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DreadPirateBob

Russia captures Roseau: the devs have to act aggressively to deal with the population balance

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Your game 'work' to game fun balance is out of whack. It's simply too much 'work' to play the game and the main reason why the population is slowing dipping. Port battles are still 25 v 25, the amount of effort to equip 25 players is ridiculous, even if you can find those 25 players.

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1 hour ago, Hethwill said:

Question remains.

We all have full docks of ships. For what purpose ? What service do they serve except being there, rotting ?

Aren't they supposed to sail against enemies ?

1eda4b8a45b8e584209fc420629e3fee.jpg

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On 9/3/2019 at 9:35 AM, admin said:

Russian aggression too high was already discussed in the early 2018

 

In terms of population imbalance. 

The only way to control overpopulation by natural means is to remove unlimited resources out of the air and go all in on the forest spawns (increasing their number). 
As a result

  • Nations with limited numbers will have all types of woods and resources cheap. Everyone will have best ships
  • Nations with lots of players will not have all resources - and will have to overpay and haul more (or build secondary bases for production - spreading their investments thin)

Lets say 1000 of oak per nation per day (or week) and thats it. No more oak for nation. This will solve all overpopulation issues. 

And no going back on that - eventually players will get used to it and accept it as a given. More people = less GDP ;)

(PVE server wont have this problem as oak will be also available from admiralty)

 

WOW style - queues wont work, pop caps wont work as player who bought the game wants to play for the flag of his choice.
Maybe additional cost should be introduced for nation switch, like 10 mln reals + 25000 doubloons, as some people report that in the long term - nation change item is too cheap compared to other games (wow makes you pay EUR for every switch), as it is causing long term imbalance and reduces value of nation choice and permanence. Causing more imbalance

I would prefer to see something like MWO does with merc units.  If you join a high pop nation you get -20 credits/xp while working for that nation.  If your join a low pop nation you can tget up to 30% bonus xp/credits per battle.   You can do something like that for forge papers and nations. If it's the top nation (go off port owener ships and not just pop, but several things should be usded) than you gain less xp/credit per battle than say the lowest.  We can use Russian and Poland.  Russian players level up slower cause they are high pop nation, while Poland players get a boost to xp/credits cause it's a low pop  nation.   The other thing is I would honestly lock out the top nation from forge papers....new players is one thing but shouldn't allow for zerg switch to nations or like POTBS allowed you to only do this for a set time after a map reset.   

88DyX6h.jpg

On 9/3/2019 at 9:56 AM, Teutonic said:

Quote "JUST. DO. IT"

For the alliance coalitions that you wanted to do.

 

it effective lowers nation count to 5(6 with pirates) and suddenly everyone can stay in their nation, but have multiple people to play with for RvR. If folks hate the fact that they can't "sink" scrubs in nations that suddenly they are friendly with then they can just go to a different coalition. multiple groups have done it already anyway.

 

I'm all for a Faction that makes it only 5-6 factions and we have nations in each faction.  This allows Devs to add new nations if they want in the future and control factions cause if one gets to powerfull they can split them up for a while.  Say we have a Spain, French, US zerg power house that no one can defeat.  At a set time they change that faction and have them split up or maybe have US join with GB or Spain just goes independent (they are the true alliance power house) than a few months down the road the faction joins back as one again.   It will spice things up and allow the devs to balance the game on their terms which is better than when players try it and we get the problems we had on  EU and Global of the two blocks.  West vs East or the US/GB/DUTCH vs Pirates and all small nations which where hello kittyed cause no one could have alliances with pirates.

14 hours ago, admin said:

nice idea
1,000,000 DB cost to switch to OP nation, 0 to small nation
Its like buying a passport. Some nations will have a free passport (if you sneak in) and some nations will have it very expensive due to strict immigration policy.

Additional idea to naturally control expansions is to have national manpower.
Crew right now comes from air. And i think it should not.

More manpower = more cost and food required to maintain
If your nation has 50% of players only ship you can get (due to lack of free manpower) is the frigate or you have to ask someone to lend you 800 sailors (who each eat 1 ton of provision per game month and needs 1 gold db salary per month).
To provide some protection 100 crew is free for all, but all crew above comes from national manpower

  • if you nation has 10 players and 10000 manpower they can sail 10 first rates
  • If you nation has 500 players - you have bigger manpower - but not 50 bigger. Enough Field 10-20 first rates the rest will have to sail in frigates. Crew becomes a resource like guns (but will be expendable) making large countries vulnerable in case of fast manpower loss.

This will also give incentives for  skilled players to move to smaller nations because large nations will lose more manpower in general due to wide variety of skill levels.

This could become a natural balancing force.

I honestly think forge papers should have a cost in game that is according towards your rank/level.  The lower your rank the less you pay, but don't make it insane where some players can't ever afford it.  I like the 1 million for large and zero for small part, but the others look like to much detail/code to mess with.

12 hours ago, Intrepido said:

We are talking here about RvR.

An alt can play actively in PVP but doesnt come to help in RvR, hurting the nation as it consumes a ressource (crew) that is required for defending the nation.

 

Still, I believe alliances is the way to go. In the past (2016) the british zerg was somehow stopped by the alliance system. Despite the server was divided in 2 blocks, none of them had the hegemony over the other. 

Unlike other systems, diplomacy never had any significant  tweak, it was just completely removed. That was a huge mistake.

I really wanted to see how the Faction system would work as I think it would of been better than the voted alliance system.  Having the Devs pick what nations work with each other.  You don't like that French, Spain, US are in an alliance, than just use your forge paper and move to another nation.  The 5 faction thing also allows them to add new nations later if they want as they just tag that natio to one of the factions.  Factions make up can change every few months if the devs want to keep a balance.

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Yep. That is correct.

Hence forget logic in games :)

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5 hours ago, admin said:

One nation is strong. FOR NOW

This time it's different. 

Port bonuses and investments, expensive 1st rates, large Russian rvr fleet and lowering population changes the standard situation. 

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43 minutes ago, vazco said:

This time it's different. 

Port bonuses and investments, expensive 1st rates, large Russian rvr fleet and lowering population changes the standard situation. 

I dont think admin will ever understand it. 

He didnt get my comparison between the playerbases of Russia and Brits so it is almost pointless to discuss rvr.

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5 hours ago, Wraith said:

Ooooh let's be honest there. The reason you lost a good chunk of the shallows is that BL4CK was either too busy sinking AI on some other part of the map or just plain ignorant on capping circles, with @koltes having too much pride to listen to people who knew what they were doing...  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Bro you still here?

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6 hours ago, admin said:

We do not want to limit first rates.
We want to remove incentives to switch to a strong nation, or remove/reduce incentives to start an account for a certain new nation

The game is skill based and due to nature of life it will always be unbalanced.
The max size has equal numbers with 25 v 25 ships and the weaker side can always be reinforced by additional players.
Strong nations cannot be solved without drastic natural measures 
But even with those drastic measures some nations will be stronger (positive pvp oriented nations) as even if you have 25 v 25 in equal ships this battle can be already unbalanced due to knowledge or training. Even in pure equal games like CS CS endgame rounds can end up with pisols vs automatic rifles.

This is what pvp prospective buyers see  (lets say last week)
49qTTFo.png

Live streams are the qualifiers - they show long journeys, ganking and solo fights 7 pvp kills over 5 hour session - the game as is

  • Lets say there is a guy with the dream to be the Terror of the Seas? Which nation this pvp oriented player might join after checking the twitch?  
  • Lets say there is a guy who wants to play for a strong country which nation this player might join after checking the forum?

Which nation he might join? 

I dont know other players but I buy games because they look cool and fun, not because of streamers (they are players like me, with their own pov) or a forum (with thousands of posts so you will have a hard time reaching a conclusion).

New players will join the nation they have heard most in History classes or sail for their country. 

But this player will soon realize that there are some nations dominating others and then he might want to switch (because people like to win). Here is the issue, as right now the game doesnt provide useful tools for minor nations to hold their ground against a big one. So this player feels the impotence and either switches either quits.

In the old days of 2016, the development of the diplomacy system was the most voted feature by the community. In those early days, the british had to be countered. But small nations on their own could do only little damage to such show of numbers and strenght. 

However when small nations began to work together GB couldnt steamroll anymore. That system brought way more balance to rvr that it was credited for.

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5 hours ago, Farrago said:

TLDR version: The key to putting the brakes on unlimited nation/clan growth is not artificial limits, but add complexity to the game play required to dominate the world. No hardcaps on nations, just make them face the challenges of building an empire.

I'm not concerned about a Zerg. If there's one thing I've learned from my years in this game is that what appears to be status quo eventually changes. And for those of us who play regularly, a few real life weeks may seem like a long time but remembering back, look at the number of powerful clans and/or nations who have either suffered massive setbacks, changed their role or focus, or even disbanded or quit.

Being the most powerful depends on many factors but ultimately the most important is leadership and that leader(s) being joined with the right team at the right time. Throw real life events into the mix: Leaders playing less, real life personalities conflict, the loss of a specific resource or fleet at the wrong time, well... I salute those who can keep it together for long periods of real life time.

Anyway, I'm not in favor of the more artificial options to limit faction size. I'd much rather see more a simulation of the real life challenges that large nation states face. @admin's idea of labor costs is good. The more developed an economy, the higher the labor cost. I'd add that developed ports should have greater import/export needs. "Scarce" resource variations have been tried and found wanting. However if the resources were available somewhere on the map but need to be traded and moved, it would spur OW activity.

no real need to make the game more complex its already a pain in the butt to even get new players situated to the intense rank grind, and ship xp this the constant ganking and slaughters. small clans are already in bad shape if the larger clans dont have them allied. we really do need to tailor the game towards retaining new players rather then retaining the vets, economy will sort itself out over time. it is a player economy after all. yea we have big factions with russia being the more experienced and britian being most new players, zergs will happen u will never see a perfectly balanced player base because that doesnt even exist in reality. like canada will never be as great as russia. no country will have the population of china. its unrealistic to constrain players on what nation their part of. or can be apart of. 

the game needs to be stimulating to new players but also have the complexity and simplicity to keep those players playing. many changes can stimulate this but nothing so drastic as complete changes in how the game operates. this type of feature of labor costs would of been better tested out prior to release rather then implemented without testing.

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Why instead introducing even more complexity / loss, can we not make the game simpler, or atleast RvR more accessable. For example:

- Remove port bonuses

- Remove trade woods (like greenheart logs etc.) from upgrade blueprints, so that everyone can craft them

- Remove permits, so that losing a ship is less punishing

- Remove / adjust the frontline system, so that not always the biggest port has to be captured first

- Reduce maximum BR for port battles

- Remove screening, lower BR in port battles is not going to be much worth, if the enemy is just going to screen you out in 25 first rates. Instead there could be maybe some sort of teleport mechanic, where you create your battlegroup and get instantly teleported into the instance. Would be need some fiddeling with spawns and some other stuff.

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32 minutes ago, Daniboy3000 said:

Why instead introducing even more complexity / loss, can we not make the game simpler, or atleast RvR more accessable. For example:

- Remove port bonuses

- Remove trade woods (like greenheart logs etc.) from upgrade blueprints, so that everyone can craft them

- Remove permits, so that losing a ship is less punishing

- Remove / adjust the frontline system, so that not always the biggest port has to be captured first

- Reduce maximum BR for port battles

- Remove screening, lower BR in port battles is not going to be much worth, if the enemy is just going to screen you out in 25 first rates. Instead there could be maybe some sort of teleport mechanic, where you create your battlegroup and get instantly teleported into the instance. Would be need some fiddeling with spawns and some other stuff.

Except the last point (screen battles can be very fun and can be an effective defense strategy) I would agree with all that removals.

But additional activities should be added too, such as raids, economy, crafting, casual and new players development. Protection of new players by a strong reduction of rewards for casual/new players farming (in real life, attacking a frigate from a  ship of the line was dishonorable, why not creating a reputation system which would penalise gsnkers and newbie farmers?)

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13 hours ago, BuckleUpBones said:

Ah, the exact same reason why we lock our cars at the corner store, we don’t like losing things of worth!

By game design, things hard to obtain are assigned worth.

The polar is “sustainability”, if ships and mods were easy to replace players would deploy.   

 

Fair point.

Except ships are not hard to get. That's why we have full docks. If they were hard to get we wouldn't have full docks within a month of release. ( this is by playing an average of 2 hours a day in a daily basis. )

Seriously, one clan crafter at rank 7 can pump out enough big ships for a small squadron in a daily basis and we all still have time to spare to sail them after we ferry the resources ( which we don't need to do as the WH is already full of whatever the crafter needs to 1--click summon ships that don't need any permits )

Mods are easy to replace as well. Admiralty shop. That's what the Combat Medals are for.

But you present a valid point - how to surmount the feeling of loss even if the ships were for free ? Players will avoid pvp like the plague no matter what for some reason. Trials had no loss and devs even had to implement circle of death to limit running away ( like if running would give them a win... )

PB lower BR releases more ships to screening fleets. So by having more chances of filling a PB we'll have to face greater opposition in the OW.

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7 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Fair point.

Except ships are not hard to get. That's why we have full docks. If they were hard to get we wouldn't have full docks within a month of release. ( this is by playing an average of 2 hours a day in a daily basis. )

Seriously, one clan crafter at rank 7 can pump out enough big ships for a small squadron in a daily basis and we all still have time to spare to sail them after we ferry the resources ( which we don't need to do as the WH is already full of whatever the crafter needs to 1--click summon ships that don't need any permits )

Mods are easy to replace as well. Admiralty shop. That's what the Combat Medals are for.

But you present a valid point - how to surmount the feeling of loss even if the ships were for free ? Players will avoid pvp like the plague no matter what for some reason. Trials had no loss and devs even had to implement circle of death to limit running away ( like if running would give them a win... )

PB lower BR releases more ships to screening fleets. So by having more chances of filling a PB we'll have to face greater opposition in the OW.

We are talking about rvr here.

If you want to fit a ocean using combat medals you would need like 60? Since when upgrades were easy to replace when they are usually far more expensive than most of the ships?

 

Judging by the screenshots, PBs are already being filled with 20-25 players. The issue is having to grind for the first rates to fight for EVERY county capital in the game. Many nations doesnt have 25 players with first rates ready.

You saw this issue in pinar but you are still here, arguing against facts.

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14 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

We are talking about rvr here.

If you want to fit a ocean using combat medals you would need like 60? Since when upgrades were easy to replace when they are usually far more expensive than most of the ships?

 

Judging by the screenshots, PBs are already being filled with 20-25 players. The issue is having to grind for the first rates to fight for EVERY county capital in the game. Many nations doesnt have 25 players with first rates ready.

You saw this issue in pinar but you are still here, arguing against facts.

Fact: you will never get the perfect PB.

You can have 1 ship for PB in every capital. Not today, not now, but you will be able to. Other clans may also do it, if they haven't already. Not all clans work equal.

What is your point exactly ? What do you want really ?

Ease of access to own SOLs will work for you and ten fold for a more powerful navy. As we clearly see, for every SOL a small nation has, a bigger nation has 10, yet here we are again pointing fingers at - is not fair !

 

 

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Sail out with 10 missions. PvP everything you see. CMs mount fast, same as chests with upgrades and loot from enemies.

Most 5th rates and Aggy and Wasa can make up a nice squadron for PvP. 

You can build them with ease. Not that resource intensive and takes just 1 click. Blue is good enough to do OW PvP and unlock slots.

But Intrepido pulls a fair point - RvR PB ships of the line. That's truly a different subject.

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25 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Fact: you will never get the perfect PB.

You can have 1 ship for PB in every capital. Not today, not now, but you will be able to. Other clans may also do it, if they haven't already. Not all clans work equal.

What is your point exactly ? What do you want really ?

Ease of access to own SOLs will work for you and ten fold for a more powerful navy. As we clearly see, for every SOL a small nation has, a bigger nation has 10, yet here we are again pointing fingers at - is not fair !

 

 

It is not only availability to craft and equip a first rate. It is also about how unimmersive is to see 25vs25 first rate battles, the lack of options-tactics in those battles (brawl, brawl and more brawl), the hassle from those players that cant sail their favorite ships....

Edited by Intrepido
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2 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

It is not only availability to craft and equip a first rate, how unimmersive is to see 25vs25 first rate battles, the lack of options-tactics in those battles (brawl, brawl and more brawl), the hassle from those players that cant sail their favorite ships....

The hassle of players that can't even get in a PB because power creep ? absolutely. It is a monster.

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On 9/2/2019 at 1:35 PM, Staunberg said:

Why would anybody pay Russia. Think you missed the point.

This was irony. We are forbidden to get money for ingame items so to get money for portflipping may be the gap between the train and the platform 😉

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6 hours ago, Daniboy3000 said:

Why instead introducing even more complexity / loss, can we not make the game simpler, or atleast RvR more accessable. For example:

- Remove port bonuses

- Remove trade woods (like greenheart logs etc.) from upgrade blueprints, so that everyone can craft them

- Remove permits, so that losing a ship is less punishing

- Remove / adjust the frontline system, so that not always the biggest port has to be captured first

- Reduce maximum BR for port battles

- Remove screening, lower BR in port battles is not going to be much worth, if the enemy is just going to screen you out in 25 first rates. Instead there could be maybe some sort of teleport mechanic, where you create your battlegroup and get instantly teleported into the instance. Would be need some fiddeling with spawns and some other stuff.

there is another game i play thats more strategy but its planets have a set bonus on them when u occupy them the devs could setup  each port with its own builtin port bonuses rather then investments, and having rare wood only accessible at random thru port investment. so using baracoa the nation can invest in this port and have a random roll on a rare wood forest becomin available permenantly for that nation across all currently owned ports. this will cut down on the fight over which clan owns what ports. or having a rare wood forest available in each port that rerolls every day the port isnt captured by a nation from neutral.  this is another idea as well the br should just be removed from ports battles yes limiting ships in a battle is 1 thing  but it just makes factions focus a single ship still, deep water 20k ports have fleets of oceans or firsts . 1.5k ports are fleets of surprises or 5th rates, its less enjoyable.

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9 minutes ago, RubyRose said:

there is another game i play thats more strategy but its planets have a set bonus on them when u occupy them

Stellaris? Endless Space?

if not, please do tell - I love my Sci-Fi strategy

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3 hours ago, Hethwill said:

The hassle of players that can't even get in a PB because power creep ? absolutely. It is a monster.

regarding close range brawls
wind shadows and getting stuck with rigging is under consideration.

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3 minutes ago, admin said:

regarding close range brawls
wind shadows and getting stuck with rigging is under consideration.

:) such considerations are as BIG as land in battles. You guys will be able to pull it no doubt.

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2 minutes ago, admin said:

regarding close range brawls
wind shadows and getting stuck with rigging is under consideration.

Far more critical stuff should be into consideration and fixed asap.

Months have passed and still no small tweaks or improvements.

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19 minutes ago, admin said:

regarding close range brawls
wind shadows and getting stuck with rigging is under consideration.

First time I steal somebody's wind, I'll come out to Kiev and shake your hand!

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22 minutes ago, admin said:

regarding close range brawls
wind shadows and getting stuck with rigging is under consideration.

I like the consideration...

I guess I just think our combat in this game is already near perfection and other parts could use some help. 

but I suppose it all comes with time.

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