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Player Raids Explained - Small group content for War and Peace Server

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1 hour ago, Rickard said:

did you ask the community for possible sollutions to abuse, holding, taking fake raids, etc.?? the flag system can be made better and more user friendly so what ideas did you have for possibly eliminating abuse, holding, taking fake raids??


Raids were EXTENSIVELY discussed with the community from the end of 2016. There were even detailed explanations of options 

There were even polls by us

and by others… 
Alts and trolls and griefing was also discussed with the community in public and in private. Your question assumes the opposite. 

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1 hour ago, AeRoTR said:

What am I missing here ? Port owner gives permission for raid defence, clan only or + friends or +nation and clan owners know the consequences !

 

You are missing the spoon of shit in the barrel of whiskey. Which can be spoiling the whole barrel.

Alts exist in all mmmos and should be always taken into account. But Alts are a minor problem.
Main problem is griefing and raid denial by using friends and other nations. And even 6 griefers can ruin the raid for many (If it is symmetric pvp only event)

The main goal is to be for everyone and without griefing. Which means it must work even if there are only 6 players online. Which means it cannot be pvp only.

BUT

Raid chest delivery is the PVP part. Picking the chest is not the event. The event is bringing it back. 
Your pvp event is to find the raiders and sink them. Their goal is to avoid you. It is the PVP pure age of sail pvp.
 
Those who wanted raid to be a pvp 6v6 battle arranged fair battle go to patrols. Raid is an asymmetric event for EVERYONE. 

 

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The time will show if its good implementation of raid or not, but it sounds very good. I like that this cant be easily exploited with alts 

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3 hours ago, admin said:

You do not need a key if you open the the chest in the raid mission origin. 
Having said that - we want to make raiding chest carriers interesting without lots of hoops jumping. 

 

Asked him - he said its fine with him.. Loot is loot. It does not matter if it is on the docks or already loaded into the ship. 

if the port of origin in a nation control port then opening the chest if captured from the raiders becomes impossible because u cant enter another nation port unless sailing a trading ship

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17 minutes ago, admin said:



Raid chest delivery is the PVP part. Picking the chest is not the event. The event is bringing it back. 
Your pvp event is to find the raiders and sink them. Their goal is to avoid you. It is the PVP pure age of sail pvp.
 
Those who wanted raid to be a pvp 6v6 battle arranged fair battle go to patrols. Raid is an asymmetric event for EVERYONE. 

 

Ok, I now understand this better.

I think this is the best explanation about it, I also think with raids being like this - as you said "for now" they won't kill investments of the owner of the port.

This can be a really really fun type of situation, but it also requires players to be vigilant.

 

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29 minutes ago, Staunberg said:

It can. As @rediii said what prevent me from using an alt in another nation to raid my own port. I just let nation know it is an alt raid and can do it in peace.

Trust me it will be exploited.

Actually there is no reason dutch, danes and swedes who are allied could not make a mutual agreement to raid each other freely. I feel like this will be the case.

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4 hours ago, admin said:

Asked him - he said its fine with him.. Loot is loot. It does not matter if it is on the docks or already loaded into the ship. 

this is a sandbox mmo game, yes?

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2 minutes ago, Flinch said:

Actually there is no reason dutch, danes and swedes who are allied could not make a mutual agreement to raid each other freely. I feel like this will be the case.

So many creative-exploit thinkers. I guess we are going to end up with the port owners paying in some way for a successful raid on their port if only to deter exploiting and to encourage a PvP defence.

Buster

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21 minutes ago, Flinch said:

Actually there is no reason dutch, danes and swedes who are allied could not make a mutual agreement to raid each other freely. I feel like this will be the case.

*sigh* We found another one. 

There are currently no alliances between the nations on the east side of the map. Yeah Swedes and French sometimes help each other out, and the same goes with the Danes and Dutch, but it is far from a real alliance. It's astounding that so many players keep assuming this while somehow not noticing the endless slaughter between the Danes and Swedes. We seriously hate each other.

Edited by Latron

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10 minutes ago, Latron said:

*sigh* We found another one. 

There are currently no alliances between the nations on the east side of the map. Yeah Swedes and French sometimes help each other out, and the same goes with the Danes and Dutch, but it is far from a real alliance. It's astounding that so many players keep assuming this while somehow not noticing the endless slaughter between the Danes and Swedes. We seriously hate each other.

I have personally shown up to screen at Ponce 3 times to help the Danes as Dutch. An rvr agreement is an alliance.

 

The swedes and french have a pve agreement where they dont attack each other's pve ships. Whats stopping them from raiding each other safely?

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4 minutes ago, Flinch said:

I have personally shown up to screen at Ponce 3 times to help the Danes as Dutch. An rvr agreement is an alliance.

 

The swedes and french have a pve agreement where they dont attack each other's pve ships. Whats stopping them from raiding each other safely?

 One agreement does not mean it's an alliance. An alliance means not attacking each other at all in any form. And a pve agreement? What even is that? We attack each other all the time.

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4 minutes ago, Staunberg said:

Why should we be hating the Swedes? 

We go over to Gustavia in 5 rates. Often alone ore in small groups. Thats not hate. Thats just to make small battles, in easy to replace ships. 

Yes we in general get ganked. Thats the game. We do hope that the Swedish captain, in time will see the benefit for both part,  to come in 5 rate and more ore less same size groups. Will be great and fun fights. But untill that happens we take the ganking, because we know it will take time to understand the benefit for both side. We use easy to replace ships, with no upgrades. 

So PvP against a even skilled opponent, where the lose is easy to replace. Well thats basicly content, training and fun for all. Would we offer that to somebody we hate?

Fair enough if the swedish hate us, but dont say we hate you, because we dont. We love you. And we would love you even more, if you to put your hand forward, accepted oure invite to some fun content, for both side.

We have attempted to have a better relationship with Denmark many times, but certain groups within your nation truly do hate us, and some clans have chosen to side with the Russians when they've engaged Sweden in the past. Of course not all clans in Denmark are bad, but those who like to ruin the fun for everyone make it impossible to get along when they interfere with important battles.

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19 minutes ago, Latron said:

 One agreement does not mean it's an alliance. An alliance means not attacking each other at all in any form. And a pve agreement? What even is that? We attack each other all the time.

Why are you being contrarian for no reason. There is no reason to deny an rvr alliance exist.

Also Ive witnessed the french/swedish pve agreement. Since AI ships of another nation only spawn at enemy ports. The french and swedes pve along their border and dont attack each other.(rogue clans dont follow this)

If you attack a swede with a Dutch flag on your ship they get confused thinking you are french and complain your breaking the french/swedish agreement. 

My point still stands. There is literally NO MECHANIC to prevent two friendly nations from raiding each other since there is no negative effect from being raided.

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1 hour ago, Staunberg said:

It can. As @rediii said what prevent me from using an alt in another nation to raid my own port. I just let nation know it is an alt raid and can do it in peace.

Trust me it will be exploited.

 

1 hour ago, Flinch said:

Actually there is no reason dutch, danes and swedes who are allied could not make a mutual agreement to raid each other freely. I feel like this will be the case.

A trading ship carrying very expensive cargo to a distant port is a target even if it is an alt. We do not care if an alt sails outside and you should to. As long as it is attackable for profit. 

+ We did not say there will be no consequences for the raided port going forward. We said there we might add them in the future if raids become popular.

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53 minutes ago, admin said:

 

A trading ship carrying very expensive cargo to a distant port is a target even if it is an alt. We do not care if an alt sails outside and you should to. As long as it is attackable for profit. 

+ We did not say there will be no consequences for the raided port going forward. We said there we might add them in the future if raids become popular.

trust me it will be exploited, just as the RoE was exploited by pirates, just as most of us predicted LONG before you redid the mechanic.

And do you know why people would dare to do the exploit? Its because you only give warnings and a clap on the players back and say dont do it more then this time, if you make something CLEAR stick by it and people will probably not exploit stuff in your game, but then again you would have to ban most of the 1000 players left in the game.

 

Besides a raid happened with 1 ship, it happened with 2 ships, it happened with 20 ships, having this game as a sandbox mmo as you've said earlier contradicts to it, yes you can see yourself fighting other ships aswell as the forts, or you can see yourself sneak into the port sacking the port without much combat (quick in n' out mission).

But the mechanic you're going with is literally like when you attack a player that has hit his destination port, he is afk with his 3 escort AI warships and random group are passing by engaging close to the port, boards him in the first 10 minutes, grabs the most valuable stuff and leaves.

Edited by Guest

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4 hours ago, rediii said:

So now I can raid my own port with alts all day long and multiply the investments?

No one would be such a hello kitty to do this. And, if @admin wants, when you announce it's an alt raid, there is the proof of using alts in a manner unintended for the game.

1 hour ago, RubyRose said:

if the port of origin in a nation control port then opening the chest if captured from the raiders becomes impossible because u cant enter another nation port unless sailing a trading ship

Which means we will see a lot more Indiamans on the seas :D

1 hour ago, Staunberg said:

It can. As @rediii said what prevent me from using an alt in another nation to raid my own port. I just let nation know it is an alt raid and can do it in peace.

Trust me it will be exploited.

Same answer to redii above. Announce it's an alt raid and viola there's punishable proof...if admin so chooses.

3 minutes ago, admin said:

 

A trading ship carrying very expensive cargo to a distant port is a target even if it is an alt. We do not care if an alt sails outside and you should to. As long as it is attackable for profit. 

+ We did not say there will be no consequences for the raided port going forward. We said there we might add them in the future if raids become popular.

Consider making an announcement now that alt raiding is forbidden? Can't wait for the raids to affect the port owner and anyone with buildings there. But let's test away.

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Ive never seen a 'might' or 'maybe' from Admin lead to something.

After all the amount of shit that is reported in tribunal and unanswered would point to the fact that admin doesnt give a shit if mechanics are exploited.

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@admin

is it possible als to have a raid for 3 members?

like say... small raids in the mission section. 

because i can imagine it can be hard for smaller clans to come up with the numbers (6) at a certain point when those events come available.

of course there is no indiaman but a lgv type of chest or something in that order.

Edited by Thonys

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1 hour ago, van der Clam said:

No one would be such a hello kitty to do this. And, if @admin wants, when you announce it's an alt raid, there is the proof of using alts in a manner unintended for the game.

Ehm

We will repeat.
Steam and game rules say - if you bought the game and have not broken any rules you can play the game without any limitations. 
This means if you have bought 10 copies you can play on all of them without limits unless you broke the rules (for example interfered repeatedly in the port battle activities)

Alt = logged in player. We allow alts because steam allows alts. Attempts to present alts as bad should be directed to steam support requesting them to ban players for usage of multiple steam client on the same computer or from the same IP. Alts exist in all games (or twinks). 

So for us - Alt is just a player. Unless he breaks game rules. 

If a player sails to sink an npc and get a reward its allowed. 
If a player sails to raid a port - it's allowed. 
This event is for everyone = for every logged in player.

They are the target in both cases and can be sank by others. If others wish to do so. (steal their chest)

 

 

Now i think you misread the consequences word
We said we will be consequences if the event will become popular. Which means lots of rewards will be generated lots of traffic around the area will pass making it useful to stop the raiders because there could be consequences for the PORT.
For example if 1000 chests are stolen during the day - something will happen with the port on the next day. Something bad*. Meaning the server can really **** someone up if they gang up on the port (getting the reward increases - making raiding yourself somewhat counterproductive. 
 

* who knows what that collective of raiders would do.. Morgan and Sores just burnt them.. 

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3 hours ago, admin said:

Raid chest delivery is the PVP part. Picking the chest is not the event. The event is bringing it back. 

Your pvp event is to find the raiders and sink them. Their goal is to avoid you. It is the PVP pure age of sail pvp.
 
Those who wanted raid to be a pvp 6v6 battle arranged fair battle go to patrols. Raid is an asymmetric event for EVERYONE. 

 

You should make the chest unable to be deleted while at sea. I suspect many chests will be deleted when they see a fleet of 20 ships outside waiting for them.

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domanda @admin

sarebbe possibile testare il raid sul server di prova prima di avviarlo su quello principale ??

Edited by Fumadrago

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6 hours ago, Rabman said:

You should make the chest unable to be deleted while at sea. I suspect many chests will be deleted when they see a fleet of 20 ships outside waiting for them.

You can't delete deadmans chests (I've tried) so I think they've thought of that one 

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@admin
I have a few questions about the whole raiding mechanic.
As you stated this is intended to be content for small groups. I welcome that. I do see some problems though at the moment.

What happens once the raid is completed?

In OW there is no mechanic to limit numbers so the small group that has sucessfully raided a port must now get one of the slowest ships in the game, a fully laden Indiaman, back to their home base against potentially UNLIMITED enemy numbers. If they have enough players the enemies can literally throw trash ships at you until you run out of repairs.
So unless a sizable fleet is there to escort the raiders they will have a hard time getting anywhere even if they take fast ships made for OW pvp, as their prize will be dead slow. Turning it again into content that favours large groups.

The only way I see to keep this endeavour possible for small groups is to not have any indication whatsoever for the defenders that a raid has happened, relying on luck that it does not get spotted by chance. Which in turn greatly reduces the chance of actual PvP happening. Finding a balance between the two will be an interesting task for sure....

Edited by Tom Farseer
spelling, formatting
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5 hours ago, rediii said:

Will the defending nation know that a raid has happened?

They will know it, either before the raid or during it. Otherwise, no PVP out of the raid. The will have at least 30 mins to organize the interception of raiders on their return way, and probably more. 

But I wonder how a small group of players can get out of a big nation main port (in terms of tax income) without being scrapped out, losing the Indianman and all their ships. 

In other terms, I wonder how the raid cannot be made for the only benefit of the big nation, which was initially the raided one.

Want to see that on YouTube...

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