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Seasonal Update: Treacherous Waters - Preliminary information

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Just now, Archaos said:

I agree with this, but what is happening in practice is that they are being used to gank players on ships they should not be able to catch.

They need to decide what the wind gusts were introduced for? was it to speed up travel in OW or was it just another tool to generate more battles?

I wasn't responding to a balancing post. I wrote in the line that you cut off that this needs balancing.

I was responding to the "this isn't realistic" argument from someone that wants to remove the new system entirely.

Removing this system is out of the question. It works well enough as a basis, and if this type of tagging becomes a constant issue, it can be hot-fixed. 

We should be discussing improvements, not whining about what was done. 

Reminder: MOST of this game's Customers NO LONGER PLAY. Ask people why they are leaving, and their complaints are the direct opposite of the crazies that decide to stay despite problems. 

1. Game feels like a job (yet to be addressed, but getting there)

2. Sailing takes too long between PvP opportunities. This is particularly problematic in RvR battles.

3. Large map and fewer players = fewer interactions = empty boring game = more people leaving. This is a self-feeding cycle. 

Realism or lack of Realism is not among first 100 issues. Maybe not within first 1000.

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1 minute ago, Tenet said:

I wasn't responding to a balancing post. I wrote in the line that you cut off that this needs balancing.

I was responding to the "this isn't realistic" argument from someone that wants to remove the new system entirely.

Removing this system is out of the question. It works well enough as a basis, and if this type of tagging becomes a constant issue, it can be hot-fixed. 

We should be discussing improvements, not whining about what was done. 

Reminder: MOST of this game's Customers NO LONGER PLAY. Ask people why they are leaving, and their complaints are the direct opposite of the crazies that decide to stay despite problems. 

1. Game feels like a job (yet to be addressed, but getting there)

2. Sailing takes too long between PvP opportunities. This is particularly problematic in RvR battles.

3. Large map and fewer players = fewer interactions = empty boring game = more people leaving. This is a self-feeding cycle. 

Realism or lack of Realism is not among first 100 issues. Maybe not within first 1000.

I have previously suggested a solution but the Devs prefer to argue semantics rather than acknowledge the issue. Basically you should not be able to tag someone while under the speed boost. You should have to drop out of speed boost and be at your normal speed before you can initiate the tag.

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3 minutes ago, Tenet said:

I was responding to the "this isn't realistic" argument from someone that wants to remove the new system entirely.

"Realistic" went out the window a long time ago when we were sailing directly into the wind.  This game cannot be played with 'realistic" sailing.

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11 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The salt, the whinge.. it's all just so... hyperbolic. What you are describing still applies to in-battle mechanics. What happens on the OW is completely disconnected from those mechanics and always has been. If you wanted realism, why not cry and moan about ship tows or teleporting? Why not cry and moan about unlimited ball ammo?  Why not cry and moan about the fact that we have no f'ing moon, and nights are 1/4 the length of day time?

Why?

Quality of life and game play. Which should always trump realism when it serves the purpose of getting people to the enjoyable parts of the game, which, let's face it, sorry crafters... are squarely focused on combat.  So embrace it.

A fix to the reals issue for battles:
Introducing ammunition constraints. I would back that 100% as a method to decrease overall income generation while still maintaining realism. It would also engage the crafting players as another dynamic worth handling, have a bigger impact on the larger clans, and work to develop the game even more.


Skybox's can be expensive to develop. I love me the gorgeous ships, and am willing to wait for the development of the skybox to include a moon. I wasn't sold on the realism of the sky, but the realism of the ship mechanics.

The advertisement for the game does not differentiate between OW and instance combat. It shouldn't be disconnected.

As these are the changes that have been made by the devs, of course were going to discuss, comment, and explain our opinions. Ive only put in a little over 200 hours. Im still putting together my list of things I would direct attention to changing, but most of the game im rather happy with and enjoying.
 

Sorry PVPers, youre not the only demographic, but know that without crafters or utility stuff, your not going to be doing much in the way of enjoyable fighting or sailing.

Edited by Dread Pirate West
Modifying comment.

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2 minutes ago, Dread Pirate West said:

Introducing ammunition constraints

Huge mistake.  We already have to sail for ages just to find a battle.  Even with it being easier now, can you imagine having to return to base after every fight?

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Just now, Angus MacDuff said:

Huge mistake.  We already have to sail for ages just to find a battle.  Even with it being easier now, can you imagine having to return to base after every fight?

Why, afraid of getting ganked when you have no ammunition because you didn't fight smart, conserve your shots, fight tactically? Forgot to bring a trader with supplies for you to resupply your fighting ship while raiding? It will just introduce additional realism to your fighting, and make you, the player, have to make additional decisions when conducting your raids. No more sitting outside a port grabbing every ship on its way out, do you only hit juicy targets, small targets, or low cost targets? Do you hit the single high value one that will have you heading home sooner if you win?

Heck, most of the time I return to port after a fight in order to use repairs that are significantly less expensive than at sea stuff.

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4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

While I'm all for putting more and more of the economy in the hands of players and player production, limited ammo makes no sense in the context of an action game.  Why are you trying to keep players from playing the game? All of your moaning is basically amounting to a desire to keep people from interacting with other players and finding combat in the most expeditious way.

Again.. I refer you to the name of the game.

Im not advocating keeping players from combat. Trade winds are a brilliant idea, congesting traders into lanes in order to get them to move quickly through an area, or sending them on smuggling runs out of trade lanes. The specific implementation here is impactful, but the core concept is realistic.

Mostly im against the cutting down of the economy. Doubloon rewards dissapearing, rather than being reduced. Every pirate port I visited was absent doubloon rewards for cargo missions. Every single one of the Country capitals, MT, and most of the surrounding ports.

We can have more people sailing if you give them incentive to sail. Cutting the reward down? Okay. Eliminating it completely like was done with trade goods? When was the last time you caught a player sailing with trade goods they hadn't picked up from an AI trader or bottle?

For the ammunition stuff, we already have limited chain. It merely expands what youre funds need to go to on the higher cost ships, while small and medium vessels tend to have negligable costs. In addition, as youre sailing and fighting you could pick up extra ammo from your targets, which if they were based off cannon weight, would mean the raider has to choose if they want to be able to get lots of ammo off ships with their weight gun, or punch higher up their weight in order to get bigger prizes. Tradeoffs and tactics.

Its a tactical game of Naval Action, not the Arcade game Naval Combat.

Action implies multiple aspects, not just combat. Sailing, trading, fighting, fishing, etc.

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5 minutes ago, Dread Pirate West said:

For the ammunition stuff, we already have limited chain. It merely expands what youre funds need to go to on the higher cost ships, while small and medium vessels tend to have negligable costs. In addition, as youre sailing and fighting you could pick up extra ammo from your targets, which if they were based off cannon weight, would mean the raider has to choose if they want to be able to get lots of ammo off ships with their weight gun, or punch higher up their weight in order to get bigger prizes. Tradeoffs and tactics.

Its a tactical game of Naval Action, not the Arcade game Naval Combat.

Action implies multiple aspects, not just combat. Sailing, trading, fighting, fishing, etc.

Sounds nice in theory, in practice it means there is little point to go adventuring for pvp since it is very all or nothing, being the attacker in pvp with this system becomes even higher costs = less people willing to put the effort in to find pvp = deader map. nice idea in theory, but in practice it would = more players giving up on PvP. Why sail for hours to have 1 battle and be out of ammo when i could just sit in capital and wait for some players to MAYBE come, the balance becomes in favour of camping in ports with your suggestion

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I have to admit that I had so much fun with a patch for a long time, I loved the whole patch, they have made the game more dynamic and fun, my congratulations.

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18 hours ago, Destraex said:

I will take anything I can get with regard to wind speeds in the open world. However I would have liked it better if the gusts were in a particular direction and consistent for everybody. i.e. even if you are away from keyboard you hit a gust and automatically use it for the length the gust exists in.

This would both speed up ships going the right direction and slow down ships going in the wrong direction. You would be able to see gusts by looking at the in game weather skyboxes, determine direction on the map after clicking on them in game and if you are paying attention and sail towards them.

In PVE which I currently play, the current mechanic is fine as a mechanic. But in PVP I imagine that their are many exploits. Including the double edged sword of sitting on a gust and waiting for people to leave battle. However I guess you can click on a gust from far enough away that this should not matter? 

I am happy enough with the mechanic. But would have preferred the above.

This ^^

@admin  Great to see implementation of weather and variable winds. Could use tweaks though.  Went out in a Prince and caught I gust that had me going 50 knts @90 degrees! So it was a bit more than 50% greater than the normal speed. That kind of boost implies storm level winds and we should be shortening sail. Seems a bit too much, but ok it is to reduce travel time I get it.  But it lasts way too long.

Gusts really should be just a spot on the map that everyone benefits from by being there not a moving zone that travels with you when you hit the button. Should really be in a certain direction too. You could leave the markers on the map for visualization. Leaving the gust as a zone on the map, which could be large or small, might just take care of the ganking fears as well. AFK sailors could still miss the area just like irl if you are not keeping a lookout for better wind. 

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7 hours ago, rediii said:

If you can't overload your ship anymore you can't get it on your ship though. right?

@van der Clam

OVERLOAD WORKAROUND!

Switch to enemy ship
Split the cargo
Drop to your ship
Switch back. 

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My follow up feedback based on yesterday play.

 

WINDS

Wind gasp is good to have, but it is a fantasy that two ships in one location and time have different wind speed. I will be fine with OW proposed weather system or trade winds. I will even be fine if specific areas just give speed boosts (quite a bit away from the shore) or they can be directional. But they have to be SAME for all ships in that given location. 
I sailed for 20 years. Wind gasps are not some point in the ocean where it suddenly blows. Its a continues wind channel and anyone entering that channel will experience A SERIES of wind gasps because wind in that channel is wild.

The way the wind mechanic was implemented is not a wind gasp, but more of a wind slingshot. And that is far from being realistic. 
 

OPEN WORLD

I sailed for 5 hours yesterday. I have been around KPR, I jumped to Tombado and sailed from there to Russian territory. I used my alt to sail from Rio Seco up to US. In overall I found about 95% less teaders. I dont know why. Or what was the reason behind it. But its a fact. Normally I would get 10+ easy averaging 3 per hour. Yesterday I got 2 for 5 hours sailing with server population been higher than usual. I will test more, but if this going to be continues business this tells me that there will be drastic reduction of trader targets in OW.

I’ll let you decide if this is a bad or a good thing

Edited by koltes
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When traders can fly through the world, the chance of catching them is drastical reduced. 

... and with it pvp is reduced. But wasn't it the devs goal to increase pvp?

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7 minutes ago, Sea Archer said:

When traders can fly through the world, the chance of catching them is drastical reduced. 

... and with it pvp is reduced. But wasn't it the devs goal to increase pvp?

Another way to address this would be to have the speed bonus disengage automatically whenever another player comes into sight. I think that would fairly address the concerns everyone has expressed.

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4 hours ago, Ink said:

Captains,

you can try to switch to the target ship, split items in the cargo and then swtich back to the main ship

Hallo Ink, will I not loose may books when I do so? I thought changing ship will cause the knowledge slots to be resetted?

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4 hours ago, Tortue Agile said:


And it's possible for 2 people to be at the same spot with one benefiting of the gust (that gave him the boost earlier) while the other one is not because he didn't start at the same place.
So from what I know.. winds and gusts don't work this way.

No.. They work exactly this way
In fact two yachts sailing at parallel course 500m away from each other - one сould have a benefit of the gust (small wind spot) and another wont - too far away.
Ask any cup sailor.
This features exactly because we sailed an actual yacht seeing this in effect, other things were moved in the roadmap to get it in. Other changes are also planned.


For everyone. We are very happy about wind gusts and do not plan to change the concept in any way. The only thing subject to change is bonuses and maybe time. They work exactly like they work in real life in the form the technology allows. 

 

32 minutes ago, Obi-Heed Kenobi said:

Another way to address this would be to have the speed bonus disengage automatically whenever another player comes into sight. I think that would fairly address the concerns everyone has expressed.

 

  • We do not plan to disable attack for ships affected by gusts (this will defeat the purpose of - travel faster if you are smart - and find targets faster).  Removing attack/defend will make this feature a safe travel option. 
  • We also do not plan to disengage when players come to sight. If you are faster other players cant slow you. Whats next? Magical debuffs like in wow, "turn into sheep for 1 min"
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37 minutes ago, Sea Archer said:

When traders can fly through the world, the chance of catching them is drastical reduced. 

... and with it pvp is reduced. But wasn't it the devs goal to increase pvp?

Killing traders is hardly meaningful PvP. But in actual fact this patch works out worse for the traders as the hunters can camp the wind gust points and intercept the traders before they can use them. The hunters can now catch traders they would have struggled to catch previously.

This patch actually suits people who enjoy PvP all the time and is not good for people who PvE. Now if you go out to PvE OW ships a player can jump in and take control of the AI ship using Loki Rune. People can see the location of OW battles with aid of Log book and decide which ones to join or which ones to camp outside of. Now even fast trader ships can be caught by much bigger ships that have the speed boost. So this patch has increased PvP but I feel it may be at the expense of players who enjoy PvE and I think the game needs both types of players to survive.

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This patch has to be the most tone deaf I have ever seen, and given I play games by EA and ActivisionBilz that's an actual accomplishment.  Not only did you not address any of the issues players have been requesting be addressed for awhile now, but you managed to change and or break things that were never a problem.  I don't know if the dev's code by mongoDB readout or if they actually play the game but this very much feels like the kind of patch I have seen in other projects I have worked on where the attitude becomes, we worked x amount of hours at x cost on this.. we're gonna deploy it broken or not.  Well congrats you deployed it.. and I know of at least 5-6 players who've quit already and myself I wont say I am quiting… but you can be sure I'll not be buying any more DLC and will be considering a shift to peace server, since I'll only be logging on to scratch to shoot a ship itch on occasion.

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7 hours ago, Wraith said:

These changes don't deny you the opportunity. They just reward people that, I don't know, actually play a game instead of passively let it churn away in the background.  This is equivalent to anti-clicker code placed in other well known MMOs that discourages botting.

I think that's at the heart of a lot of the salt in this thread... basically people are bent out of shape because they can't passively sail their passenger missions around, collecting 1000s of doubs an hour across multiple alts, all while binge watching Lifetime shows with literally no risk. The horror of actually having to go out and participate in some PvE/PvP to attain doubs... Or the horror of having to risk some money to make money to instead buy those doubs from players who are risking the ships to PvE/PvP, etc. who are then buying the ships from the crafters who are buying the doubs, or doing the econ missions to support the crafting! 

IT"S MADNESS!!1! ;) 

Seriously: This is a multiplayer, sandbox game. If you're solo, I feel for you but adjust your expectations accordingly. If you're a PvPer, then get used to having to rely on PvE'ers to provide some things for you that you'll have to pay for (doubloons), e.g. in exchange for the things that you can provide more easily to them (combat medals). And if you're a crafter, then get used to making some reals doing real, trade-good based econ, so you can pay the PvE/PvP'ers for those marks and medals.

This is the foundation of a more sane economy.

Coming from the nation that runs 15 indainmen multibox fleets the hypocrisy is staggering...

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19 minutes ago, ZWAJO said:

Not only did you not address any of the issues players have been requesting be addressed for awhile now

OW speed....

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Just now, Angus MacDuff said:

OW speed....

But they didn't not really, they put in a Mario kart esque power up that you run over if you see it... IF someone else doesn't first... otherwise its business as usual... you act like your doing those speeds all the time now... lets get real.

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