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Mooncatt

Number dont matter (Test...of sorts)

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I decided to do a test for this scenario due to the fact im finding it impossible (almost as bad as TB vs BB) it is of course you vs what looks like a modern (ish) BB

Every different build ive tried has failed thus far. the enemy battleship is landing shells consistently over huge distances 30km on avg. this takes me down to an unwinnable situation before I can even get close, im kitted out with the most accurate guns I can along with the best towers, im also using ridiculous amounts of deck armour and belt armour i.e 18" belt 16" deck and hes still tearing through me like im made of paper, even with armour angle. ive come to the conclusion that there must be some kind of "cap" on armour amounts that you get diminishing returns of effectiveness.

so, I decided to test the theory of "the enemy has the same RNG as you do" to prove this as false. I used the debug menu to unlock the same hull as the enemy BB. I kitted it out with 18" triples and some nice side guns. of course, this being the modern BB hull there is only one tower and rear tower to choose from. I tried using both the top range finder that gives 35% long range accuracy and in the second test I tried the next one down that gives "X" base range (cant remember the %) I also think I used the second option of each of the following....

Heavy shells

barbette II

citadel II

bulkheads II 

flooding I

white powder in 1st test (cant remember the rest of what I used)

so, the battle starts and enemy is already in range......30km iirc ive already reduced my speed to a good cruise speed. we both fire and ive got " one eyed willy" aiming my 18s and they aren't even close to landing a hit. his first salvo lands setting me on fire and im now 98% bare in mind im 45 degrees to him and hes almost side on.

second salvo fire and again "one eyed willy" lets me down again and not even getting close. his salvo lands again with 3 shells destroying my barbette, tower and causing flooding in the aft compartment. (this, bare in mind is nearly 30km out!!!! )

third salvo fires and I land a weak hit, partial pen of 18 dmg (using TNT HE shells) and a mild fire. his shells hit me causing severe fire in 2 compartments. im down to like 80% integrity now while he is still 99% I decide to re-evaluate my build and go back. I sacrifice my rather large side guns for a smaller calibre so ive got more room for extra armour. I up the armour an extra inch or so on the main areas, belt and deck. I also manage to increase the extended belt and deck a little.

battle 2.

exactly the same outcome, I cant hit him with the same spec ship but hes landing consistent hits over very long distance causing the same level of dmg as before. ive tried this mission 4-5 times now and its the same everytime. he can hit me at ridiculously long ranges and I cant get anywhere near. by the time I do get anywhere close my ship is almost crippled.

Im not saying that the enemy doesn't have the same RNG but what im trying to prove here is that there must be some kind of minimum rng that enemy has, lets say the enemy will always have a 20% chance of hitting regardless and it will never be any less (mission dependant would be my guess)

if anyone has any theories id be glad to hear them, but for me, if the enemy does indeed have a biased rng that this will be a sad day for me. devs say that they don't, but from what ive seen after speccin my ship to be equal to the enemy and having seen the results over 4-5 tests im very very dubious.

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I played that mission twice, winning both times. Second time I beat it while only getting hit once and I used 16" guns with AP plunging fire. People tend to make their ships huge with tons of turrets which both increases your target signature (enemy gets bonus accuracy towards you) and causes you to have bad roll/pitch which negatively affects your accuracy. Also use cruising speed and try not to sail downwind as your funnel smoke will interfere with your targeting.

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helpful, thanks mate, ill deffo try again. although the point of the post was really about enemy RNG vs your RNG. the tests ive conducted were as even as I could make them. ive done 5 tests and all yielded the same results irrelevant of wind direction. surely if ive built a BB equal in size and firepower I should be landing hits equal to the enemy? this simply isn't whats happening, hes consistenty landing shots at 30km where as im not even getting close.

I also said in my OP that I was using cruise speed nothing made any difference

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Number matters.

Just strip the armor/engine of your ships, use only the biggest main guns with the best radar/director and build as many as you can. Stay at range, fire HE and enjoy your pretty easy victory (You'll probably need one or two trys if the insane enemy accuracy ammorack too much of your gun platforms)

As for the "biased" rng, I think it's a bit too soon to tell. It's just rng after all. With only two or three "tests" you can't really tell something when there is so many thing that depends on chance in these kind of encounter. I trust the dev for this one and never noticed something out of the ordinary, but if you want to prove them wrong come back with more data.

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A bit to my surprise I finished that on the first attempt using two smaller battleships, each with three turrets of twin 18inch guns. I went at full Flank speed to make them harder to hit and tight formation for the small accuracy bonus that gives. This worked pretty well and I was consistently landing more hits than the enemy. In the end it seemed like an easy victory, although I doubt anyone would build battleships like that in the real world! 😁

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6 hours ago, Mooncatt said:

I decided to do a test for this scenario due to the fact im finding it impossible (almost as bad as TB vs BB) it is of course you vs what looks like a modern (ish) BB

Every different build ive tried has failed thus far. the enemy battleship is landing shells consistently over huge distances 30km on avg. this takes me down to an unwinnable situation before I can even get close, im kitted out with the most accurate guns I can along with the best towers, im also using ridiculous amounts of deck armour and belt armour i.e 18" belt 16" deck and hes still tearing through me like im made of paper, even with armour angle. ive come to the conclusion that there must be some kind of "cap" on armour amounts that you get diminishing returns of effectiveness.

so, I decided to test the theory of "the enemy has the same RNG as you do" to prove this as false. I used the debug menu to unlock the same hull as the enemy BB. I kitted it out with 18" triples and some nice side guns. of course, this being the modern BB hull there is only one tower and rear tower to choose from. I tried using both the top range finder that gives 35% long range accuracy and in the second test I tried the next one down that gives "X" base range (cant remember the %) I also think I used the second option of each of the following....

Heavy shells

barbette II

citadel II

bulkheads II 

flooding I

white powder in 1st test (cant remember the rest of what I used)

so, the battle starts and enemy is already in range......30km iirc ive already reduced my speed to a good cruise speed. we both fire and ive got " one eyed willy" aiming my 18s and they aren't even close to landing a hit. his first salvo lands setting me on fire and im now 98% bare in mind im 45 degrees to him and hes almost side on.

second salvo fire and again "one eyed willy" lets me down again and not even getting close. his salvo lands again with 3 shells destroying my barbette, tower and causing flooding in the aft compartment. (this, bare in mind is nearly 30km out!!!! )

third salvo fires and I land a weak hit, partial pen of 18 dmg (using TNT HE shells) and a mild fire. his shells hit me causing severe fire in 2 compartments. im down to like 80% integrity now while he is still 99% I decide to re-evaluate my build and go back. I sacrifice my rather large side guns for a smaller calibre so ive got more room for extra armour. I up the armour an extra inch or so on the main areas, belt and deck. I also manage to increase the extended belt and deck a little.

battle 2.

exactly the same outcome, I cant hit him with the same spec ship but hes landing consistent hits over very long distance causing the same level of dmg as before. ive tried this mission 4-5 times now and its the same everytime. he can hit me at ridiculously long ranges and I cant get anywhere near. by the time I do get anywhere close my ship is almost crippled.

Im not saying that the enemy doesn't have the same RNG but what im trying to prove here is that there must be some kind of minimum rng that enemy has, lets say the enemy will always have a 20% chance of hitting regardless and it will never be any less (mission dependant would be my guess)

if anyone has any theories id be glad to hear them, but for me, if the enemy does indeed have a biased rng that this will be a sad day for me. devs say that they don't, but from what ive seen after speccin my ship to be equal to the enemy and having seen the results over 4-5 tests im very very dubious.

No, it doesn't work that way.  The enemy may have a different tech level, however, which might mean access to radar that you don't have if you take the extra funds option.

Edited by akd
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Have played enough missions to know RNG isn't biased, it only seems like that because of many things like when Tech you chose, weather, waves, ship design pitch and roll matters a lot, speed, size, range, gun type and mark... Choosing the biggest gun isn't always the best choice and on and on the list goes.

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Yeah, what RHDK said. I went with biggest=bestest my first few games and learned quickly that sometimes you want smaller or dual gun turrets.

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well, ive finished the mission. took 2 attempts but I got there, the first try was against a BB with 21.6 armour. so I managed to get it down to 40% with white powder as I knew my AP shells were going to be of little use, but after that,shot after shot did nothing to his integrity. so I went back and built 2 BC with x4 dual 18" (same as before) with x4 (2 each side) 9" dual side guns, plus x2 8" dual.

I then reduced my speed to 34knts, switched out the white powder for TNT as I had funds to spare and slightly increased the armour (cant remember exactly but around 14" belt and slightly higher on the deck.) it worked like a charm, I kept my speed at flank (I know that's not always a good idea) but he couldn't hit me. close the distance to about 25km and I land shot after shot. I was lucky enough to take out all 5 of his 16" triples, so he was a sitting duck after that, the TNT worked well. on this 2nd attempt I was lucky enough to only worry about his 16" armour, so once the HE became ineffective due to the closer range I went to AP, still quite a lot of bouncing shots but the ones that did pen did good dmg once I got rid of the heavy shells and used super heavy. all in all I had 2 BC one was completely undamaged and the other was at 92% by the time id finished.

thanks for all the advice guys, I appreciate it.

fair seas to you all

 

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When you mouse over your opponent, or click on them, you can see the quality of guns they're using and also their hit rate at the time, although that one's a bit misleading.

Given you can't call up the same detailed info you can for your ship, you can't see all the modifiers, and there are quite a lot of them.

Any given hull has a bunch of characteristics before you put anything on it, for example, and then what you do with it in terms of total tonnage, weight distribution (note pitch and roll), towers, speed and so on all contribute to how it will be affected by weather, sea state and so on.

It's all in the builder in the data on the right side of screen, with often pretty decent tooltips that explain the significance of the specific number unless self-explanatory.

You probably know all that, but would be interesting to know what its hit rate was v yours on some of your failed attempts.

Plus, of course, the sorts of accuracy the late stage tech gives is fancifully over the top.

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Basicly what helps is to have decent speed (30kts +- 3 no less than 27kts it is easy target)
16" guns
no casement guns they increase the roll to a silly degree. you must have pew pew secondaries then take 8" turrets and only 6 at max (3 per side) no more than this will keep the roll in place.
4 to 5 turrets (center lined) Armor can be something like this.
20" belt 15" extended
6" deck 4" extended
Krup armor (to make the ship light as possible)
(make the ship light as possible),
Heavy shells (forget super heavy),
No torps, Barbets are nice but not really needed, Citadel protection can be taken if you can afford it,
Extra hull bottoms... bad idea, Torpedo protection is ok idea if you can afford it and take it.
Keep the tonnage some what reasonable. Too long ships turns like brick. Making the ship compact size keeps it alive longer as well allows you to use cheeky turrets as additional armor (spaced).
Try to keep the ship as stable as possible. (lessens the max speed penalty)

That's how i have managed to complete most of the missions were dreads and battle cruisers are used.
CA and CL designs needs more testing :P They tend to cook the ammo for breakfast. (i suck at them)

 

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@Mooncatt you're comparison is totally invalid as the enemy 18" guns are mark V which puts them leagues above anything you have access too currently.

unknown.png

Edit: Not only that but I won that mission first time out with 4 15" armed battleships in 4x3 gun arrangements.

Edited by Absolute0CA
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57 minutes ago, Absolute0CA said:

@Mooncatt you're comparison is totally invalid as the enemy 18" guns are mark V which puts them leagues above anything you have access too currently.

Edit: Not only that but I won that mission first time out with 4 15" armed battleships in 4x3 gun arrangements.

Those guns, tonnage, armour and speed. Yikes, powered by a nuke plant?

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1 hour ago, Steeltrap said:

Those guns, tonnage, armour and speed. Yikes, powered by a nuke plant?

Nope just regular ole oil boilers.

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I've won it twice with two battleships armed with 15 inch guns in twin turrets. 16 inches belt armor, 8 inches deck and 18 inches conning tower. Many bulkheads and 32 knots speed. Headed almost straight for him so any hit on the belt would have max chance to deflect. DDs also going straight for him at top speed. Let one group use smoke so that your battleships gets a couple of minutes cover by that. Try to make one or two DDs launch an early volley of torpedoes to catch his attention. The moment he turns his big guns on them is the best time to go full broadside with your battleships. Use HE and hope to damage him enough to ruin his aim. The last time I got lucky and destroyed his front tower. After that he was unable to target me at beyond 22km. It was easy after that since I had also damaged his funnels.

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12 hours ago, Absolute0CA said:

@Mooncatt you're comparison is totally invalid as the enemy 18" guns are mark V which puts them leagues above anything you have access too currently.

unknown.png

Edit: Not only that but I won that mission first time out with 4 15" armed battleships in 4x3 gun arrangements.

omg, dat accuracy doe, basically aimbotting lol.

imagine what mark 6 guns or higher would be.

or even 19 and 20 inch gns.

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8 hours ago, Cptbarney said:

omg, dat accuracy doe, basically aimbotting lol.

imagine what mark 6 guns or higher would be.

or even 19 and 20 inch gns.

In some ways the current version of late game tech is more broken than our issues with the accuracy of secondary/casemate guns in earlier days.

Not invincible, and probably would take ages to repair and cost a bomb, but a bit worrying even so.

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12 hours ago, Nereng said:

DDs also going straight for him at top speed. Let one group use smoke so that your battleships gets a couple of minutes cover by that. 

Could even split the DDs out of formation so you can run smoke from 1 at a time at the head of your BB column. Not sure how it handles line of sight penalties to a target that has a smokescreen between it and you, but it really ought to be just as effective as being "in" the smoke.

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