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Seeing there is a hot debate in the Carriers thread, I want to bring your attention, once again to land based aviation.The game is about ships, but ships of the period had to confront the reality of l

Valid point. Also if this game has similarities to the age of sail version. We might have naval landings (i do hope for them). Age of sail in the end was sail boats ^^ (enough side track) Own ca

true, land aviation was important especially in Europe. But I can already tell you that the people against CV would also complain about land base planes because "oh no my BB was hit by something

5 hours ago, Illya von Einzbern said:

By the way. CVs are not the only thing we have out there. BBVs any ore CAVs ^^

That would be interesting to implement too be honest.

Hope we can get dat chonky 105k-120k ton hull thats in the newest mission at somepoint.

Imagine a carrier that big ww1-ww2 style.

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i wouldnt mind CVs but im afraid they would screw up balancing

we already have a dreadnoughts game which needs to be finished once thats done we can think about carriers

 

though id want to be able to build and fight with cvs them being abstract just kinda takes away from it all and makes cvs into more of an rpg like ability rather than an actual combat unit

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There could also be blimps to attack, and they could be able to relay spotting data to an enemy fleet. This could be a way to test aerial mechanics as well, and would give early AA some use, like using 2 or 3 inch guns to shoot it down. Also, German blimps could be extra explosive¬†( Õ°¬į Õú Ė Õ°¬į)

USS Shenandoah in 1922

USS Shenandoah NAS San Diego.jpg

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On 11/5/2019 at 2:30 AM, Pterry said:

There could also be blimps to attack, and they could be able to relay spotting data to an enemy fleet. This could be a way to test aerial mechanics as well, and would give early AA some use, like using 2 or 3 inch guns to shoot it down. Also, German blimps could be extra explosive¬†( Õ°¬į Õú Ė Õ°¬į)

USS Shenandoah in 1922

USS Shenandoah NAS San Diego.jpg

Yes, they certainly were a thing for recon at sea, particularly WW1 of course.

I was interested when reading "Clear the Bridge", Richard O'Kane's book about his command of USS Tang, that the USA was using them for naval patrols off the mainland. He described how they had one "escorting" Tang for part of his trip from the mainland to Pearl with its main function being to make it clear to any other aircraft that the submarine nearby was obviously friendly.

As to shooting them down, I thought the German ones were too high for early WW1 AA guns to be much good, but I could be entirely incorrect as I've never checked that.

I am entirely fine with recon planes. Only questions/concerns I have regard attack planes.

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Attack planes won't be too much of a problem.
AAs main job basically is to make thick wall of flack to stop fool pilots from pushing thru.
That's when strength in numbers comes to play after all you can only seal so many strike passages with limited AA mounts.

Carrie attack planes would also have another main issue and that is that the planes are it's ammo. (no literally). So carrier pilots would do their best to preserve the plane and own life hence why carrier planes had to harass ships for hours before they could do significant damage. Naturally surprise attacks on unaware ships were more devastating which should not come as a surprise (no pun intended).

All in all i am more than satisfied just to have planes to harass and provide vision. Smaller ships alone are prime targets which i won't mind losing who care if some pleb DDs get's shank.
CL and CAs would have ok AA but not good enough to wholly prevent planes from attempting attacks.
Dual purpose secondaries and the fireworks they can produce... man i am moist to see those :D
So for the gun effects are nice which is another reason i want planes/ CVs just to enjoy some visual pleasure along side with good sounds.

Balance vise.... As long as it is not Hollywood effective (bloody new murrican war movies...) then i am cool with it. Do CVs need to shreck BBs? Don't really care if they do minimal damage as any damage you can deal is more than 0. Will they kill DDs? Naturally and should be easy if low in numbers or not specialized on AA action. CV should utilize strength in numbers to push thru AA blockades. This should apply to all planes.

Zeppelins? why the heck not 
Kuvahaun tulos: naval zeppelin"

Naval zeppelin in battle of Juttland (No planes/ aviation used eh? CV phobics :P)

Kuvahaun tulos: naval zeppelin

German zeppelin bombing English battleship :P (i am sure that crew yelled please nurf).
But yeah gib zepzeps and planes ^^

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anything that can go 30+ knots and launch attacks from 150 miles away will make the game just CV v CV... I have that game already, I have several.  Now a good Dreadnaught game?  I don't have that.  If they do have CVs, they really shouldn't show up on the real-time combat screen.  Their attack choices happen outside the visible battlefield, so why bother animating AA vs bombers?  Just auto-resolve AA vs Squadrons and generate the result.  

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39 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

anything that can go 30+ knots and launch attacks from 150 miles away will make the game just CV v CV... I have that game already, I have several.  Now a good Dreadnaught game?  I don't have that.  If they do have CVs, they really shouldn't show up on the real-time combat screen.  Their attack choices happen outside the visible battlefield, so why bother animating AA vs bombers?  Just auto-resolve AA vs Squadrons and generate the result.  

I don't understand why autoresolve is suppose to be better balance wise then in game battle...

surely it feels worse to simply get told "your BB has been sunk by RNG Air attack" then  to fight, evade, shooting aircraft done and then getting hits...

 

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1 hour ago, Lobokai said:

anything that can go 30+ knots and launch attacks from 150 miles away will make the game just CV v CV... I have that game already, I have several.  Now a good Dreadnaught game?  I don't have that.  If they do have CVs, they really shouldn't show up on the real-time combat screen.  Their attack choices happen outside the visible battlefield, so why bother animating AA vs bombers?  Just auto-resolve AA vs Squadrons and generate the result.  

Name them plz i can only think of one game that lets you customize your ships like this game and has carriers in. Funny thing same games predecessor is the exact same one your calling for but no carriers so plz enlighten us to these many games.

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4 hours ago, DarkTerren said:

Name them plz i can only think of one game that lets you customize your ships like this game and has carriers in. Funny thing same games predecessor is the exact same one your calling for but no carriers so plz enlighten us to these many games.

He said he already has games that are CV v CV. He didn't claim they were the same as this game, so asking for him to show examples of CV games with this game's mechanics is asking him to prove a case he was never making. 

I myself have made the same observation about CV warfare being inherently different, with things such as "Carriers at War".

Nobody has claimed CV games with the mechanics of these games, and for good reason; no CV games needed these mechanics because CV warfare was far more about spotting targets and control of your squadrons. How many main guns, secondary guns etc were simply not important precisely because aircraft striking from 160km or more made them moot.

That doesn't mean games whose central focus is CV warfare aren't fun, they can be. Hell, I used to play board games like "Victory in the Pacific" and "Midway" yet also "Jutland". The latter vastly different from the former two, yet all great fun. All years before people owned PCs, too.

It's the same old discussion: if CVs are done "properly" will they inevitably make everything else subordinate when it comes to projecting naval power? If that's the case, what's to be done for people who are looking for a gunnery game?

I thought we'd settled on the idea that if added we'd like to be able to turn them off so that way everyone's happy.

Given what the devs have said to date I doubt it matters overly what we say about it either way. Given most recent post about there being 3 of them in the team and working toward Steam early release I'd say if they're going to put aircraft in they must have a view on how. I suspect, however, it's a significant amount of work to do correctly and I rather suspect it's the sort of thing they'll look to develop and add post release.

Cheers

 

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I disagree the main draw of this game is the customization. It is an important part. So you cant separate them. If your so worried about cvs making ships obsolete you might as well remove all the destroyers and crusiers. The final missions already show that BB make every other class obsolete.  Also unlike some im still going to play the game if i dont get what i want . You want a good game that has all this without the carrier you have rule the waves 1. 

I plan on picking up rtw2 instead of the first one since carriers are  in

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15 hours ago, DarkTerren said:

Name them plz i can only think of one game that lets you customize your ships like this game and has carriers in. Funny thing same games predecessor is the exact same one your calling for but no carriers so plz enlighten us to these many games.

Battleship Craft and Naval Craft. Both were on iOS and had even more customization then on here

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if you are scared of planes then make AA BB just like i made a 8x 5 per side torpedo battleship and booy.
20km torps on a yamato is just fine. In campaign with all techs researched you have 50% hit chance at 39km. Balanced? you know a cruiser can't even get 20km range before they A. are crippled. B. Out right whipped out.
Carriers could provide vision on this sniper as well give a chance to do some sort of damage to make the aim sway. I did that. you can already heck even a dataminer managed to pull that out.
Like i said before. You can turn this game in to boring 40km sniper duel with no need of having light ship (no point having unnecessary screeners) and very boring from tactical aspect. Planes, carriers, submarines and forts would provide more nuances.

Bland RNG sniper duels are boring as hell. Managed to fall a sleep because of this or cook food coz my sniper BB can handle it just by auto cruising. Is that the game you want?
A bland boring sniper duels? something you can run on background with minimal input??
That is massive massive waste of games potential and good game for human like entities that struggles to make coffee while counting the portion.

Best times in the game is when you are going yolo. Planes would be a redeeming factor for late game.
Age of sail does not struggle of this due to the fact of having forts, naval landings and so on.

CV phobics could just take the Mk.1 eye ball out from Hollywood fantasy ship kills and from accursed WT and so on.
Planes took bloody ages to sink ships that were prepared for AA action. And if you use some port strikes as example that would simply be silly. Pearl was good example of CV op yada yada yada.
Unprepared ships are easy targets, even a squad of army soldiers can sink a ship if ship was not prepared or aware. (humas OP muh BB sank.. I agree nerf Mk.1 eye ball so it can't see Hollywood fantasy...).

Planes are good thing, Zeplins are good thing, blimps awesome, aviation and forts good ideas. Sniper dueling supper ships.... just no. I thought this was tactical game not Sniper elite with big guns.
Planes and diverse tactics are good. If i want to do sniper duels i could just go play "from abyss" and be done. 
 

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2 hours ago, Illya von Einzbern said:

if you are scared of planes then make AA BB just like i made a 8x 5 per side torpedo battleship and booy.
20km torps on a yamato is just fine. In campaign with all techs researched you have 50% hit chance at 39km. Balanced? you know a cruiser can't even get 20km range before they A. are crippled. B. Out right whipped out.
Carriers could provide vision on this sniper as well give a chance to do some sort of damage to make the aim sway. I did that. you can already heck even a dataminer managed to pull that out.
Like i said before. You can turn this game in to boring 40km sniper duel with no need of having light ship (no point having unnecessary screeners) and very boring from tactical aspect. Planes, carriers, submarines and forts would provide more nuances.

Bland RNG sniper duels are boring as hell. Managed to fall a sleep because of this or cook food coz my sniper BB can handle it just by auto cruising. Is that the game you want?
A bland boring sniper duels? something you can run on background with minimal input??
That is massive massive waste of games potential and good game for human like entities that struggles to make coffee while counting the portion.

Best times in the game is when you are going yolo. Planes would be a redeeming factor for late game.
Age of sail does not struggle of this due to the fact of having forts, naval landings and so on.

CV phobics could just take the Mk.1 eye ball out from Hollywood fantasy ship kills and from accursed WT and so on.
Planes took bloody ages to sink ships that were prepared for AA action. And if you use some port strikes as example that would simply be silly. Pearl was good example of CV op yada yada yada.
Unprepared ships are easy targets, even a squad of army soldiers can sink a ship if ship was not prepared or aware. (humas OP muh BB sank.. I agree nerf Mk.1 eye ball so it can't see Hollywood fantasy...).

Planes are good thing, Zeplins are good thing, blimps awesome, aviation and forts good ideas. Sniper dueling supper ships.... just no. I thought this was tactical game not Sniper elite with big guns.
Planes and diverse tactics are good. If i want to do sniper duels i could just go play "from abyss" and be done. 
 

the only thing which would keep smaller ships relevant in the later campaign would be the anti submarine abilities. And while I understand (base on my Pacific Storm experince= why Sub's aren't battle playable, it doesn't sound like a mechanic I will enjoy too much. 

 

But as "modern battleship" shows: no ship which hasn't radar 2 and big guns has the slightest bit of hope. No DDs come close enough to have the slightest hope to damage a such BB but will be massacred. 

Making them important for AA screens would enhanced they role ingame.

 

Also I don't think that the "oh the poor people who want gun only game" argument holds up.

Not only could they enjoy the game without any problems till the late game, I don't think CV's will be viable till the 30ties, they could mode them out (if there isn't an option to deactivated it) or simply work to make they gun ships work.

Also the real admirals, and you are the "ultimate admiral" when you play this game, couldn't turn off CV's or planes because it ruins they favored style...

otherwise  I think Germany would have taken that option... Italy as well. Thou I suppose that then Uk would have deactivate Submarines and Japan would deactivate Radar...

 

Not sure what would have been left in W2 if nation could have turn off "features" but here we go.

 

For my CV's only threaten the game balance in the endgame and if badly balance.

The later avoidable.

 

Land base planes for example should be very ineffective unless you park your fleet next to the enemy homeland in which case you deserve whats coming to you...

Because long range strategic bombing was really ineffective in WW2 considering the amount of resources spend on next to the hit ratio.

The channel dash is a famous example how a fleet could "sail" in bright daylight through the chancel with no Bomber doing anything to any ship.

 

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3 hours ago, Pterry said:

Battleship Craft and Naval Craft. Both were on iOS and had even more customization then on here

Both are released and not in early closed alpha nor on PC. I get your point but its like comparing apples to oranges.

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Just now, Cptbarney said:

Both are released and not in early closed alpha nor on PC. I get your point but its like comparing apples to oranges.

I actually think you missed his...

he was suppose to bring examples of games not alphas with CV customization and he apparently did. 

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10 minutes ago, SiWi said:

Also the real admirals, and you are the "ultimate admiral" when you play this game, couldn't turn off CV's or planes because it ruins they favored style...

otherwise  I think Germany would have taken that option... Italy as well. Thou I suppose that then Uk would have deactivate Submarines and Japan would deactivate Radar...

 

Not sure what would have been left in W2 if nation could have turn off "features" but here we go.

 

 

 

Well considering its singleplayer atm theres no excuse not to have options to disable such things.

If its multiplayer then sure whatever, but in a singleplayer game? let the player decide.

I think we should focus more on the here now with dreadnoughts and BB's, i would like CV's but i realise that getting the game up to par first is more important.

Hope i dont sound condisending at all.

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1 minute ago, SiWi said:

I actually think you missed his...

he was suppose to bring examples of games not alphas with CV customization and he apparently did. 

Oh no i understood his point but its pointless, you litterally comparing apples and oranges the game hasnt been released yet and therefore we have no clue what the game will turn out 3-12 months from this exact date.

It's why we have to be patient about things, i think peeps are forgetting the insanely large scope of the game coupled with an insanely small dev team.

If this game was a full release then sure i would agree but since it hasn't even reached stage 3 of being an indev closed alpha test its hardly fair nor logical to compare it to fully released games with multiple updates from said release.

I hope you understand where im coming from.

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2 minutes ago, Cptbarney said:

Well considering its singleplayer atm theres no excuse not to have options to disable such things.

If its multiplayer then sure whatever, but in a singleplayer game? let the player decide.

I think we should focus more on the here now with dreadnoughts and BB's, i would like CV's but i realise that getting the game up to par first is more important.

Hope i dont sound condisending at all.

I not saying that they shouldn't be there, the options I mean, I just make fun of them...

because quite frankly you can make this really absurd quick...

don't like 18 inch guns? BAM! deactivated

Don't like BC? BAM! deactivated

Don't like torps? BAM! deactivated

Don like 2 inch guns? BAM! deactivated. 

 

And yes I'm not serious about this and just make fun of the concept.

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1 minute ago, SiWi said:

I not saying that they shouldn't be there, the options I mean, I just make fun of them...

because quite frankly you can make this really absurd quick...

don't like 18 inch guns? BAM! deactivated

Don't like BC? BAM! deactivated

Don't like torps? BAM! deactivated

Don like 2 inch guns? BAM! deactivated. 

 

And yes I'm not serious about this and just make fun of the concept.

Yeah, but i doubt the devs will do dat doe. Only if it makes sense, especially with such tiny team in place and if a considerable pop of the playerbase wants it.

Too be honest for 3 people this is very impressive for an alpha nevermind a game.

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1 minute ago, Cptbarney said:

Oh no i understood his point but its pointless, you litterally comparing apples and oranges the game hasnt been released yet and therefore we have no clue what the game will turn out 3-12 months from this exact date.

It's why we have to be patient about things, i think peeps are forgetting the insanely large scope of the game coupled with an insanely small dev team.

If this game was a full release then sure i would agree but since it hasn't even reached stage 3 of being an indev closed alpha test its hardly fair nor logical to compare it to fully released games with multiple updates from said release.

I hope you understand where im coming from.

I don't get the whole "but its in alpha" thing...

I see no comment complaining that planes are not in the game right now...

I only see comments wishing them for the future...

SO I don't get what this is suppose to be arguing about...

 

Personally I would have no problem when CV come after the campaign is "finished".

Or even as big addon or DLC.

Just if a game, which has alot of loading screens referencing CV's btw, would stay forever without CV's, I would see that as a lost because it would rob this game off another layer.

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Just now, Cptbarney said:

Yeah, but i doubt the devs will do dat doe. Only if it makes sense, especially with such tiny team in place and if a considerable pop of the playerbase wants it.

Too be honest for 3 people this is very impressive for an alpha nevermind a game.

no arguing on the later.

As much there are annoying things, looking both on the damage model but more even on the time limits (really hope campaign battles won't have them), but despite being in alpha it does rund very good and does give alot of fun.

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