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Cetric de Cornusiac

Early starting of Hostility missions as an exploit - need fix

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Today a lot of nations competed for the conquest of El Soco, on PvE peace server.

I arrived early on location and waited before official time window startet at 19 hrs UTC. Had opportunity to watch the scenery with other nations.

To my bewilderment I witnessed Spanish players and Prussian players each starting theirs about one hour before official start. Saw the symbol for hostility mission in OW.

We started at the proper time.

Later in battle I heard Spain won the port battle for El Soco. And obviously because of this exploit to start a hostility mission battle before due time window begins.

This needs to be fixed #admin , as it means cheating.

Make it so that hostility missions appear ONLY in that minute when timer window is scheduled for that port, for all player nations alike, not sooner.

Edited by Cetric de Cornusiac
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Official hostility window was 19:00 to 22:00.

We entered at 19:00, and when we came out of our battle (GB), the Spaniards had already spawned the port battle at 19:01 the following day.

This is very unreasonable.

Edited by Ortac
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Pretty simple mechanism and not an exploit....more like well organized.  Not that I (pirate) was part of it, but a little bit of logic thinking and you know what they did.

There is a lot to fix in this game...but it's not a dev's job to stop players thinking.

Edited by Jan van Santen
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exploit, mechanism, tactic call it whatever you like but if a window is set for 19:00 surely that should be the actual stat time.

 

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Hostility is meant to be working like that. If the window is set for 19.00, players need to get out of the hostility mission at that time in order to collect points, not to start it.

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Know issue in PVP and this is not an exploit because battle starts in his timer. The only way to make a battle one minute after the timer beggins, is star the battle before. Therefore, if you start a hostility long before the timer ends, and you end a minute later, the port cant gain hostility. Is imposible make a balanced mechanichs in this case.

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Oh yes it is possible to make a balanced mechanic. Make hostility symbol (clickable) spawn like port battle event at correct time. Not a second sooner. Does not sound like rocket science to me to adjust this.

Or would you think that it is fair if on a race track runners can do headstarts as they please (why not half a minute before start) and not wait for the start signal? No, such headstart results in disqualification, and so it has to be applied here if we want to uphold any claim the rules are trying to implement fairness in the competition.

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33 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Oh yes it is possible to make a balanced mechanic. Make hostility symbol (clickable) spawn like port battle event at correct time. Not a second sooner. Does not sound like rocket science to me to adjust this.

Or would you think that it is fair if on a race track runners can do headstarts as they please (why not half a minute before start) and not wait for the start signal? No, such headstart results in disqualification, and so it has to be applied here if we want to uphold any claim the rules are trying to implement fairness in the competition.

You can suggest all mechanics changes that you consider as a correct, i only said that is not an exploit without disqualifications

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44 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Oh yes it is possible to make a balanced mechanic. Make hostility symbol (clickable) spawn like port battle event at correct time. Not a second sooner. Does not sound like rocket science to me to adjust this.

Or would you think that it is fair if on a race track runners can do headstarts as they please (why not half a minute before start) and not wait for the start signal? No, such headstart results in disqualification, and so it has to be applied here if we want to uphold any claim the rules are trying to implement fairness in the competition.

Sailboat races start exactly the way port battle hostilities work, just to show a real world analog.   You start behind the line and are allowed to begin moving whenever, wherever, and however fast you'd like...  so long as you  don't cross the starting line before the starting time.  If you cross early, there's a stiff penalty.

That's how hostility missions work - you can pull the mission and enter it whenever you want, but if you wrap it up too early, you won't get the points counted... so you have to make the last kill within 15 minutes of the intended time to exit the mission, then pop out as soon as the timer window is open.  

Once you understand the mechanic, you see how to use it.  I'm not arguing that it's the right mechanic - obviously it sounds like more fun for everyone to begin the missions  at the same time and race to complete them, rather than everyone to begin the missions an hour early  and race to click the 'leave battle' button once the server time clicks over.   So the suggestion to change it is a good one, in my opinion.  But it's  NOT a bug or exploit, it's just a mechanic that could be improved, and wording  your suggestion that way is more likely  to get a meaningful discussion started with the devs.   

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Me i think, when we want fleep a port we must all use this mechanic :) and be ready 1 hour before, is just a mechanic to known.

After known this isssue is easy to adapt and organize the fleet for that:)

Edited by Brontes
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So, you advocates for keeping it as is and use this exploit, are saying that you start a battle before the windows open, and leave one person in the battle to leave said battle exactly when the time window opens? And this should not be fixed? Interesting.

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4 minutes ago, van der Clam said:

So, you advocates for keeping it as is and use this exploit, are saying that you start a battle before the windows open, and leave one person in the battle to leave said battle exactly when the time window opens? And this should not be fixed? Interesting.

hostility missions dont work in that way. only the guys with kills in hostilities missions make damage to flip a port, and this damage only count when they leave battle.

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Just now, Wraith said:

How is this an exploit? This is the definition of a mechanic. Just because a few players did not understand the mechanic doesn't make it an exploit.

Now they do, and they can use the mechanic as it has worked since hostility was introduced just like everyone else.

totally agree, it is not an exploit

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I saw this as well. I was on the spot at El Soco when I witnessed one nation enter well in advance of the specific hostility window time openning. To be honest I'm not sure how long in advance but definately well ahead of the specified time. I have seen this before where a nation entered the battle in advance of the timed start. I tend to agree this may not be an exploit but rather game-mechanic understanding and the same rule applies to everyone however, it will be nice if the timer changed from exiting to entering hostility missions. So, only those entering after the timed start will get credit for the hostility points earned. 

 

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5 hours ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

And because of having cheated, the port battle won by SKULL should be disqualified and timer window reset for another day.

Yes,  and a couple of other missions that where entered in before the timer started. 

 

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I have officiated a several regattas (boat race), our starting policey is: boats must be stationary behind the start line, NOT in motion. If a boat is pushed, blown or otherwise set into motion crossing the start line by causes due to unavoidable accidents the judges will render a time penalty or in some cases excused. If the crew claims an objection their reasons can be considered but the judges decision is final. If you applied this to hostility missions; points should only count when the timer starts not before. 

 

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7 hours ago, Wraith said:

How is this an exploit? This is the definition of a mechanic. Just because a few players did not understand the mechanic doesn't make it an exploit.

Now they do, and they can use the mechanic as it has worked since hostility was introduced just like everyone else.

"because a few players did not understand the mechanic"??

Whole nations did not know about it.

Or how do you explain France, Britain and Russians did not do the same but waited faithfully for the starting signal at 19 hrs UTC?

It is an exploit.

It is not fair.

And it is nothing PvP heroes can be proud of to have discovered and EXPLOITED for months or years. That does not make it legal.

In fact YOU failed to have that circumvention ruled out by telling devs it is not fair, so now we PvE people have to do the homework for you, long overdue.

We only want equal chances for all competitors. Here every competitor is doomed to fail if he just follows the time window, what any normal people (and newbies in general) would do. And those using the mechanism which is here in the thread whitewashed by you cheat on them who follow fairness. Not acceptable and needs a fix. If symbols appear at the right minute and nobody could score kills beforehand, we would not have this discussion and things were clear as daylight.

In general, it is not permissible that a clan or nation enjoys advantages by knowing mechanism/exploit/(insert your favorite whitewash word) others don't know. And there are NO RULES described in any tutorial etc which informs the general public of the legalized abuse of headstarts. So - some have the advantage, some don't have it. Hidden rule mechanisms which are crucial for winning or not winning, which are nowhere officially described and thus legalized, are illegal. And from sport point of view  unfair! I have attended a number of hostility missions before and nowhere I have seen the same.

Edited by Cetric de Cornusiac

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The rules is same for all. All can use this, so is not an exploit, is just a mechanic to use ;)

And the next all will use this mechanic, that all. 

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Only devs can determine whether or not it is an exploit.  Depends on if they intended the mechanic to work this way or not.  However, those intentionally using this to their advantage while others don't know about it, is dishonest whether it's an exploit or not.

Simple workaround IMO would be Cetric's suggestion of a timer, or otherwise I would offer that hostility could be based upon damage delivered during the hostility time window instead of kills.  Anything done beforehand therefore wouldn't count because the damage was early.

Edited by Papillon

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Better would be we fight for investment rights instead an exclusive port ownership, on the PVE server.

That will bring back peace to the peace server. I see this thread here and i will wait for the next, regarding the time windows for hostility missions. Thats for some players at working or sleeping time, for me it seems unfair too. Also, what about small clans?

Simply do not let any clan or nation take over the ports, but let them earn investment rights. That with the same battles like we have now. So nobody can block the interests of others. As it is now, it brings toxic mindset, that should not exist on the PVE.

Do not get me wrong, before i used to be an opponent of the portboni, meanwhile I like them too, so thanks a lot to the devs that we got this and with them new game goals.

Edited by Holm Hansen

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People on PvE don't know all the PB mechanics. They probably will learn it.

But yes: On PvE binding to nations seems obsolete since nationality doesn't really mean anything in a peaceful world.

PvE is PvE, it doesn't need any kind of - even non combatant - PvP.

I love Holms idea. I'd love to see clan-hostility and the option to fight for investment rights and to defend it, no matter who else is there.

I would imagine (dream of) the following (PvE only) system:

  1.  A reputation system for clans. Each Port (or region) has a standing with each clan (hostile, neutral, welcome, allied). Enemy Ports start out hostile, ports of the own nation neutral. A hostile ports defense will fire if in range, a neutral and welcome won't, an allied would help against other Ships of "neutral" nations. The ports offer Clan-Missions (e.g. group cargo for 3+Indiamen, Group-Kill,... and trade(!) measured in reals revenue delivered/bought goods) to raise the standing, abandoning would lower the standing. If a clan is welcome in a town, it can invest ~60% of the available points, if allied 100% or more. Or a welcome clan could invest in Materials and an allied in shipyard,... however. The standing is lowered by attacking NPC coming from / sailing to the port (eg. to do a mission for another port).
  2.  Ports gain their wealth from more than one clan so there is no "taking the port from another clan/nation"
  3.  Port Battles happen from time to time, if the NPC raiders / foreign fleets decide to reduce a specific clans influence. Of course the Battle-Outcome could change a lot for all clans present in there.         E.g. A british flotilla attacks the french Terre-de-Bas and doesn't get defeated, a british governor would be sent there and all but the british clans loose standing with the Port back one level. That would hurt for a while, bur not do any real harm, as the investments wouldn't be lost - just unavailable until the clans gain reputation with the new governor. Ont he other hand a combined fleet of french and/or other nations clans could have repelled the attack and saved the french harbour with a reputation gain for all participating clans. On larger settlements there could be multiple (3/5/7) Battles to have more people/clans participate and the average outcome or a final battle counts for government.

Peace Server anyway should stay free of PvP or anything that rages people. It exists to relax, to enjoy a trip to the carribean, to run out the guns and to have a sense of achievment each day.

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12 hours ago, Wraith said:

How is this an exploit? This is the definition of a mechanic. Just because a few players did not understand the mechanic doesn't make it an exploit.

Now they do, and they can use the mechanic as it has worked since hostility was introduced just like everyone else.

I meant to put exploit in quotes. My bad.

7 hours ago, Wraith said:

But that is how it works.  Hostility can't be accrued until you're within a timer window.  It just so happens that hostility points are accrued based on your kills upon battle exit, and as long as you exit within the timer window, you get the credit.  What's wrong with that?  The earliest you could start a hostility mission is an hour and half + 15 minutes prior to the timer window opening.

Easy peasey.

But, this is the point of the OP. It does not make sense that Hostility is based on Battle End Time, rather than Battle Start Time. It makes it impossible for anyone to defend hostility battles without Combat News informing us of raising hostility (on PvP). Altho, considering an enormous fleet could raise hostility in one battle anyway, so we still wouldn't get notified. But it's still weird to see a Time Window have a Start Time and End Time that does not correspond with Battle Start Time and Battle End Time.

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2 minutes ago, van der Clam said:

But, this is the point of the OP. It does not make sense that Hostility is based on Battle End Time, rather than Battle Start Time. It makes it impossible for anyone to defend hostility battles without Combat News informing us of raising hostility (on PvP).

It makes as much sense as anything else does. The timer window is intended to constrain port battle times. That’s it. If you’re worried about hostility then keep an eye out for open hostility missions.

The point of hostility missions as I see them is to provide opportunities for PvP, and set a barrier of commitment and resources for actually setting a port battle (combat false flags etc.).

If the port battle can’t occur outside the timer window then the mechanic is working as intended.

Now, we can debate the merit and mechanic of hostility all you want, but it isn’t an exploit.

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