STRONG SUGGESTION FOR POPULATION SURVIVAL

[Tenet]

58 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

No. It is a interception and destruction of a enemy before it hits your own base or whatever. So...Try again. And again. And again... 

This is an embarrassingly bad argument, using a very obvious false analogy fallacy. 

In the Arena games you reference you can play multiple vehicles on the same account, and sometimes in the same match, and so the waiting time between destruction and "trying again" is counted in seconds, sometimes a few minutes for queues. 

In Naval Action the time between destruction and "trying again" for a new player can be hours, or days, depending on their understanding of economy and the ship they lost.

So.. GRIND A FEW HOURS... try again. And.... GRIND A FEW HOURS again. And ... GRIND A FEW HOURS again. 

Here's a sample scenario:

One of the most newbie friendly events we have in the game is the shallow zone patrol. 

To participate you need to buy or make a Surprise - 50 to 100k depending on woods, and you have to tow each one, once per day, to load up the port prior to the event. You also need 32pd Carronades to be competitive, which cost 4400 reals/each at Shroud Cay, which adds another 100K to the price. So for a new player, there will be 150 to 200K + value of a tow (paid in advance) for every "AGAIN" in your narrative.

In the OW PvP, the math is far worse, because you will be facing Wasas (or at best Trincs), played by veterans. 

A clanless player might take a week to gather the money and resources to replace one such ship, and they can lose it in a 15 minute battle before learning anything significant. Then they quit the game. But you don't care, because you can go back to your WT Arena, and keep making bad arguments on the Game-Labs forums to white-knight the developers.

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Tenet

[Nicolau Coelho]

To make the economy stronger it must be find a way to integrate the PvE player who will trade and build in the PvP server, so that will be maybe 300-400 more player.

Dont ask me how, that is not my job, but that is one solution for one problem.

[Nicolau Coelho]

Hm, both sides have right, on their own side, but it doesnt matter. The goal should be to take this game allive. 
We all love the game with all the bad and good things, thats why we all here. So the intention of us all is the
same goal i think. For me, in the current form it is not on a good way. The number dont lie. It give much suggestions
how it can be better, what way are the right way..i dont know. But like now it can not go on. 

But another huge problem from my side is, that only a minority are use this forum. Let me say 1000 ppl are 
playing this game, but how much are here in the forum to interakt, make suggestions etc etc? Always the same
30-40 players, thats scince years. Unfortunately, then the people are listened to this minority. For example, what 
had be happend, when 1 week after release with let me say 1700 ppl are online 20% of them had find the way
here to the forum, that was 340 ppl, or 50% what 850 ppl., if than for example 800 ppl say here, the way of this 
game is not the good way, or its not fun to be ganked, than i think it doesnt matter what the 30 hardcore ppl say.
So it must be an intention, all the ppl who play this game bring here to the forum, where they tell their side before
they leave the game and tell everybody to avoid this game. Understand what i mean? My english i snot the best, srry.

[Jean Pual Vilvenue]

14 hours ago, Nicolau Coelho said:

One huge problem is, that it give not good manual or so.  And ganking or so, its always a "problem" in PvP games. No one can avoid that. So for so ppl it give teh PvE server. but the best solution where that it give a way that PvP and PvE player play together on one server. That was the best for the server economy. Dont ask me how to do it but it must be possible to do this.

Why the PvE server has not been merged yet I have no idea !!

[Tenet]

2 hours ago, Nicolau Coelho said:

1700 people are online

I find this argument interesting. Here is another thought:

The "1700 people" that are still online, are also a Minority.

100,000+ people own the game, and most of them no longer play it. Lets say that there are 95000 people who have stopped playing.

They are the majority that paid for the product during Early Access and decided not to play.

They are the majority that should be catered to so they come back, start playing again, and get confident enough in the game to spend their money on DLC. 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Tenet

[Harry G Jiggins]

So, I have been playing NA for about a month approx.

And here are my thoughts from a NOOB perspective on the game.

1) I have no problem getting sunk, or getting beaten in a battle.  I like the Clan dynamic.  I think it is fair that when BR ratings are equal the battle gets locked preventing a hugely unfair gang fest to take place where you have one player in one ship fighting 20 enemy clan ships.  I think NPC's fighting one or two players is fun, and farming NPC's can be fun too.

2)  I have been sunk many times, and lose the majority of my battles with grace, and I don't feel bad.  Fighting one or two ships of equal level, or maybe a level or two higher is fine.  Even if I lose I can still manage to get some XP and even a bit of money to build a new ship.  So, I am not a whiny crybaby.

3) I recently have been Ganked by 2 players in one battle.  I was in a Snow and got attacked by two much larger ships.  I didn't have a chance,  and the Snow I had cost me a lot of hours of grinding being new to the game.  I was really angry.  I struggled to penetrate the two enemy ships as their armour was far stronger than anything at my rank level, they had twice the guns on either ship and larger calibre.  I tried to run away but couldn't as they had the "control area" perk.  They rushed me, blocked me from leaving, rammed me, and shot out my sails... Surrounded I fired several broadsides into the enemy ships with only a small fraction of the shots doing any damage at all even at point blank range.  Their crew numbers on both ships were nearly triple mine, and I got easily boarded, they took all my mods, any cargo, and my ship with little skill or effort on their part.  I literally was so angry that I almost uninstalled the game never to play again.

4) I agree with the idea that many NOOBS in this game are likely to quit if they get completely wiped out regularly by vastly superior veteran players.

5)  If it isn't possible to prevent some of those veteran players from clubbing seals, then the game should discourage it by reduction of XP and any gains to Veterans who do it.  Essentially make it a waste of time for anyone to Seal Club.  No PVP leadership credits if you are killing people more than a tier down.  If there are a few players who need the ego boost sinking 6th and 7th rates in their tripped out 1st-3rd rates fine, but make the battles relatively inexpensive for the NOOB, and unprofitable for the Seal Clubber.

6) Personally I wouldn't feel a great deal of satisfaction sinking newer players than myself, as the battles would be boring, it is much more fun to play against people where both sides have a reasonable chance of winning, or at least of doing some serious damage.

[Sea Archer]

We should bring back the reinforcement zone and remove the 20min timer. To protect the new players and to prevent the others from being jumped during battle. 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Hethwill said:

Game is multiplayer and clan based, in essence. Not different from other multiplayer, team based games. While it has the MMO sugar coat it is undeniable that is a quasi.simulation wargame. The arena is just VAST, and resources mechanics different.

As in many multiplayer simulation wargames you will have to play with others, sail, fly, march with them towards your immediate, and your long term objectives.

There are no specific scenarios other than the ones you and others setup. Be it in the War or the Peace servers.

On the War server, PvP will be when you want it and when others want it, no matter if you want it or if they want it. It is based on two things - OW chance encounters and provoked fleet actions; OW area blockades and Conquest mechanics.

Now, if you want to be part of it all you must accept multiplayer clan based wargame. If you simply want to embrace the joy of OW chance encounters solo is okay, just don't expect all the others that are here for the multiplayer clan based gameplay to be merciful.

And as a sidenote, what do you think a "newcomer" in a air combat sim feels when he is shot out of the blue without even noticing the bandit on his 6 ? POOF gone. What about your beautiful multicrew bomber being "ganked" by a squadron of bandits ? Is it a gank ? No. It is a interception and destruction of a enemy before it hits your own base or whatever. So...Try again. And again. And again... and learn. And when that said "newcomer" starts to understand why the veteran did this and that and snatches his first kill, a new world opens. NA is not so different from it.

Do not dismiss the willingness of any player in any game to learn, if the player really like the game, for its setting, for its mechanics, for its deliver of personal fun ( it is a hobby after all ).

And plenty of NA players have learned and pass knowledge everyday to others.

Now... if they are willing to learn or simply want to rush somewhere is another subject entirely.

There's no safety in a pvp multiplayer combat environment. The only safety is to sail with your buddies and kill the other guys before they kill you.

All of the above is the embodiment of what’s wrong with NA.

Take KSP at this moment, Avg.Players 4023, a game with none of the aspects above yet populated, a game that brings NA into perspective (and one that’s still going strong).

And there lies the quintessential, pop. NA tries to build a playerbase from RvR (from clans), whereas other MMO builds RvR from there playerbase. Yes the end game is important but so is the beginners game, the average game and the solo/causal game, without those and basing the game on purely clan members only and group combat has striped the game of any meaningful pop.

The list of obstacles can go on and on but this forum is already an exemplar of that said.

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Guest

[Sir Loorkon]

This is a good PvP game with an excellent combat system and I can not (under-)stand this „new player protection“ discussion. We had this back and forth for years. New players can do the Tutorial and level in the Capital zone and do insta closing missions. Further on they can search for a quiet place and if they do not want any risk they can join the peace server. Better this than all the „fake“ PvP players and overprotection mechanics. The PvP machanics are good. The main problem is the RvR. First of all it is just to time consuming. Second the BR in PB is to high. Third the bonussed ports are „to“ important (I am really interested what will happen if they get lost and how many more join the zerg or leave the game). Nearly all ports are unimportant. Alts ruin the prices of rare resources so the only reason to have a port might be the tax income or - of course - the bonusses. But with a good placed alt you can solve this, too. 

[Karvala]

1 hour ago, Sir Loorkon said:

This is a good PvP game with an excellent combat system and I can not (under-)stand this „new player protection“ discussion. We had this back and forth for years. New players can do the Tutorial and level in the Capital zone and do insta closing missions. Further on they can search for a quiet place and if they do not want any risk they can join the peace server. Better this than all the „fake“ PvP players and overprotection mechanics. The PvP machanics are good. The main problem is the RvR. First of all it is just to time consuming. Second the BR in PB is to high. Third the bonussed ports are „to“ important (I am really interested what will happen if they get lost and how many more join the zerg or leave the game). Nearly all ports are unimportant. Alts ruin the prices of rare resources so the only reason to have a port might be the tax income or - of course - the bonusses. But with a good placed alt you can solve this, too. 

New players can do the tutorials, sure.  They can realistically pass the first four exams with OW practice.  So now they're in a Rattlesnake.  Your suggestions are that stay in the Capital Zone or search for a quiet place.  If they stay in Capital Zone, they can't do missions to earn any Reals or Doubloons and they won't gain much experience.  They'll also get extremely bored and probably leave.  If they try to search for a quiet place, if such a thing even exists, that means sailing all over the map looking for it = being ganked and going to be square one multiple times.  Again, they get bored and frustrated and probably leave.

These concerns are real, they have driven players away; they can't just be dismissed.  Sure, vets have valid concerns about RvR and alts kill the game for everyone, but first and foremost here needs to be a decent and preferably growing player base and there won't be if vets are only interested in arranging things to suit themselves and viewing new players as food or care bears who need to toughen up.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Karvala

[Angus MacDuff]

Make trading viable again and triple the size of the Capitol zone.  That would have a big impact

[Captain2Strong]

21 hours ago, Karvala said:

Sure, vets have valid concerns about alts kill the game for everyone

how? I can only remember other things being pointed out and justified...

.... and well yeah, either make trash hauling viable or reduce the production cost so people can afford to play the game... this is the point that someone with a bit of power is going to ignore, and this person is going to ignore that forever - maybe this is not the whole solution, but it's a significant part of the solution

Edited August 22, 2019 by Captain2Strong

[Raf Van Boom]

Let's say I'm a player who's fed up with the game, so for me, personally here is what drives me away:

too much sailing, boredom, big fights, a rarirty here, 99% of the time it's gank or be ganked, don't care about any econ, great mods and all that stuff that's supposed to create content. The combat in the game is great, but you just can't get it. Loosen up this shit a little bit, let people have fun.

 

[LIONOFWALES]

Aggressive NPCs will make you sweat a little while doing deliveries aye?

 

[LegoLarry]

3 hours ago, Raf Van Boom said:

Let's say I'm a player who's fed up with the game, so for me, personally here is what drives me away:

too much sailing, boredom, big fights, a rarirty here, 99% of the time it's gank or be ganked, don't care about any econ, great mods and all that stuff that's supposed to create content. The combat in the game is great, but you just can't get it. Loosen up this shit a little bit, let people have fun.

 

Agree 100%

When so many players are afk sailing either watching netflix or playing another game it is quite sad really.

[Destraex]

I personally think that removing combat medals and XP or any other incentive for players above post captain attacking players below master and commander would be good. 

Also instituting a global gentleman's agreement across the server to let players trading and fighting against AI of rank below master and commander be on their way, unless they wish to fight by agreement. 

I certainly agree that in some form seal clubbing does affect the number of people that keep playing and stay on.

I tend to think that the solution is un-capturable capitals should have AI that protect players under the rank of master and commander as long as they stay in the capital and it's immediate satellite city area. 

I am also hoping that the new raid mechanics put pressure on nations that have expanded beyond their active population size. Unfortunately I think that a lot of "can't beat em join em" types have already swelled the size of some nations to the  point that this mechanic may not reflect the number of ports a nation should have, if their population was not swelled by mercenary types that join the winning side.

I guess another solution might be just to make nations core ports all 20 or so and un capturable but raidable. Then have the rest up for grabs. Meaning that no nation can actually die beyond being economically viable all together.

P.S. Sorry if I am a bit off topic. But I think all of the above is directly related to the game being viable in the long term. Especially for those that take a break every now and then to come back. I really would love to see this game keep growing and expanding with more DLC and more maps. It's unique and amazing.

[Guest]

maybe PvP ranks is something we need soon to prevent the rewards for seal clubbing? Lets be honest, what are the pros/cons of sealclubbing.

Pros: easy xp, easy pvp missions, quite possibly easy ship access(capturing), fun (lets be honest, who hasnt fun killing 10 noobs with a slightly larger ship then 1 hr of 1v1 duel however all players are different.), TONS of dubloons, Farming new players, easier difficulity then ai (slower warships running away instead of fighting), new players dont know about RoE which makes tags easier, just in general you feel like a god that can do whatever you want, low risk = high reward.

Cons: likely to quit rather then grinding a new ship for several hours, give bad reviews of their experience of the game about flaws and mechanics that wouldnt make much sense.

 

Those are the pros/cons i can come up with atm, i think there needs to be some kind of pvp rank out from your KD (big enough scale so we cant see who has worst score, but also scale it so we can see who has more then 10KD for example), so if there are like 2 ranks inbetween no matter if its a 1st rate vs 4th it will count as a equal battle in skill. Of course the one with lower rank gets much more rewards if successful to kill the one with higher rank then the other way around. But this is something that has to be looked more on.

I think this would encourage players to not kill noobs as much and try to hunt players of higher ranks, e.g seing ram dinark (yeah right, like someone has a chance) in combat news at baracoa should be a reason to go over there and try to kill him.

 

PvP Rewards: Certain rates of rewards based on rank, should make it unexploitable by having smurf accounts being at lowest rank clubbing noobs and let them receive highest rank rewards. e.g silver chest at lowest rank vs admiral chest at highest rank mission.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Guest

[eneibesmuB]

I can't decide between a new player and a skilled player in the Open World. Especially if there are only 900 players online and i see a player who i can attack i will attack. I learned this game the hard way. If I can do that, other people will do it too.

This discussion comes too late. The game is already released. Why should the dev's do a 180 degrees turn? Because you are not ok with the game it is at this stage? Then turn it of.  You are all here talking shit only because you can't manage to play the game the right way. You are sinking 5 times a day? Then you have to change something at your playstyle. The game won't change!

Edited August 22, 2019 by eneibesmuB

[Karvala]

6 hours ago, LIONOFWALES said:

Aggressive NPCs will make you sweat a little while doing deliveries aye?

 

No, aggressive NPCs will make you stop doing deliveries because you have a 0% chance of success against aggressive NPCs that are much heavily armed than a trader ship.

Players don't play games with 0% chance of success.  Mr Trader in his Traders Brig cannot fight corvettes and upwards with any possibility of success and running/dodging/being pulled into a battle you don't intend to fight is (a) pointless; (b) tedious; (c) unlike to succeed against the uber-PBd fast gank fleets.  Mr Solo Hunter similarly has zero chance of success against a gank fleet of 1st rates, whether player or NPC.  History shows time and again that faced with 0% chance of success, players leave.

Just to be clear, nobody is asking for 100% chance of success either; that would be dull.  But there has to be a reasonable probability that things will go okay on a given trip, or players won't make them.  Unlimited aggression with no negative consequences and no constraints outside of a Capital Zone = no trading and no solo hunting and yet more players leaving.

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, eneibesmuB said:

I can't decide between a new player and a skilled player in the Open World. Especially if there are only 900 players online and i see a player who i can attack i will attack. I learned this game the hard way. If I can do that, other people will do it too.

This discussion comes too late. The game is already released. Why should the dev's do a 180 degrees turn? Because you are not ok with the game it is at this stage? Then turn it of.  You are all here talking shit only because you can't manage to play the game the right way. You are sinking 5 times a day? Then you have to change something at your playstyle. The game won't change!

because they released an unfinished game, the game if delivered by other devs would be considered in the beta stages. GL has taken 1 step forward, 2 steps back for the last 2 years. And still they havent figured out a plan of how they want their game to be when 100% finished. They had to release it because its a due in steam they had to make else some refunds i think could have happened

[Razee]

10 minutes ago, Karvala said:

No, aggressive NPCs will make you stop doing deliveries because you have a 0% chance of success against aggressive NPCs that are much heavily armed than a trader ship.

Players don't play games with 0% chance of success.  Mr Trader in his Traders Brig cannot fight corvettes and upwards with any possibility of success and running/dodging/being pulled into a battle you don't intend to fight is (a) pointless; (b) tedious; (c) unlike to succeed against the uber-PBd fast gank fleets.  Mr Solo Hunter similarly has zero chance of success against a gank fleet of 1st rates, whether player or NPC.  History shows time and again that faced with 0% chance of success, players leave.

Just to be clear, nobody is asking for 100% chance of success either; that would be dull.  But there has to be a reasonable probability that things will go okay on a given trip, or players won't make them.  Unlimited aggression with no negative consequences and no constraints outside of a Capital Zone = no trading and no solo hunting and yet more players leaving.

If you take missions that go to friendly ports it wont change a thing,since there are no enemie ai around there..it will only make it easier caus hunters have to avoid the AI..

And if you get pulled by ai its incredibly easy to escape them since they are really dumb..it will only help against gankers..and yes if you want to smuggle to enemie ports you have to be more carefull..afk sailing into enemie ports with your alts are over

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Karvala said:

No, aggressive NPCs will make you stop doing deliveries because you have a 0% chance of success against aggressive NPCs that are much heavily armed than a trader ship.

Players don't play games with 0% chance of success.  Mr Trader in his Traders Brig cannot fight corvettes and upwards with any possibility of success and running/dodging/being pulled into a battle you don't intend to fight is (a) pointless; (b) tedious; (c) unlike to succeed against the uber-PBd fast gank fleets.  Mr Solo Hunter similarly has zero chance of success against a gank fleet of 1st rates, whether player or NPC.  History shows time and again that faced with 0% chance of success, players leave.

Just to be clear, nobody is asking for 100% chance of success either; that would be dull.  But there has to be a reasonable probability that things will go okay on a given trip, or players won't make them.  Unlimited aggression with no negative consequences and no constraints outside of a Capital Zone = no trading and no solo hunting and yet more players leaving.

i kind of understand, but i disagree. The ai has carronades as chasers which means they will never hit. The player can reposition before the initial battle entry during those 10 seconds. The ai in a trader can escape from any ai ship upwind because they will either turn into irons or downwind to fire broadside which results in it being further away.

Its gonna be annoying, but its not game destructive and people would have to pay more attention if they have more windows up and running with traders on their alts

[Atreides]

55 minutes ago, eneibesmuB said:

/snip

This discussion comes too late. The game is already released. Why should the dev's do a 180 degrees turn? Because you are not ok with the game it is at this stage? Then turn it of.

You have just stated the issue going forward.  People WILL turn it off because of the stat of it.  And the server pop will whither away, and the potential of this game will be lost until another developer comes up with something that has the shining qualities this game does, but does not have hard coded game mechanics designed to make people quit in disgust for the benefit of a few.  The devs need to decide what's more important, the business and market, or a few guys that just want to pwn nooobz.

[Karvala]

7 minutes ago, Razee said:

If you take missions that go to friendly ports it wont change a thing,since there are no enemie ai around there..it will only make it easier caus hunters have to avoid the AI..

And if you get pulled by ai its incredibly easy to escape them since they are really dumb..it will only help against gankers..and yes if you want to smuggle to enemie ports you have to be more carefull..afk sailing into enemie ports with your alts are over

That would be a fair point, except that neither of those things are true.  As a test, I just logged into PvP, and sailed from KPR as a member of GB.  Two things: (a) none of the available trade missions were for other GB ports, so I can't take missions that go to friendly ports; and (b) the first five ships I tagged were all enemy AI.  If I were a new player in my Basic Cutter, I would have no way of advancing.  In fact, I wouldn't even make it out of port against an aggressive AI; I'd be dead within minutes.  Sure, we could say "let's protect the Capital Zone and make that no-aggression", but I can't actually make any money in the Capital Zone so that doesn't really help much.

7 minutes ago, Wyy said:

i kind of understand, but i disagree. The ai has carronades as chasers which means they will never hit. The player can reposition before the initial battle entry during those 10 seconds. The ai in a trader can escape from any ai ship upwind because they will either turn into irons or downwind to fire broadside which results in it being further away.

Its gonna be annoying, but its not game destructive and people would have to pay more attention if they have more windows up and running with traders on their alts

I agree that being pulled into battle and running from the AI will be possible, but with the laser-guided accuracy of AI distance shooting and its initial loaded cannons, there will always be damage.  The extent of the damage and the number of times someone is pulled into battle between ports will determine whether or not they survive.  But as you say, it's going to be annoying and it wastes a lot of time sailing out range and waiting for the battle timer.  If it happened occasionally, people could probably live with it.  If it happened multiple times per trip, it will become intolerable.

[Hethwill]

Is not stated anywhere that ALL A.I. will be hostile.