What about planes?

[Pterry]

As I have been playing this wonderful game filled with so much potential, I notice something missing: The air aspect. Although this would not be an issue in the beginning 1890's era, by the 1930's planes were finding use as the first aircraft carriers were getting their legs out and battleships were using spotter planes for beyond line of sight acquisition, which could be a medium between the rangefinders and radars in game. What is the plan for the air side of this game?

Pic is of the IJN Kirishima in 1932, with the visible spotter plane

Edited October 24, 2019 by Pterry

[OldSaltyOne]

No we don’t need that in this game.  Definately NOT what Naval action is about if you want that there’s other games out there. NEGATIVE 1 

Edited October 24, 2019 by OldSaltyOne

[Haratik]

This isn't Naval Action bud, check the title of the game.

[OldSaltyOne]

Whoops lol my fault then lol still learning forums

[OldSaltyOne]

In that case even though this is on a different game yes Kirishna did in fact have a spotter being 1930s I would only assume that it’s a the low stages of the game.  If it’s only a tier three or two mabe even a four they probably didn’t add the spotting aircraft for game balancing purposes.

[Pterry]

Wasn't expecting so much vitriol about it honestly. I love the customization of this game and thought aircraft would be a good addition. 😞

[JetChaos]

Reconnaissance spotter planes? I think it's a good idea.

[Absolute0CA]

I agree we should have them.

[sarrumac]

Spotter planes are a good idea. 

[Pterry]

Decided to try a go at modeling an R0.43 reconnaissance aircraft as used on the battleship Littorio. current body progress

[Steeltrap]

On 10/25/2019 at 5:28 PM, Pterry said:

Wasn't expecting so much vitriol about it honestly. I love the customization of this game and thought aircraft would be a good addition. 😞

There's been a fairly lively discussion going on over the involvement of aircraft, split into land based and CV based. Should they be scouts only, or the full land and sea based attack planes as well? If CVs are included, how much say might there be on design and what squadrons to equip etc?

Some are in favour of all, some dead against all, and some exploring possible options in the middle.

I know some are concerned attack aircraft will alter the nature of the game significantly in ways they aren't keen on seeing.

Others are concerned that a game that stretches into the 1940s ought not leave out what became the most significant development, namely aircraft able to attack effectively ships at sea plus the means to carry them around (imaginatively called "aircraft carriers" LOL).

There's also the concern that airpower could be a tricky thing to balance. I suspect some people might have played WoWS and got sick of the way CVs could affect their gameplay enjoyment, and that WG tried for more than 2 years to get them 'balanced' only to clear the decks and try again.

That's my summary of what I think are the reasons why you might have seen more heat in this topic than you anticipated.

Cheers

p.s. for full disclosure given I've participated in those discussions, I am fine with recon aircraft but I am not keen on attack aircraft until I see more details on how they're going to be implemented. If the devs tell us they'll provide an ability to disable all/some aircraft options if we wish, however, then I've absolutely no issues and can also see the potential of more variety for playthroughs.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Steeltrap
Fixed typo Nov 19

[Illya von Einzbern]

well i assume some one may mod planes to the game?
In the end modders are really amazing when it comes to determination of having something in a game they love

[Sergey Smirnov]

Definetely can see how attack aircraft could be a hell to balance, although, I would argue that at least scout planes should be a thing. Quite a few cruisers and battleships had spotter planes, even before the big developments in the 40s. Implementing such planes here would be a really nice way to possibly increase accuracy - especially for the later higher caliber guns.

[Illya von Einzbern]

to be fair having attack planes wont be that bad idea.
planes are really easy to counter and we are talking about normal propeller planes that really can't eat flack for breakfast.

How to counter planes?
1. have your own carrier as escort with combat air patrols (can be used as scouts as well)
2. Have AA DDs, CLs, CA, BBs, BBVs, or CAVs?
3. Improve AA tech.

that should cover the how to counter planes

[Riccardo Cagnasso]

Please don't.
Look at what happened with "victory at sea pacific"

An arguably very nice game with a ton of battleships, destroyers, cruisers etc that after a couple of hours becomes a strategic game about carriers and planes and nothing else.

I love that game because it's a perfect at simulating the frustration of 1940s admirals, but please don't

[SiWi]

4 hours ago, Riccardo Cagnasso said:

Please don't.
Look at what happened with "victory at sea pacific"

An arguably very nice game with a ton of battleships, destroyers, cruisers etc that after a couple of hours becomes a strategic game about carriers and planes and nothing else.

I love that game because it's a perfect at simulating the frustration of 1940s admirals, but please don't

Vas pacific starts 1941....

this game starts 1890....

[Ink]

Admirals,

Planes are a complex feature and will only be considered after base campaign is delivered to users and plays well

[akd]

25 minutes ago, Ink said:

Admirals,

Planes are a complex feature and will only be considered after base campaign is delivered to users and plays well

As it should be.

[Sergey Smirnov]

Does this include all planes or only attack planes?

 

Personally, I find spotter planes could be used as a simple "guns get +x accuracy at distances over y km", indicating them spotting the shell splashes closer to the ship, zero ability to attack themselves and maybe a way to extend the ships actual spotting range. I don't think even those should be implemented right now, though, arguably could at least be considered earlier than full on attack planes (if those come into play at all)

[Pterry]

10 hours ago, Ink said:

Admirals,

Planes are a complex feature and will only be considered after base campaign is delivered to users and plays well

Thank you so much for the concise response on it! I cant wait to see what the future holds for this!

[Skeksis]

A "plus" from me, for the future.

Pre WOWS CV rework, all aircraft squadrons were all bound by RNG damage aura’s (range circle). As squadrons reached an enemy squadron, the aircraft flew in figures of eight (or something like that), with some altitude variances, it look like a dogfight. At the current game scale, this type of dogfighting would look and have the same effect.

While in engagements and within each other "squadron" aura’s (not per plane), the HP simply diminishes, popping off aircraft one by one, this effect could also be used over ships and damage to ships applied in increments.

In visual terms (and maybe resource-wise) not such a complicated system but an effective one, especially for an introduction of floatplanes and spotter-planes, should work well.

Adding catapults to the design adds an “completeness” to the designer tool and ships designs, leads onto AA guns arrangements (aura damaging too). And fleets made up with "purpose built ships" etc AA support ships.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Skeksis

[Illya von Einzbern]

12 hours ago, Skeksis said:

A "plus" from me, for the future.

Pre WOWS CV rework, all aircraft squadrons were all bound by RNG damage aura’s. As squadrons reached an enemy squadron, the aircraft flew in figures of eight (or something like that), with some altitude variances, it look like a dogfight. At the current game scale, this type of dogfighting would look and have the same effect.

While in engagements and within each other "squadron" aura’s (not per plane), the HP simply diminishes, popping off aircraft one by one, this effect could also be used over ships and damage to ships applied in increments.

In visual terms (and maybe resource-wise) not such a complicated system but an effective one, especially for an introduction of floatplanes and spotter-planes, should work well.

Adding catapults to the design adds an “completeness” to the designer tool and ships designs, leads onto AA guns arrangements. And fleets made up with "purpose built ships" etc AA support ships.

I do agree with this.
I just hope we won't end up with long range shell yeeting competitions in end game were smaller ships are there as extras
With planes you could have purpose built ships and relatively cheap purpose fleets for escorting convoys and big guns as well raiding parties.
That small extra option of attack and defense/ mind game gives a nuance were you never can feel too comfortable of long range slug fights.
Would also make players to think twice what kind of ships are needed and how to design ships.

On 11/15/2019 at 6:34 PM, Ink said:

Admirals,

Planes are a complex feature and will only be considered after base campaign is delivered to users and plays well

I do agree with devs that planes are complicated to add and visual effects needs to be tweaked but life time of a game is determined on how much it can offer and does it stimulate the player to want try out things. So far i have been doing all naval academy mission in the fastest possible speed as long range duels rarely requires any input. Sail in 1 line or in 2 lines if money allows and sandwich. Once that is done just let the game run till end. Rinse and repeat. More treats to big ships are needed or something that requires player input to adapt to changing situations. Storms, night fight or something really absurd. Desperate moments don't really feel desperate at all. A crippled ship can be just sent slightly back till it's not a interesting target for AI. With planes around you could send (try) crippled ship towards your carrier as last line of defense with mobile escorts that can be sent back and fort.

Yet another element to take in to consideration. Should i keep this ship in front in combat or should i send it back to provide some fire support and preserve it for future combat?
Can i utilize the opening the enemy fleet created by leaving a crippled ship behind with planes or can i finish off the ship my battleships could not with air attack?
Sure you can do this now with kamikaze DDs but to be fair suicide torp boats are rarely a good option to leave as last gambit to players or as the ones to finish of BBs, CAs... you tend to take more losses in DDs than the value of doing the finishing touches = Use big guns from relative safety and call it a day
Equalize radar techs provided advantage in spotting with spotter planes. Ect...

The amount of utility and balancing against some tech these would provide is more than healthy. You could choose what path to follow in your naval pursuits.
Decisive battles, Aviation supremacy, Trade disruption, Prolonged skirmishes or mixed fleet actions.

After all good tea has varied amount of nuances and taste which makes it tasty and good.

[Cairo1]

On 11/15/2019 at 10:34 AM, Ink said:

Admirals,

Planes are a complex feature and will only be considered after base campaign is delivered to users and plays well

What about Observation blimps? is this something that we can have for shell spotting, or increased detection?

Edited November 18, 2019 by Cairo1
more neat info

[Skeksis]

8 hours ago, Illya von Einzbern said:

I just hope we won't end up with long range shell yeeting competitions in end game were smaller ships are there as extras

Inevitable! With big ranging guns, radar and all the accuracy mods, the end game is most likely long range engagements. Early to midgame should be all close range combat.

However, very end game aircraft could be the balance, to bring the engagements back to close range via squadron attacks. Just speculating since Dev’s have already said no birds to start with.

[Steeltrap]

22 hours ago, Illya von Einzbern said:

I do agree with this.
I just hope we won't end up with long range shell yeeting competitions in end game were smaller ships are there as extras
With planes you could have purpose built ships and relatively cheap purpose fleets for escorting convoys and big guns as well raiding parties.
That small extra option of attack and defense/ mind game gives a nuance were you never can feel too comfortable of long range slug fights.
Would also make players to think twice what kind of ships are needed and how to design ships.

I do agree with devs that planes are complicated to add and visual effects needs to be tweaked but life time of a game is determined on how much it can offer and does it stimulate the player to want try out things. So far i have been doing all naval academy mission in the fastest possible speed as long range duels rarely requires any input. Sail in 1 line or in 2 lines if money allows and sandwich. Once that is done just let the game run till end. Rinse and repeat. More treats to big ships are needed or something that requires player input to adapt to changing situations. Storms, night fight or something really absurd. Desperate moments don't really feel desperate at all. A crippled ship can be just sent slightly back till it's not a interesting target for AI. With planes around you could send (try) crippled ship towards your carrier as last line of defense with mobile escorts that can be sent back and fort.

Yet another element to take in to consideration. Should i keep this ship in front in combat or should i send it back to provide some fire support and preserve it for future combat?
Can i utilize the opening the enemy fleet created by leaving a crippled ship behind with planes or can i finish off the ship my battleships could not with air attack?
Sure you can do this now with kamikaze DDs but to be fair suicide torp boats are rarely a good option to leave as last gambit to players or as the ones to finish of BBs, CAs... you tend to take more losses in DDs than the value of doing the finishing touches = Use big guns from relative safety and call it a day
Equalize radar techs provided advantage in spotting with spotter planes. Ect...

The amount of utility and balancing against some tech these would provide is more than healthy. You could choose what path to follow in your naval pursuits.
Decisive battles, Aviation supremacy, Trade disruption, Prolonged skirmishes or mixed fleet actions.

After all good tea has varied amount of nuances and taste which makes it tasty and good.

I absolutely agree there are very good grounds for varying levels of plane implementation (and have said so before), and they have the potential to add to the variety in replays.

I suspect the devs won't ever render the planes in the 3D battle view unless they intend players to have some direct influence over the conduct of airstrikes, however, as that's an AWFUL lot of work to do if the result is simply generated behind the scenes.

Trying to have players affect how attacks are conducted, either when attacking with planes or defending against them, is also a hell of a lot of work.

I'd not be surprised if we never see 3D rendering for the reasons I've stated.

Spotting aircraft were only used for providing real time feedback for gunnery in the case of some shore bombardments to the best of my knowledge. Graf Spee made extensive use of her aircraft to increase her scouting range while commerce raiding leading up to the Battle of the River Plate, and that's one example of many, many cases where scout planes were used.

I'd be entirely in favour of being able to build ships to have scout/spotting planes to increase the likelihood of spotting forces on the campaign map. Even this technically minor alteration isn't quite as minor as it seems, however, as it means scout aircraft facilities (hangers, launch rails, cranes) have to go into the ship designer with appropriate weights etc, and the AI has to be told how and when to use them, plus it's more tech.

I suppose they could do it on the cheap and say you can add them at the cost of 'x' tonnage and 'y' dollars based on certain tech options and that gives you a bonus to different spotting factors. Even then it would mean they aren't included on the ship model to be damaged, and thus it's far from ideal. I'd personally not object to it being done this way, however.

Regardless how they do it, they'd also have to build in the 'scout aircraft' factor into the search characteristics of a fleet if one or more ships have them.

Thus a relatively simple addition isn't as simple as it seems, so I have plenty of sympathy for the devs on this even when I'd be happy for a basic scout plane addition.