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Russia captures Roseau: the devs have to act aggressively to deal with the population balance

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1 minute ago, Intrepido said:

Ports arent really a meassure of real power. The power is on the players.

Which cannot be controlled.  Devs can control the environment (hard caps), not the skill/number of players.

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.

6 minutes ago, admin said:

 Maybe you overestimate the importance of Russia due to MSNBC and CNN? You should watch Felix news more ;)
https://na-map.netlify.com/ I see three large countries. GB looks very strong.

Lol GB has the largest influx of newbies, and only has a few competent players, GB vets mostly change nation in the end, because they get tired of working and taking shit from lots of new players ( "why dont you defend KPR im gettimg ganked for the 6th time today all those big clans suckk buhauhauha" " we already told you multiple times to leave KPR sir" "huauaua you suck you dont help me") who dont really know how the game works but keep shouting like they know it all.

Gb is 1 big uncoordinated mess of noobs with a few struggling vets trying to get it to work.

 

Edited by Razee
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14 minutes ago, admin said:

Men should cry less and go ganking

What is more manly? Showing emotions or bullying the weak?

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37 minutes ago, admin said:

We do not want to limit first rates.
We want to remove incentives to switch to a strong nation, or remove/reduce incentives to start an account for a certain new nation

The game is skill based and due to nature of life it will always be unbalanced.
The max size has equal numbers with 25 v 25 ships and the weaker side can always be reinforced by additional players.
Strong nations cannot be solved without drastic natural measures 
But even with those drastic measures some nations will be stronger (positive pvp oriented nations) as even if you have 25 v 25 in equal ships this battle can be already unbalanced due to knowledge or training. Even in pure equal games like CS CS endgame rounds can end up with pisols vs automatic rifles.

This is what pvp prospective buyers see  (lets say last week)
49qTTFo.png

Live streams are the qualifiers - they show long journeys, ganking and solo fights 7 pvp kills over 5 hour session - the game as is

  • Lets say there is a guy with the dream to be the Terror of the Seas? Which nation this pvp oriented player might join after checking the twitch?  
  • Lets say there is a guy who wants to play for a strong country which nation this player might join after checking the forum?

Which nation he might join? 

Ok, I apologize for going off on 1st rates when that isn't what you had intended.

So lets go to what you talk about - adding incentives for players to join smaller nations. A couple things of the top of my head

1. increase rewards for players in nations that have lower population. 

Example - 2 players sink a frigate (in their own battles, so 2 1v1s), the player in russia that sunk a frigate gets 200 xp, the player in poland that sunk a frigate gets 800 xp due to the relative population of the nations.

2. Lower BR of ports

Reasoning - It allows for more nations the option to defend their ports against the "zerg." This doesn't fix the problem of "attacking" but rather of a small nation with 10-15 guys able to fight in a port battle against a nation with 100 players. They may not win, but they get the chance to defend what they own.

3. in your example of Reverse streaming I will say that yes, prospective buyers see that as the experience they will have in the game, I'm not here to say if it's good or bad - it is up to the person as you said. I can only give my experience from watching US timezone players streaming and  don't think it's much different.

The general trend I hear is that things take too long to do, sailing, battles, economy. I know you have "speed zones" coming and that could help in some aspect, but I suppose we will see.

 

Again, what I am worried about is the poor soul who decides to PvP in numerous amounts of 5th rates suddenly find themselves with no crew because of a mechanic that is trying to "stop" zergs from getting fleets of big ships or... any ships. The issue I see is that the player wouldn't leave the nation, but probably stop playing or do other activities.

I'm all for some change to what we have now, I just urge restraint on this subject when I believe there are other aspects of Naval Action which could use some improvement first.

EDIT: I just remembered, your Force coalition proposal that had a 50/50 split between those that wanted and didn't want it would really honestly be a good first step to plugging an irritating hole for RvR oriented players that continue to play.

Edited by Teutonic
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34 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

It ain't loss

Hahahaha, you know me far too well!

35 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

it is "i don't want pvp right now...."

Ok, but then why is it I've never encountered such behaviour ever in my entire gaming "career"?

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19 minutes ago, admin said:

 Maybe you overestimate the importance of Russia due to MSNBC and CNN? You should watch Felix news more ;)
https://na-map.netlify.com/ I see three large countries. GB looks very strong.

GB is not strong...The only reason that they are in the shallows is because those ports were undefended due to the low pop on the server. Most of the good players are long gone.

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26 minutes ago, admin said:


Men should cry less and go ganking. Some known russian players show what they do on stream - gank them every evening in cheap ships until you learn. Then you can take on any group or clan.

Insert video of Reverse beating 12 players single-handedly here.... 

Skill, yes...  but also gold 5/5, full port bonuses, unlimited cartegenas/art of.../gunnery ency./Northern Masters/Elite etc.....

#balancethefrankenships  #effingmods

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15 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Skill, yes...  but also gold 5/5, full port bonuses, unlimited cartegenas/art of.../gunnery ency./Northern Masters/Elite etc.....

#balancethefrankenships  #effingmods

And he got that by doing what? ? Are you suggesting he got the port bonuses and 5/5 ships by alt farming?

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Game is released but we are still in ea. Thats great

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2 hours ago, Intrepido said:

Make that foreign clans could ally.

 

1 hour ago, vazco said:

You would get tons of support tickets then. People would complain they didn't know it's the case. 

 

Why not limit CM and doubloon acquisition? It's the simplest way to make whole clans switch nations, and that's the goal.

 

You can't use anything based on gold, as it can be abused by alts. 

 

Another option is to limit port bonuses of the most numerous nations. 

I don't think the best option is to limit a nation's rewards just because they're zergs, imho. As much as it sucks facing zergs and as much as zergwagoneers suck, the entire nation doesn't deserve a reward limit; but rather limit how much that reward can buy. Manpower Limiter would do this, but it makes no sense considering they have all the ports of population for manpower.

What if zerg nation's ports would revolt to Neutral if they get too big? Say after 5 days, that a nation with zerg population would have their highest value capital ports revolt. If that nation retakes the port, then it will revolt in 2 days. Tie these ports to Manpower. This would makes a Manpower Limiter seem more sensible.

38 minutes ago, admin said:

We do not want to limit first rates.
We want to remove incentives to switch to a strong nation, or remove/reduce incentives to start an account for a certain new nation

  • Lets say there is a guy with the dream to be the Terror of the Seas? Which nation this pvp oriented player might join after checking the twitch?  
  • Lets say there is a guy who wants to play for a strong country which nation this player might join after checking the forum?

Which nation he might join? 

Yes, I think almost the entire population wants to limit 1st rates (even all ships of the line) for Port Battles....maybe not in OW. But Port Battles need a BR limiter per ship rate, imo.

For 25k BR ports set the max BR for each rate at 3500. This would allow only the following:

  • 3-4 1st rates = 3 L'O, or 3 Santi, or 4 Vics
  • 5-6 2nd rates = 5 Bucs, or 6 St P (highest BR ship to lowest BR ship in this rate)
  • 7-8 3rd rates = 7 Bells, or 8 Wasa (highest BR ship to lowest BR ship in this rate)
  • 8-11 4th rates = 8 Leops, or 11 Ingers (highest BR ship to lowest BR ship in this rate)
  • etc

For 20k BR port set the max BR per rate to only 3000....etc. Perhaps, something like this could be a "Manpower Limiter" for high populated nations. Let low pop nation have maybe 4000 BR per ship rate...giving low pop ships 1 more ship of each rate. This would make a big variety in ships at PBs and would "act" like a Manpower Limiter.

And these hypothetical players you mention should be able to join any nation. But if he decides to join a high populated nation, then he will feel the limiter in Port Battles only and not in OW.

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18 hours ago, jodgi said:

What is more manly? Showing emotions or bullying the weak?

Captain, you WILL abide to the rules, especially number 1, respect. Warning issued for rules breaking.

Edited by Hethwill
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4 minutes ago, admin said:

And he got that by doing what? ? Are you suggesting he got the port bonuses and 5/5 ships by alt farming?

No, i'm suggesting that the gear gap in the game is too wide.  Nothing else.

We have all seen the images of what the top players have for gear and upgrades in their warehouses.  Stacks and stacks of all the best gear.  All obtained fully within the rules and with great skill.

Its certainly not his fault he has it and uses it.  

My point is: Just like PvP, players in RvR will only continue trying is there is a "reasonable chance" at success, it would seem.  It would appear that its easier to A) flip to an easier nation (which is what many do) or (for those with really big egos), b) stop playing (and chime in with the" I told you so"s on the forums)....

 

I love the game.  I really do.  I'm at over 5000 hours now (don't tell the admiral).  And as someone who prefers small ship privateering and has lived out of Freetowns exclusively before, I have little fear of losing all my ports.  

But as we have seen, PLAYERS CANNOT BE COUNTED ON TO BALANCE GAME MECHANICS.  And as we were discussing on the ROVER Discord, this has been a real eye-opener for me, as someone who has never played MMO's previously. 

I don't envy your position, Mr. Admin...  because it would appear that it is IMPOSSIBLE to please every type of player that plays Naval Action.

The ship combat is incredible.  The models and damage have given me, like I said, over 5000 hours of enjoyment and fun.

The problem really is us.  We want more than what you offered.  Probably because we have seen what you are able to do with half the game, the ship combat.  We want an economy, OW and political environment that is as good as that ship combat.

But honestly,  you never promised that.  And I'm not sure we deserve it.  Every good idea that has been attempted for is has been ruined, at least in part, by us, the players.

Resource balance/alliances/OW RoE.....  so many good ideas left in the past because of human nature.

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The game is hardly suffering because it is based on RVR only, and RVR turns to nothing (one way battles, or battles vs IA). 

The other probl is the absence over any other activity than RVR. Patrol zones do not work, most of players refusing to go to there, too ganky and invaded by a single nation. New players remain being sitting ducks in capital areas, while veterans fight around their crafting ports, some players being specialized in farming their pathetic admiralty built 6th rates from their overoptimized Wasas (and game rules encourage this behaviour, don't blame players to do what they are pushed to do), PVE is repetitive, crafting do not exist anymore, trading is limited to these "transport missions" whose first target is to give easy afk targets to gankers.

RVR is dead, because one nation wins the map. Game over. No other nation can recover because of the deadly port bonuses. 

@Hethwill, I don't agree with your analysis. That's a fact that one nation wins. 

Other players must go out. There is no more room for them. RVR is impossible for them. Other activities do not exist anymore. 

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4 minutes ago, Mascarino said:

You are asking that to a russian?

Begone! We don't enjoy even hints of xenophobia around here.

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1 hour ago, jodgi said:

Ok, but then why is it I've never encountered such behaviour ever in my entire gaming "career"?

Me neither. But then i was never into mmo's but more into sims and wargames so yep, there's that.

I'll be crucified in the yard arms but i'll blame the mmo mindset.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Aquillas said:

@Hethwill, I don't agree with your analysis. That's a fact that one nation wins. 

I know.

I'm easy to read. I like hardcore games with asymmetric warfare and purpose built assets.

One "stupid" example comes to mind.

Why play a Waterloo battle over and over and over and over again ? We already know the result, right ?

But then there's that delight of... what if i do something different.

And there we are, playing it again.

Maybe, just maybe, try to attack before the ground is dry ?

Same thing, maybe try to attack your NA enemies clans instead of waiting for some divine intervention.

You already know the result right ? So nothing to lose anyway.

Enter pvp and have fun. That's all there is to a game, any game really.

 

Question remains.

We all have full docks of ships. For what purpose ? What service do they serve except being there, rotting ?

Aren't they supposed to sail against enemies ?

 

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5 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Me neither. But then i was never into mmo's but more into sims and wargames so yep, there's that.

I'll be crucified in the yard arms but i'll blame the mmo mindset.

 

heh, arright, you can go ahead and call it "the mmo mindset".  I'm done teasing... for now.

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10 hours ago, Thonys said:

Balance:

can the admin also get rid of the low cost  medium guns (the drop )?  give newbies 15.000 reals to start to fit the ship .

the gap between longs and carronades - and mediums,   is just to big.

and unnecessary actually . (it's almost free iron and coal)

can something be done about the huge pile of mediums . (the free drop)

Why? Availability of medium cannons allows players to get back out onto the water. If AI is not dropping cannons, players will either be dependent on other players selling them at probably jacked up prices or have to go without cannons.

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34 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Begone! We don't enjoy even hints of xenophobia around here.

 If there was any hint of xenophobia, was against you. I don't like "show emotions" pussies like you.

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7 hours ago, Gilles de Rais said:

KISS is good 😀

Personally i would prefere alliances changing every 3-6 weeks choosed Not by Players but by algorithm with random Elements. 

So for ex. atm algorithm could choose that Rus + Vp are in war with the rest of the nations ... or maybe other combinations. Maybe smallest 3 nations can decide by Poll what Side to join.

Of course war opponents (whole Alliances) should be almost even (max 60:40). 

Between the wars a period of peace may be a good Idea ... 1-2 weeks without rvr will give people and nations a rest and increase the desire to fight.

During peace diplomatic News and rumors can be given in forum or Game: "King of sweden insults emperor of russia" or "GB-Amiral visited US and promised everlasting friendship" 

Dont forget: it was european politics that diceded over carribean war's 😆

 

This would actually be an awesome mechanic.   And it's the normal mode of any Age of Sail game

 

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10 minutes ago, Mascarino said:

 If there was any hint of xenophobia, was against you. I don't like "show emotions" pussies like you.

#banhammertime

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2 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Question remains.

We all have full docks of ships. For what purpose ? What service do they serve except being there, rotting ?

Aren't they supposed to sail against enemies ?

Ah, the exact same reason why we lock our cars at the corner store, we don’t like losing things of worth!

By game design, things hard to obtain are assigned worth.

The polar is “sustainability”, if ships and mods were easy to replace players would deploy.   

By the way, following this thread, everybody is overthinking PBs, manpower? sound like more rules to fix more bad rules, and the bad one here is 25k/20k BRs, the fix is to reduce them to pre-release levels, to levels where all (smaller) clans and nations can resource the battle, it could be as simple as that.

Edited by Guest

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23 minutes ago, Mascarino said:

If there was any hint of xenophobia, was against you.

qkyi1VZ.gif

23 minutes ago, Mascarino said:

I don't like "show emotions" pussies like you.

CJyVZNF.gif

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TLDR version: The key to putting the brakes on unlimited nation/clan growth is not artificial limits, but add complexity to the game play required to dominate the world. No hardcaps on nations, just make them face the challenges of building an empire.

I'm not concerned about a Zerg. If there's one thing I've learned from my years in this game is that what appears to be status quo eventually changes. And for those of us who play regularly, a few real life weeks may seem like a long time but remembering back, look at the number of powerful clans and/or nations who have either suffered massive setbacks, changed their role or focus, or even disbanded or quit.

Being the most powerful depends on many factors but ultimately the most important is leadership and that leader(s) being joined with the right team at the right time. Throw real life events into the mix: Leaders playing less, real life personalities conflict, the loss of a specific resource or fleet at the wrong time, well... I salute those who can keep it together for long periods of real life time.

Anyway, I'm not in favor of the more artificial options to limit faction size. I'd much rather see more a simulation of the real life challenges that large nation states face. @admin's idea of labor costs is good. The more developed an economy, the higher the labor cost. I'd add that developed ports should have greater import/export needs. "Scarce" resource variations have been tried and found wanting. However if the resources were available somewhere on the map but need to be traded and moved, it would spur OW activity.

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