wait and see where they come up with .

Edited November 10, 2019 by Thonys

[Prince of Wales]

DD is in a decent place at the minute, the previous nerf from a while ago was defiantly needed lets also remember what other 2 point perks you can take if you choose not to rely on DD, Rigging specialist and Defence Drill come to mind that I would rather run that DD they are much more useful, if you reduce DD even more you may as well remove it due to it becoming too weak compared to the other perks.

[John Cavanaugh]

Hypothetical scenario. You are in bellona. Two trincomalee tag you. You sail close hauled and reverse to deny your stern, but one trinc gets a good rake and a crew shock. The other rushes and boards your side. You are dead quickly as continued takes make the boarding one sided. Compare to now, you have a much better chance to recover from that one miss timed reverse. Is this good change or will it only promote more the ganking and bring back the days of rage boarding?

[Henry Long Castle]

On 11/11/2019 at 7:39 PM, John Cavanaugh said:

Hypothetical scenario. You are in bellona. Two trincomalee tag you. You sail close hauled and reverse to deny your stern, but one trinc gets a good rake and a crew shock. The other rushes and boards your side. You are dead quickly as continued takes make the boarding one sided. Compare to now, you have a much better chance to recover from that one miss timed reverse. Is this good change or will it only promote more the ganking and bring back the days of rage boarding?

Why are you in a line ship alone with no escorts?

[Knuddel]

Determind defender is an unrealistic perk. But a counter Perk would be nice. So evenyou ahve Determind defender you cannt be 100% shure that this will work. Caurse if you have DD you just rely on that and it makes game unrealistic as hell. Or just remove the Determind defender would also Solve that problem. In that Century boats where not sunken by Gunfire but by a Surrendering or B having not enough crew to bail out water or c Boarding. 

[Earl of Grey]

DD is needed to counter the also unrealistic effects of boarding (dropping Sails). Since i lost my aga to 3 Princes that were Chainboarding and raking me i never sail without DD ...

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

On 11/16/2019 at 11:27 AM, Knuddel said:

Determind defender is an unrealistic perk. But a counter Perk would be nice. So evenyou ahve Determind defender you cannt be 100% shure that this will work. Caurse if you have DD you just rely on that and it makes game unrealistic as hell. Or just remove the Determind defender would also Solve that problem. In that Century boats where not sunken by Gunfire but by a Surrendering or B having not enough crew to bail out water or c Boarding. 

True, true. But realism vanishes because of repair and recrew much more in my eyes.

[Chromey]

tough to say. I would have to say no because boarding is powerful enough as is, and alot of people rely on determined defender so, eh, if u wanna board a ship with that many more crew then you then just bring some friends.

[Angus MacDuff]

I'm actually in favour of buffing DD to a large extent (pre-nerf level).  But that's because the boarding initiation mechanic horrifies me.  It is far too easy to initiate boarding and specialized boarders (IMHO) are a cheat.

[John Cavanaugh]

On 11/14/2019 at 4:15 PM, Henry Long Castle said:

Why are you in a line ship alone with no escorts?

Consider the following- 

Bellona, Inger, Aggy, 3rd rate, and especially the Wasa have the firepower, armor, and maneuverability to engage multiple smaller ships and win on the proviso that they can remain moving and deny the stern to the most severe raking, and on the proviso that they can cripple the enemies’ ability to repeatedly disengage and repair. Some speed fitted and/or Elite Spanish rigged 3rd and heavy 4th rated ships are faster than some 5th rates while bringing much more boom. 

If you question this from an historical point, well my friend, you play the game you have. Playing the game that exists only in your mind ends in calling people “Meta-boy” -q.Hethwill- while engaging much heavier ships from the edge of your long 6lb range. 

[erelkivtuadrater]

Perk suggestion -  I would go the way so these perks work with/against each other.

 

Veteran Boarding Party: Can pull for boarding while enemy is in crewshock therefore ignores Determined Defender. Preparation in boarding is boosted by +X% while enemy is in crewshock, Deck difference reduced by x% ( I dont know the base values)

Determined defender: If you crewshock the opponent on his attack, your crew rallies and gain x morale for the next 5 rounds, and your next counterattack deal double damage.

Edited November 21, 2019 by erelkivtuadrater

[Atimk]

Deleted then edited

Edit:
I was thinking about both sided effect. Like, you can not be boarded with less crew, but also can not board enemy with the lesser crew since you're defender not attacker. Turns out it's falwed when two DD ships meet.
 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Atimk
flawed idea

[admin]

DD Saves ships

It is based on brave defence by Redoutable against much bigger crew of HMS Victory. Despite heavy losses Redoutable could not be boarded during the whole battle of Trafalgar.

DD is good for gameplay as it brings you clarity and has the counter (kill more crew and board). It was changed multiple times and even was removed but it always comes back because gameplay is better with it. 

[erelkivtuadrater]

40 minutes ago, admin said:

DD Saves ships

It is based on brave defence by Redoutable against much bigger crew of HMS Victory. Despite heavy losses Redoutable could not be boarded during the whole battle of Trafalgar.

DD is good for gameplay as it brings you clarity and has the counter (kill more crew and board). It was changed multiple times and even was removed but it always comes back because gameplay is better with it. 

what about musket firing that we have in UA: Age of Sail, this is a mechanic that would shine in Naval Action, i also love how you initiate boarding there, where the crew throws grappling hooks to drag the ship closer to them. With determined defender you would see crew men chopping off the Grappling lines.  

[CptYachu]

Pirates took merchant ships with small forces, then why we haven't, example determined attacker perk? Why not do it for pirates?

Edited February 5, 2020 by CptYachu

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

Determined defender should work only if the crew is prepared already or where does the determination come from?

[Montagnes]

56 minutes ago, admin said:

DD Saves ships

It is based on brave defence by Redoutable against much bigger crew of HMS Victory. Despite heavy losses Redoutable could not be boarded during the whole battle of Trafalgar.

DD is good for gameplay as it brings you clarity and has the counter (kill more crew and board). It was changed multiple times and even was removed but it always comes back because gameplay is better with it. 

Gameplay would also improve with more engaging and fun boardings. 

Rock-scissor-paper boardings are a let down compared with the great quaility of the naval combat.

[Henry Long Castle]

13 hours ago, admin said:

DD Saves ships

It is based on brave defence by Redoutable against much bigger crew of HMS Victory. Despite heavy losses Redoutable could not be boarded during the whole battle of Trafalgar.

DD is good for gameplay as it brings you clarity and has the counter (kill more crew and board). It was changed multiple times and even was removed but it always comes back because gameplay is better with it. 

I dont know how much sense it makes if the perk is based on the Redoutable's, well determined defenders, since the Victory and other British ships had more crew than her, but if thats the best you have come up with so far to try and implement that factor into the game then thats what we have to work with. I agree that it makes gameplay better in most situations but like with all things, people find ways of exploiting this mechanic as Im sure they will find ways of exploiting any mechanic you might add/tweak. With that being said I think there is room to improve the balance of the DD perk without reducing the quality of gameplay. I trust that if you put your minds into it you can figure it out @admin.

[Never]

DD is not even hard to counter. So much complaining about it when the counter to it is literally just 1 decent rake in most cases. 

[Henry Long Castle]

11 hours ago, Never said:

DD is not even hard to counter. So much complaining about it when the counter to it is literally just 1 decent rake in most cases. 

Have you tried boarding a ship that has almost 2 times your crew? To grape him enough you need to do several rakes, on each one risking getting a rake in return and/or loosing a mast or two from your opponent that has a much superior broadside than yours. So from my experience you are stuck with him at 60% sails sailing as close hauled as possible and you being much faster staying on his tail giving him mediocre at best stern rakes, killing nowhere near enough crew to be able to board him because of his perk. And you just wish that you could just board him and get it over with, even if he has 100 more crew than you but instead what you get is 1 hour of him repairing and quoting "death by 1000 cuts" memes. It is the most fun when you have finally managed to kill enough crew to try to board him and as you initiate your tackle he uses rum and gets his crew back.

So no, I dont think DD is countered by one decent stern rake most of the times if you are dealing with ships of different rates. On a Christian vs Christian yes, on a Trincomalee vs Bellona, no...

I believe that if someone cant get you off his stern no matter what he does he is as good as dead. Might as well speed up the process.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Henry Long Castle

[Yoha]

DD is just fine. Without it, players would be inclined to simply rageboard other ships since most players are not boarding fit. 

Against a competent boarder with marines, a defender without marines/barricades has almost no chance of survival. If anything DD needs a buff to make it helpful if you get boarded.