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Russia captures Roseau: the devs have to act aggressively to deal with the population balance

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Limits could actually make trading/hauling profitable (worth it) again...  

Making things super easy for everyone to obtain clearly did NOT contribute to retaining players (at least, in my opinion).

You don't have to go hardcore, but it only makes sense that bigger factions should deplete more resources and that resources should NOT be limitless...

 

The underlying problem is that the game gets EASIER as you progress...  the "haves" get all the good stuff and the have-nots feel like they have to join the zerg to become one of the "haves"

Edited by Vernon Merrill
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7 hours ago, admin said:

nice idea
1,000,000 DB cost to switch to OP nation, 0 to small nation
Its like buying a passport. Some nations will have a free passport (if you sneak in) and some nations will have it very expensive due to strict immigration policy.

one major problem is we already have the forger dlc which was purchased so we could change to different nations. would adding in this feature at this price really be worth it as a feature/

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1 hour ago, Angus MacDuff said:

That's a concern.  What does a player do who loves sailing his heavy ship?  If he hasn't enough crew, does he go out in a 5th rate or log off? (#KISS)

Maybe place the Manpower Limiter to SoLs only? Perhaps a limit multiplier, say x5 on 1st rates, x3 on 2nd rates, x2 on 3rd rates, and nothing on 4th rates and below.

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4 hours ago, Gilles de Rais said:

Problem: Nobody will want the noobs! Bei sure big Clans will do their best to evict noobs and bad players ... this can end in a very toxic Community …

Which is not the best scenario in a game that is struggling in retaining enough players.

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Putting built-in artificial hurdles one must jump over to be in a certain nation is foolish.  A smarter approach would be to address why folks go to the zerg nation in the first place.  

Why do they switch? 
- organization
- safety of ports
- activity
- ease

As a clan that did switch to Russia I can tell you we left because of activity and a lack of organization.  RVR being prominent within the game if you are in a nation that doesn't have a fleet or it's act together you are fodder for those that do.  Russia has it's shit together.  Pirates simply did not.  We didn't leave because we were worried about the dutch taking our ports.... hell we negotiated a deal with WO in game while we were sitting in Russian TS laughing about it.  In Pirates clans refused to join port battles unless their leaders were running the battle, we had to build ships for clans that were incapable of crafting a fleet of surprises and the general cat herding was simply deemed not worth it.  Why spend the extra hours trying to get ready to enjoy the "fun" part of Naval Action?  In Russia you show up at the pre-planned port at a certain time, sail out and go have fun.  

It would seem that folks have been saying for months that they want Ports and RVR to matter.  Perhaps it now they matter too much.  Loss of a crafting port is no joke and the cost to upgrade one is very high.  Also the absurdly small friendly clans list of 15 makes it difficult to even get on a list in an established nation.  It would seem that even with population at the highest it had been in years, RVR participation was at it's lowest.  Costly ships, costly ports and high BR make the price of admission into RVR simply too high.  So why bother.  If you have all the ports you need and can build into the ports what they don't have....what's the point in taking more? 

RVR is supposed to be the highest form of content in this game and it just simply isn't enjoyable.  It doesn't matter what sort of fake limitations is placed on a nation, but if the cost of getting to the fun part is too high....it's not fun.  Back in the fine woods patch days RVR was cheap, port battles were full with screeners outside.  We also didn't have 11 nations.

Trim the nations, get rid of permits and lower some of the BR in various ports on the map.  I also liked @Gregory Rainsborough's idea of uncoupling the bahamas from regions.  Trying to making crafting harder in larger nations vs smaller ones is stupid and not worth the coding time.     

 

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2 hours ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

Preference should be given to those in nation first rather than late joiners if you do go this way admin.

 

Could work

Access to 1 extra crew per 1 day in nation. Starting with 20 for trading. 
Being in United States since 1760 - Have all the manpower you want. Just arrived from Haiti - Sail the trader cutter for 20 days until the normal cutter.

Of course if you join the weak nation - no problemo - all manpower you want.

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12 minutes ago, admin said:

Could work

Access to 1 extra crew per 1 day in nation. Starting with 20 for trading. 
Being in United States since 1760 - Have all the manpower you want. Just arrived from Haiti - Sail the trader cutter for 20 days until the normal cutter.

Of course if you join the weak nation - no problemo - all manpower you want.

Admin, it is not a population problem.

 

It is all about the players. Look at russia and GB, same pop but completely different. Why? Because of the kind of players.

Russia is full of veteran-hardcore players while GB has way more new and casual players. You cant change that.

 

But you can make that the players from different nations interested in the same stuff could play and fight together. Make that foreign clans could ally.

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8 hours ago, admin said:

If your nation has 50% of players only ship you can get (due to lack of free manpower) is the frigate or you have to ask someone to lend you 800 sailors (who each eat 1 ton of provision per game month and needs 1 gold db salary per month).

Delete building for provisions and make provisions only to be obtainable by fishing - maybe make some fishing mini game and add some skill books which improve fishing

And make fishing allowed only if you are for example atleast 10k distance from nearest port so you cant camp outside docks/under fort

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16 minutes ago, o7Captain said:

Delete building for provisions and make provisions only to be obtainable by fishing - maybe make some fishing mini game and add some skill books which improve fishing

And make fishing allowed only if you are for example atleast 10k distance from nearest port so you cant camp outside docks/under fort

so...we can't create food and provisions from farming the land, that seems incredibly lazy.

the problem I see is not that less people will have 1st rates, but rather nations/groups/clans will just wait "longer" in order to have a 25 man 1st rate fleet.

artificially limiting a resource in hopes that players just "go fight port battles" with less than max BR on what the port shows is short-sighted. limiting a resource to force less production of 1st rates doesn't stop a group from eventually getting a full fleet of 1st rates.

IF we truly wanted to limit 1st rates/lineships then there are a number of options that may not be well received:

1. You hard cap lineships for each clan/nation - and this won't go well

2. you force Port Battles to have limitations such as 2 1st rates, 3 2nds, 10 3rds - @van der Clam and a few others have proposed something like this.

3. Lower BR of ports

4. Lower the base speed of all lineships

5. lineships can only be docked or used in county capital ports and battles

6. hard cap Ship Rates on port battles - randomize it like 4th, 3rds, 5hs, and so on (similar to patrol zones).

 

There are a myriad of suggestions - both some i like and also don't like that seem better than making a "manpower" limitation in game.

 

Heck - FOCUS on Economy in the game, making it better, more fluid. The battle aspect of this game is near perfect - there is no need to continue messing with it when the rest of the MMO part of this game is decaying.

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Removing unlimited ressources & crew is an interesting concept and would totally change the game dynamic, but at this stage post release i might be dangerous and unproductive as i fail to see how anouncing increased limitations would make players try again the game, i'm all for limiting 1st rates even more (and your proposal could work in that sense), but it also affect the newbies in basic cutter so...

 

How will that prevent the top 5 RvR/PvP clans to team-up in an empty nation (like poland) and still stomp every other nation counting zero or few good RvR/PvP clans but having to manage tons of noobs sinking a lot ?

If they are good clans alliance, they will conquer more ports so more ress access, and sunk less in 25 1st rates when facing 25 wasa, so the change will not hurt them more than the others i think, but devs must have better data than me. 

I can't see anything else than allowing alliance between the worse nation in the rvr ranking. Except maybe forcing civil war when top 3 clans are in a same nation (but how to force them to fight each others ? + game should not force you into doing stuff you disagree with, or else you will simply stop playing or trick the system, not counting that it could be bypassed by all joining a super clan.)

Edited by Baptiste Gallouédec

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37 minutes ago, admin said:

Could work

Access to 1 extra crew per 1 day in nation. Starting with 20 for trading. 
Being in United States since 1760 - Have all the manpower you want. Just arrived from Haiti - Sail the trader cutter for 20 days until the normal cutter.

Of course if you join the weak nation - no problemo - all manpower you want.

Agree, could work, but it smacks more of the stick than the carrot. It is quite risky going with the stick.

I'm sure there are possibilities of going with carrot only, more possibilities than I can conjure...

The economy needs to stay the same because reasons, but you could fiddle with marks and permits and whatever else decides how much effort it takes to click out a ship.

Off the top of my head example:

All but everyone is grinding marks, combat and vic, in order to be allowed to click out ships. These days you can grind marks without really engaging in pvp, so that makes anti-alt and anti-"exploiting" a tad difficult. The general idealized idea is that it pays off a lot more to do PvP in a small faction, I say PvP to avoid those corner-of-the-map-safe-multiplied-alt grinders you would get if you allowed PvE activities to be multiplied in small factions. If someone places an alt in a small faction and does PvP to grind stuff, does that constitute alt-leeching?

Aces High has a system a bit like this. There is no grind for anything nor an economy in Aces High, but there are a few OP vehicles available. If you PvP in a weak vehicle and succeed you get paid a lot in special points, that amount is multiplied further if you fight in a small faction or team. In addition the smaller team pays less to take out OP vehicles with said points while the steamroll team may be blocked from using those OP vehicles entirely. Works somewhat as a balancer and clearly as motivation to switch to the weak side. Switching is easy in AH as there is no meaning to anything there, there is only a cool-down measured in single digit hours. Plebs would still join the large team in order to win the war but most smart and accomplished players would pick the underdog team for more targets, more points and cheaper OP vehicles.

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1 hour ago, admin said:

Could work

Access to 1 extra crew per 1 day in nation. Starting with 20 for trading. 
Being in United States since 1760 - Have all the manpower you want. Just arrived from Haiti - Sail the trader cutter for 20 days until the normal cutter.

Of course if you join the weak nation - no problemo - all manpower you want.

You would get tons of support tickets then. People would complain they didn't know it's the case. 

 

Why not limit CM and doubloon acquisition? It's the simplest way to make whole clans switch nations, and that's the goal.

 

You can't use anything based on gold, as it can be abused by alts. 

 

Another option is to limit port bonuses of the most numerous nations. 

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Same in IL-2 online wars. The more populated sides may deplete the available models very fast. ( additional numbers must actually be flown from the rear and delivered to the front AF, so it is a measure of logistics, and they can be intercepted of course ).

But there's a caveat, that would happen both in AH or IL2. What if high skilled squadrons join the bigger side. They will use the assets more efficiently and resorting less to necessary logistics of bringing reinforcements from the rear AF.

Similar to NA at the moment, where player choice accumulated skill and numbers on Team Red, while Team Blue is left with losses and logistical issues.

But then, there's no win in NA other than forcing enemies to just surrender by giving up.

What is interesting in NA is that not even combat is needed to win, as opposed to AH, IL2 or any other big scenario wargame type of game.

Just the threat of being zerged is enough to give up.

Any weird balance done must not be done by Nation but by clan, given CLAN is the base unit now.

So limits on crew, on amount of ranked ships, etc must be done by clan.

So a clan with 250 members but limited to 5 rank 1 ships of the line is at the same level as a clan of 20 members which is also entitled to 5 rank 1 ships of the line.

But this is weird, because each captain in NA is a self contained fleet, so technically one captain could have 27 rank 1 ships of the line. As opposed to AH/IL2 were each pilot is just that, a pilot one plane.

So the question remains - where do the single captain liberty ends to balance clan powers ?

Because zerg is clan power, by numbers and by resource mounting and single click ship summoning.

A clan of 20 did build ships that will last a lifetime, when used with skill for the purpose they have been built and focused on pvp, whatever format, and this since release. And we keep pumping more and more ships replacing less good ones with better ones. So I wonder what a clan of 250 can do.

It is infinite power. No stopping that sandbox liberty.

 

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7 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Just the threat of being zerged is enough to give up.

Heh, anyone else know why this happens to us?

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1 hour ago, Staunberg said:

An easy solution could be just close some Nations down, so only new player can go there.

Maybe give a relocation pack for played warning to join another nation.

Yes, closing down nations that can be moved to would be a good, simple solution.

Justify it on the basis that the forger has run out of papers for it :)

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12 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Heh, anyone else know why this happens to us?

"us" like in "us NA players" ?

Well... just the threat of 1 enemy vessel in one area sends dozens of players rushing to port to sit there.... let alone a entire empire bearing down on you.

It ain't loss, it is "i don't want pvp right now...."

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29 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

 

IF we truly wanted to limit 1st rates/lineships then there are a number of options that may not be well received:

 

We do not want to limit first rates.
We want to remove incentives to switch to a strong nation, or remove/reduce incentives to start an account for a certain new nation

The game is skill based and due to nature of life it will always be unbalanced.
The max size has equal numbers with 25 v 25 ships and the weaker side can always be reinforced by additional players.
Strong nations cannot be solved without drastic natural measures 
But even with those drastic measures some nations will be stronger (positive pvp oriented nations) as even if you have 25 v 25 in equal ships this battle can be already unbalanced due to knowledge or training. Even in pure equal games like CS CS endgame rounds can end up with pisols vs automatic rifles.

This is what pvp prospective buyers see  (lets say last week)
49qTTFo.png

Live streams are the qualifiers - they show long journeys, ganking and solo fights 7 pvp kills over 5 hour session - the game as is

  • Lets say there is a guy with the dream to be the Terror of the Seas? Which nation this pvp oriented player might join after checking the twitch?  
  • Lets say there is a guy who wants to play for a strong country which nation this player might join after checking the forum?

Which nation he might join? 

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30 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

 

Just the threat of being zerged is enough to give up.

 

It's a long wargame. It does not have rounds and does not have victors

One nation is strong. FOR NOW. 
PvP players do not give the ***k. If you want more pvp you do not join russia

Zerg = more targets

Men should cry less and go ganking. Some known russian players show what they do on stream - gank them every evening in cheap ships until you learn. Then you can take on any group or clan.

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1 hour ago, Intrepido said:

Admin, it is not a population problem.

 

It is all about the players. Look at russia and GB, same pop but completely different. Why? Because of the kind of players.

 

 Maybe you overestimate the importance of Russia due to MSNBC and CNN? You should watch Felix news more ;)
https://na-map.netlify.com/ I see three large countries. GB looks very strong.

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5 minutes ago, admin said:

One nation is strong. FOR NOW. 
PvP players do not give the ***k. If you want more pvp you do not join russia

 

6 minutes ago, admin said:

One nation is strong. FOR NOW. 
PvP players do not give the ***k. If you want more pvp you do not join russia

I still think a limit on nation size would move players around the map...(I get plenty of PVP)

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38 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

But then, there's no win in NA other than forcing enemies to just surrender by giving up.

Surrendering players give up the game. Reason why the population sinks.

Clan power is too big in game to leave room for them as independent. 

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Just now, admin said:

 Maybe you overestimate the importance of Russia due to MSNBC and CNN? You should watch Felix news more ;)
https://na-map.netlify.com/ I see three large countries. GB looks very strong.

You really need to play the game.

GB was only strong in 2016 and when HAVOC was there.

Ports arent really a meassure of real power. The power is on the players.

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1 minute ago, Aquillas said:

Surrendering players give up the game. Reason why the population sinks.

Clan power is too big in game to leave room for them as independent. 

If left unchecked for too long, yes. Comes a time when it is too late to oppose any enemy that is also playing the game and doing the same as you. Gathering resources, pumping out ships and on top of that, actually sailing out to pvp ( gives way more xp to rank than harvesting AI ).

We all started equal. We all took different routes.

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