Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
Lady Athena

True Open World and some words of wisdom.

Recommended Posts

In an open world, wouldn't players naturally concentrate in regions anyway?  Meaning that player interactions would take place in denser regions (English Channel, Mediterranean, Carribean, Indian Ocean, and other natural/historical chokepoints of trade-> battles for such trade routes).  The two-hour player would be interacting with other two-hour players, with the occasional (maybe common) interaction/sighting of the Lady Athenas of the game.

 

Time and/or distance compression should be incorporated, but I understand what Lady Athena is saying.  The compression should allow regional actions to take place without the unrealistic instant reinforcement from other regions.

 

Decisions to sail to the Mediterranean (or other regions) should be thought out and take some time to undertake.  If reports are received of increased pressure on territories in the Mediterranean, there shouldn't be an instant reinforcement of that region.  The campaign to reinforce the Mediterranean should take some thought and planning.  Conversely, that is exactly what an enemy organization should be able to take into account, that they have only one day or two to achieve their objectives in a given region, before the reinforcement fleets start to arrive.

 

 

A successful war game should reward the logistical nature of planning a campaign just as much as it should reward the individual pvp/gladiator prowess of players and individual fleets.  If a logistical victory results, in a successful rout or overwhelming scenario in an open sea battle, that to me sounds like an awesome triumph of planning and execution.  The gladiator might not like it, but a good in-depth game should allow for a comprehensive suite of options to field a ship, battle fleet, trading fleet of ships, and/or port side economic trade.

 

Yes, it is awesome that a single player is elite in commanding his ship.  It should also be awesome that another player is elite enough in planning for such an encounter with an elite Captain.  

 

Open World allows for campaigns that last longer than a single pvp battle.

 

It seems Arena-based instances look to be staying (if my recent review of forum posts are any indication).  All fair and instant fights can be experienced there.  

 

"If you are in a fair fight, you didn't plan it properly."

-CWO Nick Lappos

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In an open world, wouldn't players naturally concentrate in regions anyway?  Meaning that player interactions would take place in denser regions (English Channel, Mediterranean, Carribean, Indian Ocean, and other natural/historical chokepoints of trade-> battles for such trade routes).  The two-hour player would be interacting with other two-hour players, with the occasional (maybe common) interaction/sighting of the Lady Athenas of the game.

 

Time and/or distance compression should be incorporated, but I understand what Lady Athena is saying.  The compression should allow regional actions to take place without the unrealistic instant reinforcement from other regions.

 

Decisions to sail to the Mediterranean (or other regions) should be thought out and take some time to undertake.  If reports are received of increased pressure on territories in the Mediterranean, there shouldn't be an instant reinforcement of that region.  The campaign to reinforce the Mediterranean should take some thought and planning.  Conversely, that is exactly what an enemy organization should be able to take into account, that they have only one day or two to achieve their objectives in a given region, before the reinforcement fleets start to arrive.

 

 

A successful war game should reward the logistical nature of planning a campaign just as much as it should reward the individual pvp/gladiator prowess of players and individual fleets.  If a logistical victory results, in a successful rout or overwhelming scenario in an open sea battle, that to me sounds like an awesome triumph of planning and execution.  The gladiator might not like it, but a good in-depth game should allow for a comprehensive suite of options to field a ship, battle fleet, trading fleet of ships, and/or port side economic trade.

 

Yes, it is awesome that a single player is elite in commanding his ship.  It should also be awesome that another player is elite enough in planning for such an encounter with an elite Captain.  

 

Open World allows for campaigns that last longer than a single pvp battle.

 

It seems Arena-based instances look to be staying (if my recent review of forum posts are any indication).  All fair and instant fights can be experienced there.  

 

"If you are in a fair fight, you didn't plan it properly."

-CWO Nick Lappos

 

Exactly my point. +1  

 

Reinforcing from an adjacent 'region' could be a possibility but it all comes down to how large and real/possible such a situation could or even should be.

 

The extra caution you could take when undertaking a long voyage would be provisions of various sort:- medicines/water/rations, and suitable spare parts, sailcloth, spars etc. Other than that I can't imagine what extra planning you would need aside from a destination and route.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Exactly my point. +1  

 

Reinforcing from an adjacent 'region' could be a possibility but it all comes down to how large and real/possible such a situation could or even should be.

 

The extra caution you could take when undertaking a long voyage would be provisions of various sort:- medicines/water/rations, and suitable spare parts, sailcloth, spars etc. Other than that I can't imagine what extra planning you would need aside from a destination and route.

 

 

In an open world, wouldn't players naturally concentrate in regions anyway?  Meaning that player interactions would take place in denser regions (English Channel, Mediterranean, Carribean, Indian Ocean, and other natural/historical chokepoints of trade-> battles for such trade routes).  The two-hour player would be interacting with other two-hour players, with the occasional (maybe common) interaction/sighting of the Lady Athenas of the game.

 

Time and/or distance compression should be incorporated, but I understand what Lady Athena is saying.  The compression should allow regional actions to take place without the unrealistic instant reinforcement from other regions.

 

Decisions to sail to the Mediterranean (or other regions) should be thought out and take some time to undertake.  If reports are received of increased pressure on territories in the Mediterranean, there shouldn't be an instant reinforcement of that region.  The campaign to reinforce the Mediterranean should take some thought and planning.  Conversely, that is exactly what an enemy organization should be able to take into account, that they have only one day or two to achieve their objectives in a given region, before the reinforcement fleets start to arrive.

 

 

A successful war game should reward the logistical nature of planning a campaign just as much as it should reward the individual pvp/gladiator prowess of players and individual fleets.  If a logistical victory results, in a successful rout or overwhelming scenario in an open sea battle, that to me sounds like an awesome triumph of planning and execution.  The gladiator might not like it, but a good in-depth game should allow for a comprehensive suite of options to field a ship, battle fleet, trading fleet of ships, and/or port side economic trade.

 

Yes, it is awesome that a single player is elite in commanding his ship.  It should also be awesome that another player is elite enough in planning for such an encounter with an elite Captain.  

 

Open World allows for campaigns that last longer than a single pvp battle.

 

It seems Arena-based instances look to be staying (if my recent review of forum posts are any indication).  All fair and instant fights can be experienced there.  

 

"If you are in a fair fight, you didn't plan it properly."

-CWO Nick Lappos

 

Exactly. There will be "Choke points" for example, natural choke points especially if they do make a representation of the world. There will be enough room per say for everybody anyway. Even if sailing takes some time. Sure you may not cross an hour across the ocean to America from England, but you could easily sail in 10 minutes to the English Channel and fight a few fights.

 

Thank you for extended explanations. And yes, they are needed on both sides ;)

 

-snip-

 

See I knew it had to be some form of mis understanding. It seems you and I are not saying nearly as different things as it seemed before. I think what other people have said already greatly meets the middle ground between us as well, with the natural choke points of the Mediterranean and English Channel, etc, as compared to the  more open area's like America/Europe, or England - Denmark. The game can naturally favor both playing styles very easily without sacrificing much at all, if anything. Players with only a few hours to play can easily leave port from London, and find some quick action against France along the English Channel, while players with more time, or have planned for a long voyage can set out to Denmark and back, or even to America.

 

Using the natural land masses as a way to split the game-play can already create a natural middle ground. This is something I believe is very important to point out to the developers, instead of attempting to install a fake mechanism such as time speed or "quick travel".

 

Can you explain where is the fun or replayability value in sailing long distances? Essentially you will be playing almost a single-player game because everything is so dragged out and desolated that it will be a rarity to meet another player in the vast world since most action will be around the main zones likely in the centre, not at the ghost towns in the border regions of the map.

Also this game will likely be more about skill than gear: easy to learn - hard to master as it should be since it would be ridiculous to lose to someone clearly less skilled who has invested a lifetime into the game while getting an upper hand because of some unique item.

Sharpening your skills to be a better player instead of mindlessly farming some unique item that gives you upper hand by some statistical numbers to stay competitive should be valued much more and I'm glad that the equipment-based games are dying out.

 

 

Like many have pointed out, with the natural choke points. There can be action for everyone, or more easy going if you desire by using or avoiding those choke points.

 

However to answer your question. It's not fun for everyone. But again, if you don't want to spend more than 5 minutes sailing, why are you playing a sailing game? Despite the game being called "Naval Action" It doesn't mean it has to be an "Action Adventure" either. There can still be plenty of Naval Action to go around, and still take some time to get between Point A and point B.

 

So where's the fun? Because of what you might, or might not find along the way.. Take my example above in my OP. That's just 100's of things that could have happened. The enjoyment and excitement is setting out for a port not knowing what awaits you on the open water. If that's not your thing, then I have to ask again why you're playing this game. :huh:

 

It's already been stated to be an Open World.. I'd find it a crying shame that the world is so small it's scarcely could be called "Open World".. More like a "Large Arena".. (Ok, maybe a bad example but I think you get what I mean.)

 

 

Having too small of a world can be detrimental in the terms of having a good mix of "Adventure" "Fighting" and "immersion"... and of course.. Exploration.  While having too large of a map, creates too much time sinks and people don't leave the coast very often, or far from ports. Which also is a bad thing.

 

You need to understand, that while sailing to you may not be fun, it is to alot of other people, and therefore, shouldn't be removed imo. People who want some quick action can sail to a choke point near by like the mouth of the Mediterranean and find some fun.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Like many have pointed out, with the natural choke points. There can be action for everyone, or more easy going if you desire by using or avoiding those choke points.

 

However to answer your question. It's not fun for everyone. But again, if you don't want to spend more than 5 minutes sailing, why are you playing a sailing game? Despite the game being called "Naval Action" It doesn't mean it has to be an "Action Adventure" either. There can still be plenty of Naval Action to go around, and still take some time to get between Point A and point B.

 

So where's the fun? Because of what you might, or might not find along the way.. Take my example above in my OP. That's just 100's of things that could have happened. The enjoyment and excitement is setting out for a port not knowing what awaits you on the open water. If that's not your thing, then I have to ask again why you're playing this game. :huh:

 

It's already been stated to be an Open World.. I'd find it a crying shame that the world is so small it's scarcely could be called "Open World".. More like a "Large Arena".. (Ok, maybe a bad example but I think you get what I mean.)

 

 

Having too small of a world can be detrimental in the terms of having a good mix of "Adventure" "Fighting" and "immersion"... and of course.. Exploration.  While having too large of a map, creates too much time sinks and people don't leave the coast very often, or far from ports. Which also is a bad thing.

 

You need to understand, that while sailing to you may not be fun, it is to alot of other people, and therefore, shouldn't be removed imo. People who want some quick action can sail to a choke point near by like the mouth of the Mediterranean and find some fun.

I was merely curious to see what fun would you find in long distance sailing (up to 3h from tip of England to western France as in your OP) but suddenly I am someone who doesn't like sailing more than 5 minutes... I see you like extremes but just skip this, it's not needed really.

Now if I knew that every voyage is as risky and full of possibilities as that romantic gank you described then I would be all for it but if reality would be sailing for hours to cover a distance on empty sea with nothing happening 9 out of 10 times then yes, that's certainly not my thing. You should know this feeling since you played vco. When the only ''surprise'' on your way from West indies to East indies was randomly generated storm that you could easilly avoid then things get tedious quite fast which promoted alt tabbing and afk sailing.

We will get to test the distances and open sea travel speeds soon when the prototype launches and then it will be seen if they manage to ''fill'' the sea with potential possibilities for happenings and I don't mind spending my time on chokepoints while you can have your long hauls.

Why I play this game? Because it's amazingly fun so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was merely curious to see what fun would you find in long distance sailing (up to 3h from tip of England to western France as in your OP) but suddenly I am someone who doesn't like sailing more than 5 minutes... I see you like extremes but just skip this, it's not needed really.

Now if I knew that every voyage is as risky and full of possibilities as that romantic gank you described then I would be all for it but if reality would be sailing for hours to cover a distance on empty sea with nothing happening 9 out of 10 times then yes, that's certainly not my thing. You should know this feeling since you played vco. When the only ''surprise'' on your way from West indies to East indies was randomly generated storm that you could easilly avoid then things get tedious quite fast which promoted alt tabbing and afk sailing.

We will get to test the distances and open sea travel speeds soon when the prototype launches and then it will be seen if they manage to ''fill'' the sea with potential possibilities for happenings and I don't mind spending my time on chokepoints while you can have your long hauls.

Why I play this game? Because it's amazingly fun so far.

 

Sorry I have a bad habit of making it sound as though I'm speaking to you directly. my "Makes me wonder why you are playing this game" was more of a rhetorical question. I believe you're here for much the same reason I am. I do speak in extremes to make points, my point was "If you're going to not want to take more than 5 minutes sailing why are you playing" wasn't directed at you saying that's what you want. Again sorry for my mis understanding. I tend to have that tendency to make it sound like I'm pointing fingers.

 

I completely agree, the sailing shouldn't be tedious, at least not always. It shouldn't be so packed full though that every time you leave port its a fight to the death to your destination, but at the same time, it shouldn't be like VCO where sailing half way across the world the only thing you need to ever worry about is a tedious storm you can easily avoid.

 

Which is why again, I can't stress enough that it's imperative to find that perfect middle ground, that will give a nice refreshing sense of voyage, exploration and excitement, with the right touch of a possibility of getting into trouble, but at the same time, having the option, chance, etc. to avoid main sailing lanes, and or just not seeing many people once in awhile depending on your destination and route.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

     Another aspect of all this that the devs should be taking into account is MONEY. I would think that in spite of their love of the age of sail they should be thinking of making this venture at least pay for itself.  They will need to think about how many people would be willing to pay to sail a digital ship somewhere for several hours, or in the case of sailing from the Old World to the New World several months.....Just sailing along enjoying the waves and the creak of the rigging and watching the occasional albatross wing by.  My bet would be that there would not be enough to make a very much of a profit, even if you went to a subscription I don't think there would be enough to keep the lights on.  They will need to attract enough players that will pay and stay.  To do that they will have to have more naval action and less naval sailing because the vast majority of potential customers will not want to sit at their computers and watch the waves roll by.   

    There absolutely needs to be some form of Time Compression.  That could be done in several different ways, from a simple "Do you wish to sail to Barbados?....Click....You are there",  to an actual sliding scale such as speeding time up by X amount.  I remember an old U-boat game where you could hit the plus or minus key to speed up or slow down time. You could speed time up by as much as 8K if I remember and the trip across the Atlantic would take 5 minutes. You could activate the time compression anywhere but you had to be careful. If you spotted a ship the time compression would not stop, you had to hit the Real Time button quick. You could go from being fast to being sunk very quickly.  Another version of time compression could have you drop out of compression if some event happened, you see another ship, a storm blows up, etc.

   Anyway that's my 2 cents, for what it is worth.  I think that in order to attract enough customers to make this a profitable venture you will not be able to do long distance real time sailing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They should do it like EVE-Online does. Have 'gates' that link maps/regions together once u sail into a gate u get teleported to the next zone. So the world map is divided into these smaller sea regions and Islands etc.

 

Once you are 'aggro-ed' (in combat) u cant leave the region.

 

Like this:

k7mGDTs.png

 

The red zones are the connectors to other maps. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They should do it like EVE-Online does. Have 'gates' that link maps/regions together once u sail into a gate u get teleported to the next zone. So the world map is divided into these smaller sea regions and Islands etc.

 

Once you are 'aggro-ed' (in combat) u cant leave the region.

 

Like this:

k7mGDTs.png

 

The red zones are the connectors to other maps. :)

 

I'd probably stop playing if it was like that.. Mainly because that is not an Open world, and that is what I bought the game for.

 

It also breaks immersion on so many levels, and creates "arena's", kills exploration knowing you're in a little box with multiple doors, and.. well I could go on... I think this setup would seriously hamper the game in so many ways.

 

It works for EVE, because EVE is a sand-box but not an open world. there is a difference. It also makes sense for EVE, and is still 100% immersive, because you need those gates to travel thousands of light years in a second.

 

It just makes absolutely no sense for this game in anyway shape or form

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd probably stop playing if it was like that.. Mainly because that is not an Open world, and that is what I bought the game for.

 

It also breaks immersion on so many levels, and creates "arena's", kills exploration knowing you're in a little box with multiple doors, and.. well I could go on... I think this setup would seriously hamper the game in so many ways.

 

It works for EVE, because EVE is a sand-box but not an open world. there is a difference. It also makes sense for EVE, and is still 100% immersive, because you need those gates to travel thousands of light years in a second.

 

It just makes absolutely no sense for this game in anyway shape or form

 

 

I understand your point.

 

But for most people sailing around for 3 months without seeing another ship is kinda much. And how does time compression work in multiplayer?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand your point.

 

But for most people sailing around for 3 months without seeing another ship is kinda much. And how does time compression work in multiplayer?

devs didnt worked much on open world they said we will suffer together in testing out mechanics 

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/504-open-world-global-map-and-related-topics/

dont start the same discussions over and over again and stick to the existing topics

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

devs didnt worked much on open world they said we will suffer together in testing out mechanics 

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/504-open-world-global-map-and-related-topics/

dont start the same discussions over and over again and stick to the existing topics

 

I didn't start the topic :mellow: Just replied with my idea.

 

Will take a look into that subsection.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Firstly, I wish my English was as good as Lady Athena's

Secondly, I think its safe to say the Dev's already have an idea on how Open World will play out, we are here to test it and offer suggestions on how to balance it.

 

 

I'm rather curious to see the Dev's pure, very own, personal vision of this game's Open World. Once I've experienced that, I'll be able to judge what I like and what I like less about it, but I'll try to give their vision priority over my own until then (unless being asked for input/ideas on certain aspects). It is their "spiritual and technical work" after all and they have to "live with it" while I still have the option of saying "It's not my cup of tea, I'll pass".

 

(However I'm fairly certain the devs will bring something to life that will be enjoyable not only for me, but also my fellow player colleagues)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure how helpful most people are being when their ideas can be divided roughly into two camps.

 

Group A, who aren't really listening to other people and can only answer open design questions with "well, Eve did it this way."

Group B who aren't really listening to other people but KNOW they don't like anything to do with Eve, whether they understand the aspect of the game in question or not.

 

As for OPs novel-length suggestion (which deserves a detailed answer I am neither qualified nor inclined to try and give), that's always the dream, but so is space colonization and we don't seem to have any hope of achieving that any time soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not entirely sure if this was said already but here I go,

 

Basically the concept I'm thinking of is essentially a best of both worlds sort of thing. No separate over world, no months of traveling across oceans no regional maps or gates. It would be an open world yes but not true and certainly not 1 to 1. It would have the realism of Silent Hunter but compressed just enough to accommodate the average player. I don't know myself the detail I'll leave that up to the devs imagination. But certainly enough where sailing across the Atlantic won't take months but not enough for it to take only 2 hours. That's what they had colonies in Bermuda and such for, stop overs for long journeys among other things. Of course there should be the ability to save and exit mid-journey and when you log on again your in the place you left yourself. Or maybe even it would be maybe a handover thing and you could leave the navigating and such to your 1st officer or something like that and you could log on in the morning or whatever and you would be there. But I'm just spit balling here feel free to expand upon idea because, I admit, it's pretty basic. But in my opinion an over world, or gates separating regions would absolutely wreck the game concept. And frankly I would be out the door on this game faster than you could say "But Captain!" if the devs did that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Gates between zones"?. Really?.

 

Get ready for ganks camping in the entry zones of transited areas and massive griefing. No offence intended, but I've heard some crazy ideas about open world yet that one takes the cake by a wide margin.

 

I'll try to sum it up as softly and diplomatically as I can:

 

NO

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im just going to point out that no matter what you or i want is not what the games going to be, The Eve gate system has problems, many many problems that would kill all enjoyment in this game theres 3 reasons why 1: Gate camping 2: easy defendable points and finally 3: Open ocean everyone has to congregate to one area to transfer into another sea, immerson is dead and BOOM no more realistic crowd.

 

And im on the side of high travel times, i might only have 5-6 hours a day to play or maybe 2 somedays and i will change my activitys accordingly to fit the time frame i have available, if you dont like that you can sail across the pacific in 2 hours flat well think of it from a none time perspective, if the sea is only 40 minutes port to port that means limited area to move through which means the likelyhood of meeting enemys is on average 50%, which in the long run makes greifing, ship destruction more common and merchants dont even have the advantage of a big sea to avoid traffic.

 

I want a open world i dont want a shamefull 2 hour world fro me to explore i want bubbles of influence clans can capture to be MASSIVE difficult to defend and AFFECT the world. 

Casual players have no place in a truly IMMERSIVE, REALISTIC simulator game, you do not have the time to master, play, and appreciate the scope of what it can be.

 

That is due to your limited time to play thats not your fault but look at games today, Mechwarrior, WOT, Warthunder (except for sim mode), and other big name simulator games there just arcade games no skill involved its all who has the biggest gun and limits you to tiny battlegrounds.

 

Naval action in my mind has the potential to break the mold and be a gem in the game market like in Eve, all the casual players stay in high secuirty space and do there business and 90% of the time never go to low sec and they enjoy that, But the truly hardcore go into 0.0 and claim territory, play with markets, and experiance EVE to its fullest,

 

That is what naval action should try and emulate, the casuals can have there own playground (staying in the coast, maybe ventureing over the sea on a day off), and the hardcore players  have there playground allowing the poeple who make time for this game who TRULY enjoy this game in its every detail have the ability to sail for hours, find new lands, and never see a casual player so every ship seen is a danger, there going to be skilled and now to to manual sail, to double broadside, and to run or fight. 

 

This will separate the community into the hardcore and the casual as most games do anyways, but i as this comment is getting very long ill leave on one point.

 

CASUAL PLAYERS ARE NEEDED IN GAMES AND APPRECIATED BUT CATERING TO THE CASUAL CROWD IN A SIMULATOR GAME ALIENATES THE HARDCORE AUDIENCE, THIS WILL IN TURN NOT GIVE A PERSISTANT ECONOMY GLOBAL MAP AND ALSO THE WORST PART, Makeing poeple who have time to spend on the game not want to spend it since in 2 hours i can do everything i want to do so why should i spend more time? i get nothing better or rewarding i just get to do the same thing Over, and over and over and over in 2 hour interverls.

 

All in all this game needs adventure, intrigue, danger, and mystery. and in a 2 hour world map it would become MEH too quickly.

 

But thats my opinion and all in all its only just a opinion.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First  post and a new player so hello and what a beautiful game you have here thank you Devs. On to the post I used to play eve online for many years back before the summer of rage, so I am posting on the back of that although I know very little about this game I can easily see why the Eve Online Model is being examined.

 

There are some significant problems with the eve model in terms of Travel time such that any lengthy time traveling  through empire space is pretty much done AFK particularly with the cargo ships. This will often lead to opportunistic encounters when a player is relieved of his ships trade goods and everything else not on skill but on the mere fact that the game has an unreasonable expectation from its player base. CCP knows this and has done a bunch of things to try and ease this responsibility, as well as try to remove the AFK aspect warp to 0 of gate option, being one such thing where autopilot used to warp you to 15km I am not sure if this is still the case it’s been a long time since I played the game.   

 

Still certain things from eve could be included to give a feel for size and indeed adventure, it would be good to have some sort of old world sea charts option available, the idea is that you would have to pull out of port and get to set distance from the port before this option is enabled enabling the old time honoured tradition of Blockades, of course blockades gives the encumbered player opportunity (time) to get some of his friends involved. Once the map is up you should be able to plot courses, based on the limitations of the charts, when it comes to your destination port it would be cool if you could drill into a large area around the port (Perhaps up to an Hours sailing away) where you could autopilot your ship (queue loading screen) The map could be engineered to provide rumours such as Local pirate activity reports, local wars, this could be fed into some marketing / Trading system.

 

This I think would help to negate  the mindless traveling for some give people enough tactical options to be able to  engineer a safe entry to port but with an adventurers sense of risk. The port areas can be geared up for things like moving sandbanks, local wrecks rocks etc that would provide some advantages to those that know the, area well. Ultimately this is a broad  stroke idea and some of this would certainly be a nice to have.

 

Regards

Capt Morgan                    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From reading this there seems to be two camps forming, those in favour of a realistically large world and those who want the ability to get things done quickly in a reasonably short time frame. I think we need to be wary of false dichotomys - there is a precedence set already for games with a realistically large and sprawling world that still allows you to achieve something within, say, a two hour time frame: I refer of course to the glorious Euro Truck Simulator 2. I'm aware it's not the same kind of game at all, but there is room here to accomodate both groups of people, which hopefully the open world speed testing will show.

 

Furthermore I would be happy with a "travel mode" if the world is going to be large, a la Assassin's Creed 4 - the camera zooms out, ambient music begins, and the ship gains a speed boost. Not necessarily as realistic but would be a marvellous experience, to be able to pan your camera around and take in the view from a great distance. This ability can of course be disabled in combat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im just going to point out that no matter what you or i want is not what the games going to be, The Eve gate system has problems, many many problems that would kill all enjoyment in this game theres 3 reasons why 1: Gate camping 2: easy defendable points and finally 3: Open ocean everyone has to congregate to one area to transfer into another sea, immerson is dead and BOOM no more realistic crowd.

 

And im on the side of high travel times, i might only have 5-6 hours a day to play or maybe 2 somedays and i will change my activitys accordingly to fit the time frame i have available, if you dont like that you can sail across the pacific in 2 hours flat well think of it from a none time perspective, if the sea is only 40 minutes port to port that means limited area to move through which means the likelyhood of meeting enemys is on average 50%, which in the long run makes greifing, ship destruction more common and merchants dont even have the advantage of a big sea to avoid traffic.

 

I want a open world i dont want a shamefull 2 hour world fro me to explore i want bubbles of influence clans can capture to be MASSIVE difficult to defend and AFFECT the world. 

Casual players have no place in a truly IMMERSIVE, REALISTIC simulator game, you do not have the time to master, play, and appreciate the scope of what it can be.

 

That is due to your limited time to play thats not your fault but look at games today, Mechwarrior, WOT, Warthunder (except for sim mode), and other big name simulator games there just arcade games no skill involved its all who has the biggest gun and limits you to tiny battlegrounds.

 

Naval action in my mind has the potential to break the mold and be a gem in the game market like in Eve, all the casual players stay in high secuirty space and do there business and 90% of the time never go to low sec and they enjoy that, But the truly hardcore go into 0.0 and claim territory, play with markets, and experiance EVE to its fullest,

 

That is what naval action should try and emulate, the casuals can have there own playground (staying in the coast, maybe ventureing over the sea on a day off), and the hardcore players  have there playground allowing the poeple who make time for this game who TRULY enjoy this game in its every detail have the ability to sail for hours, find new lands, and never see a casual player so every ship seen is a danger, there going to be skilled and now to to manual sail, to double broadside, and to run or fight. 

 

This will separate the community into the hardcore and the casual as most games do anyways, but i as this comment is getting very long ill leave on one point.

 

CASUAL PLAYERS ARE NEEDED IN GAMES AND APPRECIATED BUT CATERING TO THE CASUAL CROWD IN A SIMULATOR GAME ALIENATES THE HARDCORE AUDIENCE, THIS WILL IN TURN NOT GIVE A PERSISTANT ECONOMY GLOBAL MAP AND ALSO THE WORST PART, Makeing poeple who have time to spend on the game not want to spend it since in 2 hours i can do everything i want to do so why should i spend more time? i get nothing better or rewarding i just get to do the same thing Over, and over and over and over in 2 hour interverls.

 

All in all this game needs adventure, intrigue, danger, and mystery. and in a 2 hour world map it would become MEH too quickly.

 

But thats my opinion and all in all its only just a opinion.

 

Just because someone doesn't have a 5-6 hour block of time every day to sit and play the game doesn't mean that they are a "casual player" by your definition of that term. Sure to be good at the game you have to spend time with it, but it does not mean that you have to sit for 2+ hours at a time. I have maybe an hour on a weeknight to sit and play a game, yet I have spent many hours reading forums, watching videos and game guides and tips to play better.

 

 I think you are trying to compare apples and oranges, open world vs. simulator. A hardcore simulator can also be a wargame with short battle times.  First, there is no reason one can't play a "Simulator game" in short blocks of time, like WT in sim mode. Second, those games are necessarily sandboxed because it is strictly a wargame involving one battle to conclusion.

 

 IMO there is a large percentage of the game population brought here, like me, by the age of sail naval combat aspect first and open world aspect second. As you can see from this debate there are voices on both sides of the issue and as others have said there is a way to compromise and still have a good game for all types of players that makes $$ for the developers.

 

Lastly, if you are truly interested in real immersion there are tall ship programs around the world that have volunteer programs, then you'll be able to see what it was like in the 18th century to sail across the Atlantic or around the Caribbean. Personally I'd still be doing that if I had the time.  A game will have its limits no matter how "open world" you call it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have always been a deep lover of games having to do with sailing, and the time frame that Naval Action has taken.

 

I've played Voyage Century Online for many many years, and this seems to be taking that step in a very close direction in many ways. (Just minus the ability to get out of your ship into town.). It seems to also be taking an EVE approach as well with it, by being about your ship, not necessarily your persona entirely. Which is alright.

 

However, after playing a little bit of Potbs, Age of Sail, and mostly Voyage Century Online.... There is 1 thing I have been dreaming of, that I believe this game can pull off. A true open world.

 

I'll be talking about Voyage Century since I know that one the best. It really was a good switch. You had the "Map" view, or overhead view of your ship, where time was sped up for everyone and you could sail miles in a second. However if you made contact with an AI, or hostile player you were placed in a tactical view of your ship on the water, whether in a storm, or sunny (Depending on the weather on the map/overhead view), with your enemy x miles away in the same direction and heading as your own ship on that map/overhead view.. This worked wonders for the time, and I did love it. (Honestly if the devs move to this same style I won't be entirely bummed out)

 

However.....

 

This is now 2015.. and that system has been done 1000x over. I believe it's time for a company to push the envelope and raise the bar.

 

I've heard all the excuses and worries and legit fears.. It's hard, it's never been done before on this scale, or in this way. It could fail, or we could screw up.. I know.. you could, and it could. However.. where would we be if Bill Gates said the same about the first computer? Or if game companies trying new things in games said the same and never pushed that bar? (which they rarely do these days, which is why most games are the same old same old).

 

A few years ago, without any schooling in the ways of game design or programming, and no real experience or knowledge of it, I joined an Indie team because of this. I was, and am tired of seeing companies scared to push the boundaries of games. (Now this isn't a slam on you guys at all, what you're doing is fantastic). No, this is merely a push, and urge. A support and request from a long time gamer, and indie developer. Don't be afraid to be different, and push the challenge.

 

Don't be afraid to say "so what?" if some people don't entirely like it completely, or aren't entirely liking some aspects of the game. You'll never please everyone.. ever.. you'll never have the masses on your side, not if you truly want to make an epic game of the ages. (No game that has stood the test of time and proven itself as an epic game of the ages has truly been a mass hysteria frenzy). So many games.. So many failed companies, and far too many disappointed players, backers, and supporters of games have seen games die because the developers turned to caring more about getting as many players as they could playing, and favoring as many players as they could,  instead of simply making a solid, epic game. 90% of those games or more, fail within the first year, because the game tries to go to many directions at once..

 

To make a great game, you need a focus, and you need to stay on that focus, regardless of what some people may say, cry, or whine about. (Of course this needs to be taken into account, as ignoring players will straight up make your game fail as well).. The point I'm making is.. Do not forget what your game was supposed to be at the start.. Do not forget about the soul..

 

So where am I getting too with this?

 

It's 2015... I believe it's time for a new bar to be set. A true open world. One where, sailing from the tip of England, to the Western coast of France may.. take several hours.. maybe even 3+. Why not?

 

Far to often I see gamers complain they can't have everything handed to them. "I only have 2 hours to play, I should be able to get the best of everything too!" .. Why? Why can't you just play and enjoy the game? I remember being a kid in school, having only a few hours a day to play as well. The last thing I cared about was getting everything in the game.. It was too enjoy it.. In-fact.. I'd need to spend.. well.. additional time to get everything.. I had to focus on it..

 

" I don't want to sail for 3+ hours, I just wanna jump in and fight" Maybe the game isn't for you?

 

I'll stop there as that alone is something most people suddenly gasp and say "Oh no! that's not a good attitude!" But isn't it? As I said already, you can't please everyone.. Nor should you try too. As a great proverb says.. "The hunter who chases 2 rabbits, loses them both". You cannot please both the player that want's a realistic, immersive atmosphere and game-play, and a player who just wants to get as much bang for his buck in 2 hours.. you can't do it, nor will you in a game that Naval Action wishes to be, and attempting too will quickly push both of them out, while you have those in between who don't really care, being the only ones who stay.. and that's terrible for a game.. I've seen far far too many games with amazing possibilities and promises destroyed because of that.

 

You need to choose... What is Naval Action going to be? and stick to those guns.. I myself fear for this, as  you may choose it to be something I do not like myself.. But, that's the risk I need to take, as this isn't my game, but yours, but I do believe whole heartedly through many experiences myself as a gamer, seeing so many games fail or fall that these words cannot be more true.

 

So again, it's 2015.... May-hap I give you an example of what your game could be? With a true Open world you bring the possibility of both an extremely realistic and immersive world that players can get sucked into.. One.. that has never truly been seen before... One that could.. push the envelope and make other companies go "wow".

 

A possibility: What's wrong with creating an Open World.. A true Open world... Where opening the map shows water territories (similar to the EVE style you mentioned earlier), where as you set sail off the port of a town in Northern England you set sights for Denmark, or rather, where you believe Denmark is.. For the map isn't created yet.. You haven't explored that area. (or bought a map for that area). .. This should be a wondrous adventure you think, buying ink for your map. As you set sail you watch as the map slowly fills in, (your cartographer filling the map in as you go automatically). Plotting your course, and testing the wind, sails set to full.

 

Looking to your right, you watch as your 4 other guild mates put their sails to full to assist you on your adventure. You heard from another person just an hour ago at port that a town in Denmark was in dire need of Fruit and Grain. The prices being a steal. He was able to give you the rough coordinates, but that's all. After all you have no map for that area, as you already know, so you make sure you're set in the right direction with your compass as a final check. Everything's swell. The morning sun is rising, and you listen to the creek of your ship as you sail across the smooth sea's.

 

30 minutes later after a peaceful cruise, scanning the horizon, you notice darker clouds. A storm you think.. this could easily be a problem and slow you down.. 15 minutes later.. you were right... The waves pick up and your speed drops.. The ship begins to be hammered, though the storm could be worse.. The sky has turned hazy and rainy, and peering through your scope, you cannot see far at all... Your guild mates have raise a few sails, and you do as well. The Guild mate relays that you are very near the western coast of Denmark, shouldn't be more than 10 minutes.. Wonderful you think, it's about time to get out of this storm.

 

5 Minutes later... Things go from bad to worse.. Your second Guild mate has spotted several ships from your North, coming in at an interception course. They are waving the flag of Sweden, a nation England is currently at odds with, and who you, have sided with (Sided with England of course).. Hoping they havn't spotted you in the bad weather and are not using their scope is your only hope.. But they do..

 

Watching as their ships grow bigger in your sights, your guild mates form a diamond around your ship carrying the goods. The odds are slightly in your favor with the winds at your back and the waves riding with you, though it's still very choppy and wild. Your shots won't be easy to hit, your ship extra slow from the weight of goods, and rough sea's will ensure the enemy will be able to catch up eventually.

 

Not 3 minutes out from the coast of Denmark, you are now within firing range. A battle ensues, and your guild mates tell you to keep going straight, they will head off the attackers the best they can, and they do. As they turn, to engage, one of them calls "It's been a pleasure sailing with you today. Godspeed", as they turn to engage the enemy ships. They do... all except 1. A Galleon larger than your own ship, but slowly gaining. He's ignored your guild mates, and has his sights solely on you. Your own Guild mates being tied up with the others, unable to assist. Your only option being to turn left and right, still moving in the direction of Denmark and hopefully, safety, while attempting to knock out a mast. You load Balls on one side, chain on the other.. Pass 1, and you barely dent, his forward cannons slamming into your rear, as you turn again to get another shot, the waves proving your worst enemy as the shots of your chain go low and meet the water well before the Galleon.. Your ship dips down, your rear cannons getting extra height than usual and unusually long distance, takes the advantage.. The chain rips through the Galleons sails.. Not much.. but it's better.... Buys you a few more precious seconds before he's close enough to really engage you completely and ensure you don't get away. 

 

3rd volley as you turn yet again, your cannon balls slamming into his deck and sails, and.. luck... You watch as the Galleon dips down between the waves, the center mast tipping oddly before slamming into the water.. You scarce believe it, before straightening out and going as fast as you can to the coast. The Galleon taking 2 more helpless shots towards your ship with its frontal cannons before it slowly slips farther and farther behind. The sails ripped and battle-worn as you watch it break contact, turning to assist his comrades against your own, knowing you are a lost cause.

 

Docking in port, and exchanging the goods, you make a fair bit of gold. Enough to fix the damage, and obtain more cannon balls and shot. Your crew thankfully un hurt, and not needing to be replaced. As you're searching the Merchant at port, you notice 2 ships limping into port.. 2 of your guild mates made it.. Though both heavily damaged. One sitting so low in the water you wonder how he ever managed to keep it afloat in those waves. "Devils luck" you think, before buying extra planks from your own pocket to give to your guild mates for repairs, and of course, their usual payment as well. Remembering of course to hold some extra on the side for the ones who didn't make the whole journey.

I love this vision truly,the storms,battle,econ,everything.The only one thing I do not like(feel free to shoot)is the timing

Anyone of you hear ever played Pirates of the Carribean Online?An ancient game that died two years back.The combat was shit and there was no such thing as econ in that game,Its jus a big story

HOWEVER,the only one thing I loved about it was its open world sailing.There is no such thing as a tactical map or strategic map or wadeva bs.You sailed your ship and whatever you saw,you have a chance to shoot at it straight off the bat and have a battle right there and then without you being loaded onto a battlelike sea arena with boundaries,as literally the whole map is your boundary.Firstly this is historicaly accurate as chases of ships of enemy nations take place over a large distance(the whole sea) not a tiny map(Master and Commander anyone?)

Secondly,you are travelling on an open sea,where other people can see you and engage immediately if they want to rescue you or sink you or sink your enemy(etc etc)

For the time predicament,follow POTCO.They took the actual map and did a scale drawing.They lowered the time to travel by shortening distances to ports.Lets just say u are travelling at 12.5 knots(using the lynxs speed with the wind diagonal ish) you take 10-20 min to travel from Port Royal to lets say,Santa Domingo.That would be following POTBS(which I played alot since Sony was still running the show,where they increased the speed of ships to 60 knots to cover actual distances) but instead of actual distances its shortened distances with actual ship speeds and instead of separate action instances in a separate map,its all happening on one big map.To solve the problem of a port battle 32 vs 32 or more where players are purely congregated for a battle(potbs term),let there be a separate instance in a separate map(only case) like a Trafalgar map.Unless of course the map has been balanced and fps is stable enough for the open world to suppprt it.Then that would be truly fun.Rum and weapon runners will be running for port and trying not to get shot as the big boys shoot each other to kingdom come.

So main note:shortened map distances with actual ship speeds.The battle arena for everyone is the whole world,no separate instances

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The battle arena for everyone is the whole world,no separate instances

The Whole World...

 

Choke points make areas for battle...

 

For those like me who wish to explore, and NOT to have to fight every voyage, an Open World should be that...

 

I should NOT have to fight every time only those I chose.

 

We will have to wait and see what the Dev's have planed, and I for one await in anticipation.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If this game is only battle and everything else is secondary, there just following the cookie cutter model of all MMO's, gear up pvp endgame or in this case grind up to ship and equipment pvp. some poeple like that i for one dont, i want PVP, exploration, merching, Influence, AI SuperPowers, and the ability to own sections of coast and sea persistant and mean something except bragging rights. THAT is a game not a instance based simulatoir battle game.

 

Open world is much more than a none battle arena map, its a concept of true freedom from the endless gear grind, Tier grind, and money grind, it awards players of all diffrent play styles, it makes you wonder what will i do today? not will be faceing 20 1st rates god so unbalanced.

 

The thing is we as a commuinity have to understand that open world isnt just a lable and a open map, its a complex machine that has many cogs that can make it great, or one big cog that will make it fail. Game Labs i hope you see this comment, because i truly beleive with your passion and work ethic you can give us a battle game of the naval era with all the individual cogs included to make this game a true and persistant open world.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love this vision truly,the storms,battle,econ,everything.The only one thing I do not like(feel free to shoot)is the timing

Anyone of you hear ever played Pirates of the Carribean Online?An ancient game that died two years back.The combat was shit and there was no such thing as econ in that game,Its jus a big story

HOWEVER,the only one thing I loved about it was its open world sailing.There is no such thing as a tactical map or strategic map or wadeva bs.You sailed your ship and whatever you saw,you have a chance to shoot at it straight off the bat and have a battle right there and then without you being loaded onto a battlelike sea arena with boundaries,as literally the whole map is your boundary.Firstly this is historicaly accurate as chases of ships of enemy nations take place over a large distance(the whole sea) not a tiny map(Master and Commander anyone?)

So main note:shortened map distances with actual ship speeds.The battle arena for everyone is the whole world,no separate instances

First of all the size of the POTCO map was tiny. Second of all Servers had tiny player limits making the world you think was so open into an instance, one upon many. Its all a trick of the mind and game scale. It felt open because the map was so small that they could do it that way.

 

Second having a massive seamless world of a scale large enough to be worthy of the name open world would be a massive technical achievement let alone when it is populated fully. What are some of the biggest instances and worlds we have? Arma 3? Arma 2? Even those are tiny considering it is an island and this game wants and needs oceans.

 

We may not like instances but they are needed. Maybe in 2100 we wont need them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What are some of the biggest instances and worlds we have? Arma 3? Arma 2? Even those are tiny considering it is an island and this game wants and needs oceans.

 

Starmade, Space engineers, Minecraft, to an extent elite dangerous. even WoW was pretty big and seamless.

What most seamless MMOs does, is to divide the map into a grid, where each grid is handled seperately by the server.

Not to mention the detail of the map doesnt need to be as detailed as those games, making file size a nonissue, similar to space games.

It is possible, it's just going to take alot of work

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Starmade, Space engineers, Minecraft, to an extent elite dangerous. even WoW was pretty big and seamless.

What most seamless MMOs does, is to divide the map into a grid, where each grid is handled seperately by the server.

Not to mention the detail of the map doesnt need to be as detailed as those games, making file size a nonissue, similar to space games.

It is possible, it's just going to take alot of work

 

WoW uses shards, basically mini-servers and is hardly seamless when you consider all the PvE instances and gated zones allowing for easy transfer. But basically another form of instancing meant to give the appearance of seamless, but you can see the pop-in, the load changes, the loading screens every 5 mins. Minecraft is loaded as you go, generated as you go, and a terribly laggy mess on multiplayer on any map bigger than a small city. Space Engineers.. well.. it's got a long way to go but again, random generation allows for that and the game only keeps the chunks loaded that people are in, its like Minecraft in that way and terribly laggy when there are multiple people in different areas with a lot of stuff.

 

Even Star Citizen, a massively funded peice of work will be instanced - with 71 million in crowd funding plus god knows how much in angel investors and other sources.

 

Check out this post by the creator, it really explains the issues with it, and how its a data battle in the end, one which you won't win.. that's why games have such small player limits on seemingly massive worlds a la Minecraft.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/12770-Chris-Roberts-On-Multiplayer-Single-Player-And-Instancing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...