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Seasonal Update: Treacherous Waters - Preliminary information

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will never understand this patch & new feature politics. you bring wind-gusts into game, defend it strongly against critics ("they will never get out of the game"), then nerf it again down until they get almost useless ... at the end both groups, the supporters and the haters of wind gusts, are angry on you ... strange ...

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For those, who interested.

The article about speediness and maneuverqability of ships of Black Sea fleet in 1827-1828 (on Russian though)

https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/analiz-hodkosti-ostoychivosti-i-upravlyaemosti-korabley-chernomorskogo-flota-v-period-russko-turetskoy-voyny1828-1829-gg-na-osnove

Interesting that in stronger wind ships are slower...

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On 10/24/2019 at 4:03 PM, admin said:

We already said it is totally realistic, just a bit exaggerated (because ow speed even basic ones exceed 100 and ow travel is abstract - everyone know it).
Its a known fact that two identical boats can have different wind speeds in the same area, especially on the borders between high/low pressure zones. In fact a ship can have 0 wind at all and another ship 1 mile away can give 2 knots.  Only in tradewinds the wind pressure is somewhat uniform and even then there are lower and higher pressure zones.

We plan to remove speed indicators some once we add the skill knot log (if this happens - not guaranteed). Removing indicators will bring peace of mind. 
In addition to that we will add barometer that will help predict wind change and wind strengh (changing speeds between classes in real time)
Current wind gusts will lock this all together. 

+ We no longer tolerate time wasting for hours. 

If you want to implement a faster sailing system I think it's fine in OW to shorten the distance for every body equally... It's like strategical movement but different rules should apply when in tactical mode (IE battle here) I would think gust (as well as the long overdue taking the wind out of someone's sails) should be implemented in the battle instance not in the OW.

Removing speed indicator and adding it as a skill doesn't help much. Especially when we have limited skills slots. By the 18th century the system was well known and didn't need special skill for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_log Samuel de Champlain in the 1630's described it https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Traitté_de_la_marine_et_du_devoir_d'un_bon_marinier-Autre_manière_d'eftimer.svg

Having a barometer would have to be standard too... The skill is not in the instrument but in the use of it. Or maybe have the player pay for navigational instruments (as he pays to have guns) for each ship.

 

When I was in the Navy we used barometers and other navigational tools to help us take good decisions... But in the end the most important is what you do with the information. 

For example, I witnessed while I was on the captain deck a major incident that ended up with the ship hitting a sand bar and being stuck on it...

Just because the captain didn't trust the information he was receiving from the look-out, he didn't trust the local authority to do the right thing (we were leaving Thessaloniki in Greece and he thought that a buoy marking the sand bar was missing because we didn't see it on our starboard while it was in fact on our port side [and nobody was looking for it on that side] making us closer to the coast that we thought). We even had a navigational sonar but its alarm was turned off because the operator thought it was too noisy... and he wasn't even looking at it before the beaching on the sand bar. And for some reason the radar wasn't even used for distance.

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That's cool. Just one week after the season update, 200 people disappeared. 

1. Remove RAIDERS attack
2. Increase your shipping costs.
3. experience our pain on the player side.

Don't give us a beta test. Try and apply the game after you've done enough yourself. We are sick and tired of losing our crews and friends to your update. A week or so was enough. Why don't you let us out of pain now?

Edited by SunguruXT
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On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 7:25 PM, Fluffy Fishy said:

Hull speed is fairly meaningless when it comes to the age of sail, there are far more important factors when it comes to determining speed from historical wooden ships. Historic sailing is so dependable on other factors like rigging type, stiffness, trimming/load and general hull form much more than modern vessels. Frigates aren't by any means faster than ships of the line, nor are larger ships of the line by default slower than smaller ships of the line. Taking just the easily accountable examples of HMS Victory, Bellona and Agamemnon, Victory sailed 11kn, Bellona 12kn and Agamemnon 9.5kn in their best wind conditions historically. Other examples from history that are easily accessible are the 24 gun HMS Seahorse who could only manage 11kns, HMS Lowestoffe at 32 guns who could do 10kn, Unite 36 guns at 13kn and HMS Badger 12 guns who could only perform a top speed of 9kn. Typical 74s tended to be around the 11-12kn mark although some are considerably faster, similarly some examples of 80 gunners could produce some really high speeds in comparison to frigates and post ships.

Despite top speed being a a thing its more realistic to look at actual viable speeds which is represented in game fairly well with the sailing graphs where certain ships would perform better than others in certain directions due to the way their hull form and rigging made them behave. The most important part of this however is that certain sailing conditions favored some rigging types and sized ships much more than others, it all becomes very complicated though. In calm seas with low winds its not uncommon for a larger ship to catch winds much better than a smaller ship due to having much higher sails, while in heavier winds with calm seas sailing conditions typically favoured smaller ships. This all becomes much more complicated when you throw in things like stiffness and rougher waters where factors like how weatherly a ship was come into play much more, stiffer ships will sail much better in rougher waters, again potentially favouring larger ships, but again trimming, ballast and where the gunports sit compared with roll and heel become much more important than ship size.

There are plenty of examples of large ships historically out sailing smaller ships. The nonsense of frigates being default faster than ships of the line is also a myth mostly propagated by bad history from all sorts of media. Even within the game we have fairly obvious examples from discussions on the forums like Montanes who could sail 14kn and Endymion who could sail 14.5kn vastly outrunning smaller ships.

Very good analysis as always. I thought we did have some aspect of the lower gun ports closed or unusable in the Sea Trials storm battles. @admin ?? But with varying weather conditions it and rigging damage should be implemented.

When you talk about light winds I think you have to add the location as well. Close to land you can have a significant wind shadow that is going to benefit the taller rig in calm to light breezes. Out in the open ocean the effect won't be as pronounced. As a practical matter in game I don't think we'll see winds so light that the effect of the taller rig on a larger ship makes any difference. There is a wind range where a smaller ship, and I am talking mostly about unrated ships and fore and aft rigged vessels, will sail faster.  For NA the question is what wind strength is represented in general and by the wind gusts we now have in game and what effect does that have on the various classes of ships. 

With regard to frigates out sailing ships of the line I think you want to look for what the mostly likely outcome was and that is by and large the frigate would outrun the SOL. Now less so at the end of the period with newer designed 74s. Montanes may be the exception rather than the rule (taking into account weather conditions of course). Looking at your chart of Nelson's ships it does appear that the HMS Medusa (32) was the fastest in those conditions. (I am assuming that the 16 knt speed on the Albemarle was a typo).

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On 10/25/2019 at 1:25 AM, Fluffy Fishy said:

There are plenty of examples of large ships historically out sailing smaller ships. The nonsense of frigates being default faster than ships of the line is also a myth mostly propagated by bad history from all sorts of media.

But the custom for a Sol not to shoot first at a smaller ship is true, right ?

If so, this constraint could be implemented into an Age of Sail game to compensate their speed.

(btw, is a Sol faster than a Brexit? 😉)

Edited by LeBoiteux

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On 10/25/2019 at 2:25 AM, Fluffy Fishy said:

Hull speed is fairly meaningless when it comes to the age of sail

 

Hull speed was not meaningless in the Age of sail. It determines how fast a  hull can move through flat water, and depends solely on waterline length (without heeling)
Even though Froude proven it in mid 19 century it is useful for determining ideal possible speed of a vessel in the age of sail at least relatively. 


It would be meaningless if one crew cannot trim sails and cannot feel wind rotation, but it is not meaningless at all when determining the relative ship performance with all other things being equal, or balanced to be equal. 

 

On 10/25/2019 at 5:21 PM, Fluffy Fishy said:

Sorry but this is entirely wrong and mistakes the comparison between modern ships and historic ships. The typical weighted keel of a modern yacht or ship behave in very different ways to the wooden keel and ballasting of a ship during the age of sail. Sails and rigging also behave differently enough to historic ships too. I went into some details why in my previous post here (https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/32055-seasonal-update-treacherous-waters-preliminary-information/?do=findComment&comment=680682)

Well i am not sure you understood the example we gave.
Examples are given for points between close hauled - beam reach, to illustrate the point that wind strength is also important and depending of wind strength performance of a vessel will change a lot. That is why there are certain rigs that work on some coasts and not work well on other coasts.

So for closed hauled - our examples are correct - heavy line ship sill struggle finding any movement close hauled in light winds. Cutter will be a lot faster. And there is wind strength where line-ship will sail but cutter wont. 

Numbers you provided show max recorded speed at the best wind for that vessel.  We are talking about wind strength and how ship performance will change. There were ships that were amazing in trade winds but were completely useless in light changing winds near coasts. A xebec will perform well near Sicily, but will have a hard time in Providence, near Boston. 

About the reference you provided. 

  • Top gallant gale = gale where you can carry top gallant
    • Which means meaning - this wind is not really super strong, as it would be dangerous to carry all sails in very strong wind if it suddenly increases and drops (and it happens sometimes especially on the edges of fronts. 
  • Top sail gale would probably mean a stronger wind - as you would only take off top gallants if wind is stronger.. and here you already see effects @Malcolm3 was talking about - some ships are slower with stronger wind.  But some ships are faster.. 
    • That's why wind strength will find its way into the game and future games. 
  • None of the examples you provided show close hauled or reaching speed 
    • if they were providing it - badger (12) would probably be the fastest especially in light wind - confirming our table. Cutters, xebecs or bermuda rigs would be even faster. 
  • HMS boreas numbers look weird. 6 knots 
  • HMS Alrbemarle (former french merchantman) numbers look even more weird at 16 knots when it is known from multiple sources that Endymion was the fastest ship at 14.5 15 knots.

So overall we do not see where our examples are incorrect. But nevertheless this discussion is very useful as we really looking for for all the missing pieces for this and future amazing games in the age of sail. We see great future of our sailing model that will only get better and better.

There is also one missing piece that will finally solve the battle sails puzzle - we only discovered by accidentally stumbling on a rare seamanship book from 1810. But we wont talk about it in public until this feature is tested. 

ps.. medusa (32) 13 knots before the wind - slightly doubt it ;)

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On 10/27/2019 at 3:19 PM, Malcolm3 said:

For those, who interested.

The article about speediness and maneuverqability of ships of Black Sea fleet in 1827-1828 (on Russian though)

https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/analiz-hodkosti-ostoychivosti-i-upravlyaemosti-korabley-chernomorskogo-flota-v-period-russko-turetskoy-voyny1828-1829-gg-na-osnove

Interesting that in stronger wind ships are slower...

Not all - some hull shapes are less inclined to this
But in general there is wind speed which will force you to be slower, due to multiple factors (wave, wind pressure on masts or just heeling). in fact heeling not only can make you slower, but have another useful or very dangerous consequences. All of which will be implemented in this or future games.

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51 minutes ago, admin said:

We see great future of our sailing model that will only get better and better.

Have you considered some kind of interface that will let us pick exactly which sails we want to set, and allow us to set extra sails (like additional staysails and royals on ships that could fly them)? 

Also, if you implement varying wind strength, I think you should tie mast HP into the amount of sails set, and the strain from the press of sails. This way, a ship with already damaged masts cannot set full sails in a strong wind, without risk of losing his masts. And a small ship won't be able to carry a full press of canvas in strong winds, for fear of carrying it all away or getting thrown broadside to the sea and broaching.

I look forward to more depth in the sailing model. 

 

You mentioned battle sails. I think this is already in game (feels like it is); but battle sails should make the ship roll less. The press of wind into the sails would stabilize the ship. Ideally, battle sails would be the optimum sail setting that minimizes roll while maximizing speed, without setting additional sails that will cause the ship to roll or pitch more violently. It feels like battle sails already does this in game, but I don't remember if it was ever outright stated.

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5 hours ago, admin said:

All of which will be implemented in this or future games.

Pls in Naval Action. Or is it possible to make a NA2 in for example 10 years?

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7 hours ago, William Death said:

You mentioned battle sails. I think this is already in game (feels like it is); but battle sails should make the ship roll less. The press of wind into the sails would stabilize the ship. Ideally, battle sails would be the optimum sail setting that minimizes roll while maximizing speed, without setting additional sails that will cause the ship to roll or pitch more violently. It feels like battle sails already does this in game, but I don't remember if it was ever outright stated.

I still think battle sails aren't used enough in battles.  People tend to keep full sails all the time balls to the wall speed.  Which isn't what it's meant to be used in battle unless your running.  I still like my suggestion that you only get partial repair when doing it full sails.  How can you repair sails while going full sails?  More than likely you would do more damage than good.  Full repair effect should be during battle sails or even stopped.  Other things like aim should be reduced while at full sails....and can we get the laser accurate stern guns to shoot like every thing else now?

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On 10/28/2019 at 11:03 AM, Tortue Agile said:

st because the captain didn't trust the information he was receiving from the look-out, he didn't trust the local authority to do the right thing (we were leaving Thessaloniki in Greece and he thought that a buoy marking the sand bar was missing because we didn't see it on our starboard while it was in fact on our port side [and nobody was looking for it on that side] making us closer to the coast that we thought). We even had a navigational sonar but its alarm was turned off because the operator thought it was too noisy... and he wasn't even looking at it before the beaching on the sand bar. And for some reason the radar wasn't even used for distance.

May I ask what nations navy this was?

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3 hours ago, Sneakyfinger said:

May I ask what nations navy this was?

I was wondering too.  Cause if it’s a nation that doesn’t have much of a US prime time player base we can help him find one with such.  US, Swede, Dutch, Russia, Pirates all have US prime time clans.  Though I’m bias and would say go Dutch;)

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On 10/27/2019 at 1:46 PM, Earl of Grey said:

you bring wind-gusts into game, defend it strongly against critics ("they will never get out of the game"), then nerf it again down until they get almost useless ..

Your statement is incorrect. They were not nerfed at all. 

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4 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

I still think battle sails aren't used enough in battles.  People tend to keep full sails all the time balls to the wall speed.  Which isn't what it's meant to be used in battle unless your running.  I still like my suggestion that you only get partial repair when doing it full sails.  How can you repair sails while going full sails?  More than likely you would do more damage than good.  Full repair effect should be during battle sails or even stopped.  Other things like aim should be reduced while at full sails....and can we get the laser accurate stern guns to shoot like every thing else now?

i agree, i am still wondering, the USS Constitution had 100 sailors on her main mast, while sailing in battle sails what were probably the 50 other men doing? eating biscuits and drinking tea/coffee until their next command?

Along with reduced repair timer when in full sails i would also say that depending on the % of sails you're running the crew will be redeployed to other stations if not needed there, so its like if you get demasted you see the amount of sailors needed for rigging is reduced, why cant we have this aswell when we dont sails full sails.

 

Example:

(100%) Full Sails = |Sailing: 99/112 crew| |Gunnery: 168/242 crew|

(40%)  Battle Sails = |Sailing: 40/45 crew| |Gunnery: 227/242 crew|

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i liek the update, i only play on pve but so far i'm pretty impressed.  I don't agree with most players dislike of the loki rune . it might needed some tweaking , so you can't abuse it but the thought behind it was awesome. i'm soory tha alot of us (pve players) went totally overboard with the criticism. sorry to see the feature being removed again on the pve server. the port battles awesome and the wind also .  you can do a lot more things and fatser and that means more fun for me .

good job devs keep it up 👍

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16 hours ago, erelkivtuadrater said:

i agree, i am still wondering, the USS Constitution had 100 sailors on her main mast, while sailing in battle sails what were probably the 50 other men doing? eating biscuits and drinking tea/coffee until their next command?

Along with reduced repair timer when in full sails i would also say that depending on the % of sails you're running the crew will be redeployed to other stations if not needed there, so its like if you get demasted you see the amount of sailors needed for rigging is reduced, why cant we have this aswell when we dont sails full sails.

 

Example:

(100%) Full Sails = |Sailing: 99/112 crew| |Gunnery: 168/242 crew|

(40%)  Battle Sails = |Sailing: 40/45 crew| |Gunnery: 227/242 crew|

You only need sailors for the sails, when they have to be adjusted to the wind, or set and taken in.

So, as long as it is just adjusting sails, a minimum crew is required ( maybe 20%?). When you want to set sails or take them in, half of the crew from the guns should be called to do the job, but it is the captain's choice to work slowly on the guns or the sails... he will send the crew where he requires them most.

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18 hours ago, admin said:

Your statement is incorrect. They were not nerfed at all. 

So im wrong with my Impression that wind gusts are more rare now than after First days after Patch? For me it seems so. Maybe its just the vincibility in map? They are almost useless now because you see the windgusts too late, so you have to change course too heavy to reach em, the higher Speed is compensated by the longer way ... Just my Impression ...

 

Edited by Earl of Grey
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8 minutes ago, Sea Archer said:

You only need sailors for the sails, when they have to be adjusted to the wind, or set and taken in.

So, as long as it is just adjusting sails, a minimum crew is required ( maybe 20%?). When you want to set sails or take them in, half of the crew from the guns should be called to do the job, but it is the captain's choice to work slowly on the guns or the sails... he will send the crew where he requires them most.

i agree with you, if they were to implement it, maybe they should have a slider over the buttons like we have with transfering stuff in general ingame

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Reading through this thread has helped me make some conclusions-

1. The casual gamer is not valued

2. The new player is not valued

3. The multi-dimensional MMO player (trading, crafting, etc.) is not valued

4. The hard-core leaderboard gods are highly valued

5. The Devs don't care about many, many player concerns (see #1-4)

After >2000 hours, tomorrow I'll put my goods & ships in non-capturable ports and not be back for months. If the game is not completely dead by then, I hope to find common-sense changes have been made to Naval Action & paying-customer concerns have been responded to by Devs. As is, it's become something not worth the time, or money, I invested. Too bad...

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11 hours ago, Quiet Assassin said:

1. The casual gamer is not valued

2. The new player is not valued

3. The multi-dimensional MMO player (trading, crafting, etc.) is not valued

4. The hard-core leaderboard gods are highly valued

That is, why I chose Peace Server. There is no point in the leaderboard and it is much more MMO style. New and casual players are valued and helped by their clans and friends. It is simply missing the PvP ;)

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hi all, 

today i had a some sort of upgrade/update ? (930kb pvp/pve?)

any news on that ? someone?

 

Edited by Thonys
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