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Seasonal Update: Treacherous Waters - Preliminary information

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40 minutes ago, Cetric de Cornusiac said:

Very disappointing, given the warnings we issued here weeks ago, as we know our server and related problems to field enough players for PB.

Don't worry the way the PVP server is headed the PVE server will soon have the biggest population. ūüėĀ

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So most of the people I sail with don't mind the boost but hate that you can tag while boosted.

What about a tag cool down of 10 seconds which ends the boost.

Loki is funny as hell. More drops please.

Log book was silly and naff.

Econ missions is tough on new players. Old hands who are rich don't need them so don't care. Also there will be less targets now.

Also we are quite surprised at the size of the changes! Feels like beta all over again.

 

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I think that the feeling depend by the player, his skill, how long he"s playing this game and the faction. From the point of view of a new player, like I'm, in the pirate side, well is a lil boring to be hunted in fast way if you are not more fast to take the first wind boost near your dock. From the other side is good to move more faster along the map. 

 

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27 minutes ago, Wraith said:

you can't tag while boosted then it's basically just an invulnerability tool for people.  You can't catch me while I'm boosted, and can't tag me if you're boosted.. therefore, I'll be boosted and safe from everyone.  Thanks, bye.

Slow down and re-read.

I said most of my friends don't like that YOU can tag while boosted and think a 10 second cool down for tagging would be good.

So if you tag someone while boosted or you are tagged while boosted you have a cool down at normal speed say 10 seconds before you can tag properly.

That way normal OW rules would apply and the super speed gank would be lessened a bit.

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10 hours ago, WilsonMG said:

Yep.  Before this update came along and absolutely crushed our Clan's morale, we were actually ramping up to do a big giveaway during the upcoming Steam Halloween Sale, to bring in more new players by handing out copies of the game to our members who had it on their Steam Wishlist.  We might be a large community by most standards, but we're a non-profit entity, so we try to sync up our giveaways with Steam Sales.  The MG XO--my second-in-command, who assists me with overseeing the MG community--was also very active in Naval Action.  He owns a chain of game stores in Texas, and in recent months, he's been branching his business out to include selling game keys, and I know he was very interested in reaching out to the publishers of this game to start selling Naval Action Steam keys, and hopefully get it distributed to more players in the US, all because he believed in its potential.  As to whether he is still interested in that, I can't say, but in light of this game branch literally becoming almost nonexistent within the last few days, we definitely won't be doing a giveaway.

The primary causes for this sudden turn of events are the drastic, untested changes to the game mechanics resulting from this latest update, and the way admin chose to respond to any kind of constructive criticism regarding these issues.  Those responses crushed any hope any of our members might have been clinging to for these changes to be reverted.  Those issues, were the final straw for us.

Now, I've been here since the earliest days of this game, and a member of these forums for even longer, and I've weathered all kinds of crazy changes to the game the same as a lot of you have, but that was also during development, when it was to be expected.  These extreme changes to what is supposed to be a fully-released game broke the core game mechanics, and it dropped the bottom out of the already struggling player-driven economy, so much so that even our most-dedicated Naval Action Clan members decided that they had finally had enough, and were stepping back from the game.  As more them continued to voice their disappointment at the direction the game has taken with this update, it made me realize that I, too, no longer found the game to be rewarding for the time investment it requires.  After making our big post-release push to get our members back into Naval Action, and personally averaging between 4 to 8 hours a day in this game for the past 3 months straight, building our Clan into a competitive organization in a shorter amount of time than most, I've finally hit the wall, too.  It's becoming more and more clear to me that this game is being developed to cater to a hardcore, vocal minority within the playerbase.

I can't say for certain that our community is done with Naval Action for good, but after having spent years now working to get our community members engaged in this game, striving against the odds to keep them engaged in spite of the game's shortcomings, and having watched so many of them leave in favor of games that are more rewarding to them for their time, I would say the outlook is anything but great.

@admin PLEASE read this.

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Maybe we could listen to reason and just fix all of these problems by applying the speed boost to the map and not the individual player, so that ships will still behave as they should, and still have their designated roles and specialties, points of sail would still matter, and speed bonuses would be applied fairly to all players, and all ships, at all times, based on where they are, without the need for complex code changes, as I have suggested here: 

This system would still allow people to cover greater distances in much less time, and cut people off by sailing faster while farther out to sea (not a bad thing), and while it would still create some issues with the current ROE mechanics, that is a balance issue, not a core gameplay issue, like we have now.

You could even keep the button, or better yet, create a simple, random QTE so that it couldn't be activated while AFK or by bots/macros!

I think we would all like to see trade winds, or proper wind zones, but let's face it, that takes time to code, and Game-Labs needs to balance development time against the potential benefit to their customers so they can stay in business, and the engine has its own technical limitations, so the simplest solutions are the best solutions, and the most likely ones to be implemented.

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7 minutes ago, Wraith said:

If reals and doubloons are essentially accrued passively by time spent in game with no-risk or investment, then what's the point of even making us run cargo/passenger missions to get them?

Well that's either a flat out lie or an oversimplification.

Gathering reals and dubs with trade missions still takes time and effort.  There is risk and time investment.

Your oversimplification could be applied to grinding raid missions as well.  "Well, since I'm going to get them anyway eventually in the long run, why not just pay me an allowance"?

BTW, paying an allowance would be BRILLIANT.  People would go out and PvP and have fun, because they wouldn't be worried about losing ships.

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5 hours ago, rediii said:

The only problem I see with wind is that there are many around capitals but since all players that play around capitals will not sail close to them the attackers have a benefit of easier tagging. So aggressive playstyle benefits.

What could help here is getting the reenforcement zones back which should not spawn AI but make windbuffs disappear. (So raiders can't raid with 90% speedboost)

Thats the ONLY problem you see with the wind ??

Not that it is unrealistic in nature, defying the  advocated "realistic hardcore sailing simulation" ???

So for you its okay, that 2 Captains have different wind speeds in the same area ??

 

Then you changed completly your mind about the game, remembering all your posts from the last 3 years

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16 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Up until the most recent patch it literally is not an oversimplification. With a few alts you can pull down a few million and many thousands of doubs doing nothing other than 10 minutes of sailing, and then once every few days a 45 minute AFK sail, dropping off all your passengers and collecting the rewards.  If this isn't passive money accrual it's pretty damn close.

It absolutely was an oversimplification and it still is.

1.  Most people don't have alts.  And they certainly don't have "a few alts".

2.  Even if you had an alt, it sure as hell took more than 10 minutes.

3.  There is still risk involved.  Like holy hell son, go and do your "10 minute" AFK sail down the coast of Belize and see how far you get, on average, over the week.

17 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Ask yourself why people don't go out and do PvP and have fun now?  They don't need to worry about losing ships, hell you can go cap yourself a dock load of AI 1st rates and spend all day in the PvP zone... for literally the cost of what, a few minutes for each ship in a kill mission? Do you really need free reals and doubloons to justify doing this?

1.  Most people aren't admirals.

2.  Most people would like to stand a chance in a fight.  Taking a Mahogany/crew space ship into battle against a crafted one with mods and upgrades is pointless.  People don't join fights to get killed.

So yeah, grinding tens of thousands of dubs and millions of reals to be competitive in a fight IS A THING.

20 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Why even have crafting?

Because it's fun for a certain subset of players.  And unlike Loki runes or AI captures of ports or 85,000 dub shipyards that can only be afforded by people already in clans big enough to go on accept the risk of raids, crafting doesn't take away from anyone's game experience.

With almost every single change included in the patch, it has made getting ships tougher and more time-consuming, and it's increased the risk of getting the resources of getting them, and it's exposing players to more unwanted risks where they lose the ships they're grinding so hard for.  This reduces the incentive to PvP.  This increases the amount of time players need to grind before they have the resources to PvP.

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9 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

 

So for you its okay, that 2 Captains have different wind speeds in the same area ??

 

We already said it is totally realistic, just a bit exaggerated (because ow speed even basic ones exceed 100 and ow travel is abstract - everyone know it).
Its a known fact that two identical boats can have different wind speeds in the same area, especially on the borders between high/low pressure zones. In fact a ship can have 0 wind at all and another ship 1 mile away can give 2 knots.  Only in tradewinds the wind pressure is somewhat uniform and even then there are lower and higher pressure zones.

We plan to remove speed indicators some once we add the skill knot log (if this happens - not guaranteed). Removing indicators will bring peace of mind. 
In addition to that we will add barometer that will help predict wind change and wind strengh (changing speeds between classes in real time)
Current wind gusts will lock this all together. 

+ We no longer tolerate time wasting for hours. 

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2 hours ago, Wraith said:

If you can't tag while boosted then it's basically just an invulnerability tool for people.  You can't catch me while I'm boosted, and can't tag me if you're boosted.. therefore, I'll be boosted and safe from everyone.  Thanks, bye.

I'd argue to leave it as it is. It's purely a tool to shrink the world down and speed up player interactions for people who aren't AFK and learn how to use the new OW strategies it creates.

With some slight modifications, this would be fine.

For instance, change the battle timers to something much shorter. Rather than 20 minutes, why not 5? That's still a LOT of time to jump in, and would also prohibit players sailing from some ridiculous distance away.

Other than that, I really don't have too many gripes about the wind bonuses. Maybe change the implementation a little bit (maybe something other than a button, perhaps a "zone" where everyone passing through automatically gets it?"), but overall I just don't see a problem.

Good defensive tagging seems like it would be fairly easy in a t-lynx against a boosted Victory. The Vic would be lucky to stay within the circle at Ludicrous Speed.

"Spaceball One! They've gone to...plaid!"

 

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12 minutes ago, admin said:

We already said it is totally realistic, just a bit exaggerated (because ow speed even basic ones exceed 100+ miles per hour - we just show it as low for psychology). Its a known fact that two identical boats can have different wind speeds in the same area.

 

+ We no longer tolerate time wasting for hours. 

Sorry, just lol...you define now your own "realism" !

So you seriously want to tell me that in a sailing race when 2 boats are sailing in the same spot on open ocean, lets say for our gaming purposes inside a 1 km radius, have 2 totally different wind speeds ???

 

To your second point: completly new approach for NA ! When people complained about such things in the past, they always got the answer it has to be this way !

 

I give up... you are right and 90% of the playerbase is wrong

 

 

Edited by Sir Max Magic

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12 minutes ago, admin said:

...


We plan to remove speed indicators some once we add the skill knot log (if this happens - not guaranteed). Removing indicators will bring peace of mind. 
In addition to that we will add barometer that will help predict wind change and wind strenght (changing speeds between classes in real time)
Current wind gusts will lock this all together. 

....

 

This sounds like a pretty cool idea. If you could tie a barometer to "wind bonus zones," I think you'd have a pretty solid system.

 

What I mean is, rather than a pinpoint spot where you push a button, you see the Hg start dropping and, if you sail through a spot of some particular size, you get the bonus. Maybe the closer you get to the center, the greater the bonus, like a hurricane. And, if you added in the possibility of damage from the hurricane...made some dynamic OW storm graphics....

I think that would be pretty good, pretty immersive, and an all-around good addition to the game.

 

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13 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

Sorry, just lol...you define now your own "realism" !

So you seriously want to tell me that in a sailing race when 2 boats are sailing in the same spot on open ocean, lets say for our gaming purposes inside a 1 km radius, have 2 totally different wind speeds ???

Yes. Ask any professional sailing racer. 
Speed in the same spot - 1 meter away will not be different. Unless he is in the wind shadow. But 1-2km away speed can be very different. For identical racing boats. Just because of wind condition and wave condition.

So not sure where are you leading - Its not getting removed just because you do not like it.  We gave it 3 years to think about. 

NA map is condensed.
Jamaica is 150 miles and realistically it is totally possible to have stronger winds on one side of Jamaica. (5 minutes away in game time)
 

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1 minute ago, admin said:

Yes. Ask any professional sailing racer. 
Speed in the same spot - 1 m away will not be different. Unless he is in the wind shadow. But 1-2km away speed can be very different. For identical racing boats. Just because of wind condition and wave condition. 

Okay, lets just assume that this is right...but for what reasons have we then different fittings in NA ?

For what reason, should we think about wood composition, about mods...when everything we need to catch another player is the right wind boost at the right time ?

 

Everything was well balanced and people could calculate risk vs reward...now its all gone

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2 hours ago, Wraith said:

Your own reading comprehension here is failing you. My point, if you go back and read more carefully, is that if you limit tagging to people without speed boosts then it's giving people with speed boosts an unfair advantage.

No. 

I did not write that.

ūüôĄ

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1 hour ago, Wraith said:

For MG and its community, I mean, clearly for as long as you said you've been around, you clearly haven't contributed much to the community based on your post count @WilsonMG. Why is that?

Some of us are busy professionals, with many areas of responsibility in our daily lives that require proper time management, and we can't waste our entire day arguing with strangers on the internet.  I only come here when there's something important that needs to be addressed, like losing an entire segment of an online community practically overnight, due to poorly implemented game mechanics...

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2 minutes ago, Sir Max Magic said:

Okay, lets just assume that this is right...but for what reasons have we then different fittings in NA ?

For what reason, should we think about wood composition, about mods...when everything we need to catch another player is the right wind boost at the right time ?

 

Everything was well balanced and people could calculate risk vs reward...now its all gone

Risk vs reward is the same. Its just feels very new. 
Totally understand all reaction but we learnt to ignore initial outrage (you probably remember posts where people were OUTRAGED by 10 doubloon teleport fee saying it will kill the game)

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28 minutes ago, admin said:



We plan to remove speed indicators some once we add the skill knot log (if this happens - not guaranteed). Removing indicators will bring peace of mind. 
In addition to that we will add barometer that will help predict wind change and wind strengh (changing speeds between classes in real time)
Current wind gusts will lock this all together. 

+ We no longer tolerate time wasting for hours. 

That's cool.. Is possible also to have tool or skill to misure the deep of the water? And if is sand or rocks? In the second case, rock, could be cool to have hull damage or leak.. This also work on afk/alt Player that could lost the ship or also all the ships. Like in a storm, but also on quiet weather, a big wave.. You have to follow a tight path to evade it or you could lost the ship.. Just my 2 cent.. 

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On 10/22/2019 at 10:57 AM, admin said:

Because warships are faster than traders and warships sail faster in wind gusts.. But the boost is equal for everyone you can use them too.
Are you AFK trading by any chance. 

No, I do not AFK sail in general.

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1 hour ago, Wraith said:

Up until the most recent patch it literally is not an oversimplification. With a few alts you can pull down a few million and many thousands of doubs doing nothing other than 10 minutes of sailing, and then once every few days a 45 minute AFK sail, dropping off all your passengers and collecting the rewards.  If this isn't passive money accrual it's pretty damn close.

Did you figure that mechanic out?  It's not rocket science... 

Have the new mechanics changed this? Not really, it's cut the rate of that accrual down and made it yet more efficient to do rage boarding kill missions for doubs, but these are the efficiencies and meta-mechanics I'm talking about exploring.

Ask yourself why people don't go out and do PvP and have fun now?  They don't need to worry about losing ships, hell you can go cap yourself a dock load of AI 1st rates and spend all day in the PvP zone... for literally the cost of what, a few minutes for each ship in a kill mission? Do you really need free reals and doubloons to justify doing this?

And if you want to streamline the experience even further, why even have an OW, semi-player-driven economy at all then?  Why even have crafting?  Where you draw the line is really a matter of preference, but if you value something about the sandbox player experience then you should be all for a working, multi-activity-driven economy. And all this said, I'm not a fanboy here... anyone who knows me knows I've been hypercritical at times of the development decisions that have been made, and am not a supporter of the current economy/crafting system as it intersects with the game world. 

But blowing it up with no-risk passenger and cargo missions was always a crutch and it was high time it was replaced by something that required more active participation in the game world.

Wraith you have exactly zero clue what your talking about because you speak from the safety of the largest nation in game currently.... sure YOU can go out with 15alts and make godly money in 10 mins whilst watching videos on your other screen...  the rest of us didn't and still do not have that luxury.  And admins fix for the elite being TOO rich.. was to shoot the poor...  because now new players and small nations have little to no hope of sailing trade goods anywhere that will bring profit without getting smashed by the "pvp'rs"

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28 minutes ago, admin said:


Totally understand all reaction but we learnt to ignore initial outrage (you probably remember posts where people were OUTRAGED by 10 doubloon teleport fee saying it will kill the game)

Yep, thats a point i can wholeheartly agree with you¬†ūüĎć

 

...but in this case it is different because most people criticizing the implementation of winds

1. were some of your biggest defenders in the past

2. give CONSTRUCTIVE feedback

3. remembering you about the principles you gave yourself for the game

4. calling out all kinds of possible negative consequences of the current implementation in terms of gameplay AND realism

5. made so many suggestions for better implementation without all those negative implications on the gameplay

 

Its NOT that we arent used to it, it feels just completly wrong ! And it bothers us that you cant see all the negative effects

 

The most easily understandable simplification of our critics can be boiled down to one point:

A Victory should NEVER be able to catch a fast Frigate (or even smaller)...under no circumstances !

 

Pls think about it again :) 

 

Edited by Sir Max Magic

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28 minutes ago, admin said:

We already said it is totally realistic, just a bit exaggerated (because ow speed even basic ones exceed 100 and ow travel is abstract - everyone know it).
Its a known fact that two identical boats can have different wind speeds in the same area, especially on the borders between high/low pressure zones. In fact a ship can have 0 wind at all and another ship 1 mile away can give 2 knots.  Only in tradewinds the wind pressure is somewhat uniform and even then there are lower and higher pressure zones.


Yes, it is possible but the pockets of air pressure difference is area dependents. This means that you CAN be faster, but only in certain areas of the pressure pockets - specifically on the border. This means that if one ship travels inside the pressure pocket and the other ship travels on the outside of it they will have SLIGHTLY different apparent wind force that could translate into both a drag or a lift and depending on your POS both could be good or bad. The main issue is this: when racing In real life both vessels may correct their course and if one is loosing speed it may adjust its course and enter the pressure channel (generally caused by variation of temperatures) at ANY point of time and get the same lift. I one ship is using it, then the other can too. In the current mechanic there are no pressure pockets. Its an artificial point on the map that gives a speed boost that is available only there and then.

If you want it to be realistic then after tagging and entering a battle why do we not have the same speed boost. Yes we stopped and fought, but we fought in the SAME area where we sailed at the higher speed just minutes ago.

Bottom line point is that gasp winds and pressure pockets are areas and if anyone enters that area he may get speed boost WHILE in that area. And today the ship that is being chased cannot do that

 

 

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11 minutes ago, ZWAJO said:

Wraith you have exactly zero clue what your talking about because you speak from the safety of the largest nation in game currently.... sure YOU can go out with 15alts and make godly money in 10 mins whilst watching videos on your other screen...  the rest of us didn't and still do not have that luxury.  And admins fix for the elite being TOO rich.. was to shoot the poor...  because now new players and small nations have little to no hope of sailing trade goods anywhere that will bring profit without getting smashed by the "pvp'rs"

You should check mission rewards again. But its the best i can do.

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5 minutes ago, koltes said:

 

Thank you so much for your detailed explanation as someone with 20 years of Real Life sailing experience when most of us others are armchair sailors at best :) 

@adminpls read and evaluate :P 

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