NEW Port Battle System for community review

[Never]

Many players have been and still are dissatisfied with the port battle BR system. So my suggestion is to drop the BR system altogether for something else entirely different that can address the shortcomings of the BR system, at least for Port battles. 
Anyone that feels like reading this, please leave your feedback. If enough people can give their thoughts maybe I can try to put everyone's suggestions into it and fix any flaws or disliked aspects. Any additions or suggestions for anything that might be missing or that should be adjusted are very welcome. If there is enough feedback I will make a new thread with all the revisions included. 

NEW POINT BASED PORT BATTLE SYSTEM

The reasoning for the change to a point based PB system is based on creating more varied Port Battles where more of the beautiful ships of Naval Action can be used. For example: 2nd rates, 3rd rates and 4th rates which are normally not seen much in PBs over ships like the L’Ocean or Santisima Trinidad. 

This new system would allow small nations or small clans to take and defend ports with less players while still maintaining the advantage for the larger and more powerful nations/clans.

PB point based system overview:

• Removal of BR from port battles altogether 

• When a port is taken the clan leader can choose the size of the defending Port Battle fleet between a minimum of 15 ships and a maximum of 25 ships. (this would have an additional cost similar to PB timers.)

• The default number of defending ships for neutral ports is either max or randomized 

• How many ships of each class are allowed in the Port Battle is determined by Port’s maximum investment points. (example: if it is a 25 point or a 55 point port, ect)

• The number of ships of each class allowed would be proportional. Ports with higher points would allow more 1st rates and other large ships.

• The system should admit a max of each predetermined class or lower class of ship. The same way kill missions do, higher rated ships slots can be filled with any lower rated ship.

Port Battle Fleet composition

55 POINTS PORT
	15 defenders		20 defenders		25 defenders
	Deep	Shallow	Deep	Shallow	Deep	Shallow
1st rate	3		4		5
2nd rate	6		8		10
3rd rate	6		8		10
4th rate
5th rate		15		20		25
6th rate

 

 

45 POINTS PORT
	15 defenders		20 defenders		25 defenders
	Deep	Shallow	Deep	Shallow	Deep	Shallow
1st rate	2		3		4
2nd rate	5		6		9
3rd rate	8		11		12
4th rate
5th rate		15		15		20
6th rate				5		5

 

35 POINTS PORT
	15 defenders		20 defenders		25 defenders
	Deep	Shallow	Deep	Shallow	Deep	Shallow
1st rate	1		2		3
2nd rate	4		5		6
3rd rate	8		10		12
4th rate	2		3		4
5th rate		10		10		15
6th rate		5		10		10

 

25 POINTS PORT
	15 defenders		20 defenders		25 defenders
	Deep	Shallow	Deep	Shallow	Deep	Shallow
1st rate	0		1		2
2nd rate	3		4		5
3rd rate	8		10		12
4th rate	4		5		6
5th rate		5		5		10
6th rate		10		15		15

 

15 POINTS PORT
	15 defenders		20 defenders		25 defenders
	Deep	Shallow	Deep	Shallow	Deep	Shallow
1st rate	0		0		1
2nd rate	2		3		4
3rd rate	8		10		12
4th rate	5		7		8
5th rate				10		5
6th rate		15		10		20

 

NEW FRONT LINE MECHANICS

Any port that isn’t a county capital in the map can be attacked for hostility missions. In order to start hostilities on capital ports (ship building ports), the attacking nation needs to control at least 50% of non capital ports in a county.

How this changes might help keep more players in the game; rookies or veterans:

• Easier access to Port Battles with easier to obtain and sail ships for newer players (3rd rates and 4th rates)

• More Port Battles being fought due to the new front line system

• Much lower danger of quickly and easily losing a ship building port and more chances to fight back before losing all investment

• Many of the almost never seen ships in port battles could be used due to the removal of BR ( some ships would still need some balancing ex: Pavel) 

• In the case of nations with less players, they will still have a disadvantage but they can fill the higher rate slots and have less of the lower rated ships. So their disadvantage would be lesser than with the current BR system. They are also able to choose to defend with a smaller fleet if they can't put together 25 ships. 

[Teutonic]

I like this as well.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Teutonic

[erelkivtuadrater]

my problem with this system is that it creates a meta no matter how you see it, those 3 first rate WILL be 3 l'oceans, as the 3rd rates WILL be bellonas, and the math is simple, when there is something you can maximize and there is ship slot based people with say 10 players cant compensate for the loss of amount of players.

This is why in this kind of game since we have battle rating on ships we are able to compensate in battles just as if we have OW battles where two l'oceans 1800BR is equally matched (in theory) with 3x 3rd rates + 1x 4th rate. With the BR changes to a port battle we might see different tactics , do we split and cap 2 circles but risk getting caught in a brawl vs heavier lineships or can we trust our players to outplay those heavier ships with smaller ones and win without a brawl. Even fireships etc comes to mind.

 

This system works IF there is a guaranteed way to fill in all the slots so its equal numbers on both sides to start with or else the side that cant fill it wall will always be in a huge disadvantage

[Never]

5 minutes ago, erelkivtuadrater said:

my problem with this system is that it creates a meta no matter how you see it, those 3 first rate WILL be 3 l'oceans, as the 3rd rates WILL be bellonas, and the math is simple, when there is something you can maximize and there is ship slot based people with say 10 players cant compensate for the loss of amount of players.

This is why in this kind of game since we have battle rating on ships we are able to compensate in battles just as if we have OW battles where two l'oceans 1800BR is equally matched (in theory) with 3x 3rd rates + 1x 4th rate. With the BR changes to a port battle we might see different tactics , do we split and cap 2 circles but risk getting caught in a brawl vs heavier lineships or can we trust our players to outplay those heavier ships with smaller ones and win without a brawl. Even fireships etc comes to mind.

 

This system works IF there is a guaranteed way to fill in all the slots so its equal numbers on both sides to start with or else the side that cant fill it wall will always be in a huge disadvantage

Name a system that has no meta though? 
I welcome your view, but only criticism is useless, instead provide a solution that fits the system instead. With BR people don't use 3 3rd rates to match 1 1st rate, as you say. That's true in theory but in practice it doesn't happen. 
To address your final point, a clan can choose to defend with only 15 ships. 

[erelkivtuadrater]

19 minutes ago, Never said:

Name a system that has no meta though? 
I welcome your view, but only criticism is useless, instead provide a solution that fits the system instead. With BR people don't use 3 3rd rates to match 1 1st rate, as you say. That's true in theory but in practice it doesn't happen. 
To address your final point, a clan can choose to defend with only 15 ships. 

there will always be some kind of meta, but the best way to avoid it is to decrease the BR of the ports, increase the BR for 2nd and 1st rates as in rediiis suggestion.

This will minimize the meta because you can either defend with 14 players or 25 players but with smaller types of ships and different tactics, but the suggestion you're proposing Yes it will bring diversity in therms of rates used in a port battle, BUT if a nation cant fill those spots up they will have the disadvantage in therms of player numbers AND firepower : player ratio.

 

I thought about this same suggestion months ago, even proposed it to the suggestion forum, but for the suggestion to work you would need to have BR limits within the highest rate, say the port is 15k br, you can bring 50% 3rd rates, 30% 2nd rates, 20% 1st rates. For how much BR that is left in the rate above, it is transferred over to the next ship rate and so onwards, and this would allow 15 players have the same BR as 20 players because they have an other ship lineup.

 

And "With BR people don't use 3 3rd rates to match 1 1st rate, as you say. That's true in theory but in practice it doesn't happen. " its true that in practice it wont happen because it depends on the players, you see players even myself take down sols with carro frigates with ease because of the difference in skill, same goes the other way where you have Ram Dinark that can take out 5 inexperienced sailors with the same type of SoLs as him with his one ship.

But we all know that in the perfect world and if the game actually was a sandbox, we wouldn't have to do hostility missions to trigger a port battle, there would be no maximum numbers in one instance, but thats not what we have now (even though we were fairly close some years ago)

Edited October 30, 2019 by erelkivtuadrater

[Never]

24 minutes ago, erelkivtuadrater said:

there will always be some kind of meta, but the best way to avoid it is to decrease the BR of the ports, increase the BR for 2nd and 1st rates as in rediiis suggestion.

This will minimize the meta because you can either defend with 14 players or 25 players but with smaller types of ships and different tactics, but the suggestion you're proposing Yes it will bring diversity in therms of rates used in a port battle, BUT if a nation cant fill those spots up they will have the disadvantage in therms of player numbers AND firepower : player ratio.

 

I thought about this same suggestion months ago, even proposed it to the suggestion forum, but for the suggestion to work you would need to have BR limits within the highest rate, say the port is 15k br, you can bring 50% 3rd rates, 30% 2nd rates, 20% 1st rates. For how much BR that is left in the rate above, it is transferred over to the next ship rate and so onwards, and this would allow 15 players have the same BR as 20 players because they have an other ship lineup.

 

And "With BR people don't use 3 3rd rates to match 1 1st rate, as you say. That's true in theory but in practice it doesn't happen. " its true that in practice it wont happen because it depends on the players, you see players even myself take down sols with carro frigates with ease because of the difference in skill, same goes the other way where you have Ram Dinark that can take out 5 inexperienced sailors with the same type of SoLs as him with his one ship.

But we all know that in the perfect world and if the game actually was a sandbox, we wouldn't have to do hostility missions to trigger a port battle, there would be no maximum numbers in one instance, but thats not what we have now (even though we were fairly close some years ago)

You think 15 ships is too many for an entire nation? How many would you say is low enough? 10? 5? 
 

[van der Clam]

@erelkivtuadrater So, if the BR was lowered to whatever redii is suggesting, what ships would people bring? Still as many 1st rates as possible. I've watched many vids on port battles over the years, and I've never seen diversity of ships in port battles, no matter what the BR was. Sure, you see the occasional 3rd or 4th rates, but looking at their rank will explain why. (Of course, this does not apply to Russian PB fleets, or the new LAMA fleets. In those you see a wide variety because their ships are impenetrable. Every one of their battles looks the same, enemy side all sunk or captured and their side not even damaged. Would be nice to see LLAMA fight the REDS/or any of the other big Russian clans. But I think that's physically impossible.)

This was my BR suggestion for ports

 

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

Regarding the predictable choices of L'Oceans as First Rates, Bellonas at Third Rates etc:

Randomize the set up of fleets. Imagine you get an order by your King to defend or attack a port. Or some Pirate overlord.

He in  his Highness has a battle plan. Means, the chosen slots have to be filled (insert random) by ships of his (not so perfect) choice. So each PB will look different because your King (who is AI random jesus) picked the ship types within the class slots. Player have to fill those slots with matching ships.

Creates variety and gives use to other ships than the usual suspects. And people need to work with improvisation. Cooperation between friendly clans intensified, because you may not have exactly the required number of Wasas for your Third Rate slots your stupid King demanded, so ask friends with some to give a hand.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Cetric de Cornusiac

[erelkivtuadrater]

28 minutes ago, van der Clam said:

@erelkivtuadrater So, if the BR was lowered to whatever redii is suggesting, what ships would people bring? Still as many 1st rates as possible. I've watched many vids on port battles over the years, and I've never seen diversity of ships in port battles, no matter what the BR was. Sure, you see the occasional 3rd or 4th rates, but looking at their rank will explain why. (Of course, this does not apply to Russian PB fleets, or the new LAMA fleets. In those you see a wide variety because their ships are impenetrable. Every one of their battles looks the same, enemy side all sunk or captured and their side not even damaged. Would be nice to see LLAMA fight the REDS/or any of the other big Russian clans. But I think that's physically impossible.)

This was my BR suggestion for ports

 

spent literally 2 minutes to find these pictures. Both port battles have a huge diversity between them, unfortunately the bucentaure was the deal back then but i guess we can all agree that having 450br on Bellona and 460 BR on Bucentaure while the l'ocean/santi/victory was on 600+ made no sense.

And BTW "Must be some lower rank that fills spots" out of those two battles you see that minimum 80% were max rank, but isnt it better to have lower ranked players be able to experience rvr instead of having it as a requirement that you NEED to have 900 crew to MAYBE join a port battle? Hello?

Edited October 30, 2019 by erelkivtuadrater

[erelkivtuadrater]

33 minutes ago, Never said:

You think 15 ships is too many for an entire nation? How many would you say is low enough? 10? 5? 
 

depends, regarding no alliance system and the way we are heading with the population we might have 1v1 PB's soon

[Botq]

35 minutes ago, erelkivtuadrater said:

spent literally 2 minutes to find these pictures. Both port battles have a huge diversity between them, unfortunately the bucentaure was the deal back then but i guess we can all agree that having 450br on Bellona and 460 BR on Bucentaure while the l'ocean/santi/victory was on 600+ made no sense.

And BTW "Must be some lower rank that fills spots" out of those two battles you see that minimum 80% were max rank, but isnt it better to have lower ranked players be able to experience rvr instead of having it as a requirement that you NEED to have 900 crew to MAYBE join a port battle? Hello?

I dont understand what are you pointing out  

[erelkivtuadrater]

7 minutes ago, o7Captain said:

I dont understand what are you pointing out  

he said "Still as many 1st rates as possible. I've watched many vids on port battles over the years, and I've never seen diversity of ships in port battles, no matter what the BR was. Sure, you see the occasional 3rd or 4th rates, but looking at their rank will explain why."

I spent 2 minutes on my clans discord to find some of the many ss we have with diversity in PB fleets which were possible from autumn 2018 to spring 2019 until they changed the BR back to the 20k one.

So the point is, if he hasnt seen any diversity in pb's over the years its 1 because it was only possible over a course of 4-5 months because earlier it was locket to either 1st, 4th or 6th rates, and 2 he hasnt seen much of the rvr videos from that period of 4-5 months
 

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by erelkivtuadrater

[van der Clam]

@erelkivtuadrater I get your point that there was some diversity, but look at your first image. Nearly all Bucs won, and the diverse side got wasted. Look at the second image, almost all Bucs kicked the ass of the diverse side again. So my point still stand, no matter the port BR diversity does not win when the other team is filled with the meta. The only way to have diversity in port battles, imho, is to limit the BR per rate. Or maybe I'm missing your point still.

If 45 point ports allowed only 1600 BR for 1st rates you would have a choice of 1 L'Ocean, or 1 Santi, or 2 Victories. (Same for all rates.) Say 55 point ports had 3200 BR for 1st rates you could have 3 L'Os or 3 Santis, or 4 Vics. 2nd rates and 3rd rates all the way down would offer even more variety because of the varied BR in those rates.