STRONG SUGGESTION FOR POPULATION SURVIVAL

[Atreides]

There is a PROBLEM, game mechanics give rewards for players coming in and smashing low level players.  We all know how combat news comes up, Player X comes in with SUPER SHIP PORT BONUS BIG BOY with all the bling and mods and kicks puppies for hours at a time until he has achieved another mission and then leaves to collect his reward for just hurting low level players. 

This is akin to a very strong street thug entering a children's playground and beating the little ones to death, and when he has his 10 dead kids, he leaves running from the adults trying to protect the kids.

After this he returns to his home port, and the Constable (Game mechanics ala Developer) hands him his gold and rewards for killing those kids because a job well done.

The aftermath is people quit, either because they can't accomplish anything without losing everything repeatedly, or they join the other team so they can be showered with rewards for stomping puppies, because game mechanics do double harm by denying the struggling children even enough reales to replace what is taken from them, and they say, "I bought this game to have fun, and this is how it is set up, UNINSTALL and I will tell my friends to AVOID this game, the company, now to STEAM to see if I can get my refund.

Thus we have a situation where Game Labs has lost, and will continue to lose, potential sales that could be in the MILLIONS, all to cater to the few big bad-asses who kill children for fun and get rewards showered upon them by game mechanics.

NO REWARDS [Missions, reales, dubloons etc] for sinking ships 2 classes below you, only expense on your part UNLESS it is a BR difference that puts you at real actual disadvantage.  You have to actually EARN what you get, as opposed to being blessed for doing your part to kill the population of another nation.

This game can still GROW, still produce profits for YEARS, but with the mechanics in place stubbornly catering to people whose very behaviour is toxic to a game community, and yet ENCOURAGED and REWARDED in the game.  Shooting both feet for trying to walk down the road of success.

Thank you for reading, this is based on my observations and experience in this gorgeous, game that I love, after using paypal to buy an Alpha Key in Aug 2015.  The analogy may read as extreme, but it is accurate.

[Captain2Strong]

4 minutes ago, Atreides said:

There is a PROBLEM, game mechanics give rewards for players coming in and smashing low level players.  We all know how combat news comes up, Player X comes in with SUPER SHIP PORT BONUS BIG BOY with all the bling and mods and kicks puppies for hours at a time until he has achieved another mission and then leaves to collect his reward for just hurting low level players. 

This is akin to a very strong street thug entering a children's playground and beating the little ones to death, and when he has his 10 dead kids, he leaves running from the adults trying to protect the kids.

It's not like I will protect the british ones, because I'm not going to achieve anything this way!

[Atreides]

This applies to any nation, even 5 guys rocking up to a Russian PVE area killing new players.

[Captain2Strong]

on the other hand it's just a fundamental aspect of the game - the stronger ones survive, and the weaker, dumber ones die (there is some amount of exceptions, but that's how it works in general)

but yeah I cannot disagree with the fact that port bonus is bullshit - why? - because it's unnecessary bullshit which you have to haul trash for (all day and all night) - of course I received it for free

Edited August 20, 2019 by Captain2Strong

[Nicolau Coelho]

I agree with some things what you say

[eneibesmuB]

Sorry but i dont understand why all brits are thinking that we are going to truxillo with our best ships? I often use crap ships to go there 

[Captain2Strong]

2 minutes ago, eneibesmuB said:

Sorry but i dont understand why all brits are thinking that we are going to truxillo with our best ships? I often use crap ships to go there 

I've tried to find the answer to this mystery, but so far I have failed to find it

but sometimes they give you a reason to burst a nice little laugh when they say that you are lo/wo (most probably they can't angle the ship if that's the case) or some other bullshit

Edited August 20, 2019 by Captain2Strong

[Atreides]

Guys, I am not calling out individuals, I am not attacking YOU, this is not about YOU.  READ it again as a discussion of Game META, and the toxic behaviours it encourages.  This is a well thought out suggestion to hopefully get the Dev's attention on an issue that is costing him money, good will and success moving forward, because this is an example of a CORRECTABLE problem that is taking food off his table.

Please add any imput, or counter suggestions, but leave the silly nonsequiters somewhere else.  This is not the place for yuck yucks

Edited August 20, 2019 by Atreides

[Nicolau Coelho]

One huge problem is, that it give not good manual or so.  And ganking or so, its always a "problem" in PvP games. No one can avoid that. So for so ppl it give teh PvE server. but the best solution where that it give a way that PvP and PvE player play together on one server. That was the best for the server economy. Dont ask me how to do it but it must be possible to do this.

[Captain2Strong]

3 minutes ago, Nicolau Coelho said:

Dont ask me how to do it but it must be possible to do this.

are you absolutely sure?

[Guest]

Well I’ve just been over on KSP forum, 1350 guests 150 online, here 61! Pop all on the Dev’s, it’s up to them to give new players a fair go and feel welcome, they already know what could be done.  

[Captain2Strong]

7 minutes ago, Koveras said:

I fixed it for ya. Too late, the incompetence of the devs has already showed and rather adressing the larger issues with the game they chose to try to monetize the game by more DLCs.

this is sad and unfortunate, but sadly true

[Severus Snape]

PVP turned into a merciless gank fest the moment they introduced pvp marks/pvp rewards.  Game was designed to look good on a handful of player's streams and screenshots, everything else is just chaff.  

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Koveras said:

8 minutes ago, BuckleUpBones said:

Well I’ve just been over on KSP forum, 1350 guests 150 online, here 61! Pop all on the Dev’s, it’s up to them to give new players a fair go and feel welcome, they already know what could've been done.

I fixed it for ya. Too late, the incompetence of the devs has already showed and rather adressing the larger issues with the game they chose to try to monetize the game by more DLCs.

no not “do not"... do! 

[Beeekonda]

52 minutes ago, Louis Garneray said:

What I am wondering now is where are those100k players who allegedly bought the game ???

 Could admin send them an email to tell them that the game is out now

hmm

[LegoLarry]

 Perhaps the AI acting will have an effect on seal clubbing.

 Guess we will see.

@Atreides - good to bring this up, killing new guys doesn't help game at all.  Yesterday i tagged a GB indiaman in my snow and he had 120 crew..... i let him kill me for a lift home .

 

 If we all were more lenient with new guys perhaps the server pop would grow.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by LegoLarry

[Atreides]

Being lenient with new guys can't be expected from most people sadly, we are creatures of habit and issues.  Hard coded game mechanics that shower puppy stomping is asinine, and self destructive to an intellectual property you actually care about.

[LegoLarry]

17 minutes ago, Atreides said:

Being lenient with new guys can't be expected from most people sadly, we are creatures of habit and issues.  Hard coded game mechanics that shower puppy stomping is asinine, and self destructive to an intellectual property you actually care about.

 

 I suspect the AI will be a tool they will counter with, well i hope is the case.

Perhaps more someone camps an area then over time the AI have increasing chance to respond to the camper(s). 

Other games use the similiar methods to prevent hunt bots farming area's by spawning something that will kill bots in an easy area, easy to avoid if playing but lethal if a farming bot.

 I guess AI could be used to the same affect, with chance of AI response increasing longer someone camps a port/area.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by LegoLarry

[AeRoTR]

This problem always existed, many solutions has been offered. 

Result: they removed the reinforcement zones which was supposed to protect new players. The handfull of hardcore pvp guys were unhappy about the green zone. 

I also made some posts and warned the devs just before release. 

Game has been released, I farmed 80 combat medals in one day (8+6 hours session) around Mortimer town, cause my clan needed combat medals. I felt so bad, I did not do pvp for more than 1 month. So this is the game we have. Accept or move on, I accepted. 

[Karvala]

The problem is fundamental to any PvP game.  Where two players fight and one player wins, it means another player loses.  The core question is: how do you make it feel like a fair fight for both players?  Clearly noob Mr Pickle vs pb'd L'Ocean is not it, and when Mr Pickle gets ganked for the 10th time, he permanently leaves and trashes the game on review sites and social media.  The reviews for this game even on Steam are surprisingly negative considering the high quality of large parts of it and the attractive subject matter, and this is doubtless one of the main reasons.

To my mind, there are various possible solutions, none of them perfect:-

1.  Level limits along the lines proposed by the OP.  Problem is any level difference, which normally goes along with an experience difference, will lead to the new player losing every time, so it doesn't really solve it unless you force the level limit to be the same.  Then, though, you will get the high level players complaining that they can't find opponents or that they don't have to fight only high level opponents.

2.  Safe areas.  The shallows are a bit like this, but that only covers up to light 5th rates and it's a single grade, and even within that you still get ganking.  More finely graded safe areas, or safe routes, might help a bit.  Many games have areas designed for particular levels of experience/skill/equipment and that could be developed here.

3.  AI protection.  Clearly you can't realistically expect other players to sacrifice themselves to defend new players who they don't know, and there aren't enough players anyway for that to be viable.  However, if we're going to have aggressive AI, then one interesting possibility is for the AI to defend new players and attack existing players based on their gank statistics.  It would be easy enough to automatically calculate how many other players someone has attacked and the level difference and that could feed into a probability of being attacked by high level AI patrol vehicles.  If you want to gank new players, you can still do so, but you're going to have to run the gauntlet of Elite 1st rate patrol craft yourself then.  That would even it up a bit, and the high level gankers shouldn't mind since they think players being attacked by stronger opponents is okay.  They might even welcome the challenge.

4.  PvE carry over into PvP.  This one is more controversial and wouldn't work on its own, but in principle some mechanism to allow new players to gain experience and better ships on PvE, and then carry that over into PvP, would mean they don't have to be ganked from the start on the PvP.  You could level limit it if you don't want everyone waiting until they have a 1st rate before going to PvP, although I suspect someone people would go earlier anyway.

I think a combination of those would go a long way towards addressing the problem.

 

[Hethwill]

Game is multiplayer and clan based, in essence. Not different from other multiplayer, team based games. While it has the MMO sugar coat it is undeniable that is a quasi.simulation wargame. The arena is just VAST, and resources mechanics different.

As in many multiplayer simulation wargames you will have to play with others, sail, fly, march with them towards your immediate, and your long term objectives.

There are no specific scenarios other than the ones you and others setup. Be it in the War or the Peace servers.

On the War server, PvP will be when you want it and when others want it, no matter if you want it or if they want it. It is based on two things - OW chance encounters and provoked fleet actions; OW area blockades and Conquest mechanics.

Now, if you want to be part of it all you must accept multiplayer clan based wargame. If you simply want to embrace the joy of OW chance encounters solo is okay, just don't expect all the others that are here for the multiplayer clan based gameplay to be merciful.

And as a sidenote, what do you think a "newcomer" in a air combat sim feels when he is shot out of the blue without even noticing the bandit on his 6 ? POOF gone. What about your beautiful multicrew bomber being "ganked" by a squadron of bandits ? Is it a gank ? No. It is a interception and destruction of a enemy before it hits your own base or whatever. So...Try again. And again. And again... and learn. And when that said "newcomer" starts to understand why the veteran did this and that and snatches his first kill, a new world opens. NA is not so different from it.

Do not dismiss the willingness of any player in any game to learn, if the player really like the game, for its setting, for its mechanics, for its deliver of personal fun ( it is a hobby after all ).

And plenty of NA players have learned and pass knowledge everyday to others.

Now... if they are willing to learn or simply want to rush somewhere is another subject entirely.

There's no safety in a pvp multiplayer combat environment. The only safety is to sail with your buddies and kill the other guys before they kill you.

[Jim Beamreach]

25 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

And as a sidenote, what do you think a "newcomer" in a air combat sim feels when he is shot out of the blue without even noticing the bandit on his 6 ? POOF gone. What about your beautiful multicrew bomber being "ganked" by a squadron of bandits ? Is it a gank ? No. It is a interception and destruction of a enemy before it hits your own base or whatever. So...Try again. And again. And again... and learn. 

 

So but you can not compare NA with WarThunder or any other WarSim. 

In those Games you will lose only your aircraft/plane/tank and not 20h and more too gather ressources for 20 mins of fighting. In the other games you will earn XP and Money even if you are on the side of the loser. 

[Hethwill]

Any changes made to the game, in my personal view, that improve the combat simulator are welcome, as the MMO part is just a driving mechanic to lead into combat events.

You have a personal agenda and you aren't even paying attention to what everyone else is discussing.

God gave us two ears and just one mouth, so we hear twice as much as we talk.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Jim Beamreach said:

So but you can not compare NA with WarThunder or any other WarSim. 

That's not a sim, is a arena game. And I can. Is a combat wargame.

[Karvala]

27 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

<snip>

There are no specific scenarios other than the ones you and others setup. Be it in the War or the Peace servers.

<snip>

Now, if you want to be part of it all you must accept multiplayer clan based wargame. If you simply want to embrace the joy of OW chance encounters solo is okay, just don't expect all the others that are here for the multiplayer clan based gameplay to be merciful.

<snip>

Do not dismiss the willingness of any player in any game to learn, if the player really like the game, for its setting, for its mechanics, for its deliver of personal fun ( it is a hobby after all ).

<snip>

There's no safety in a pvp multiplayer combat environment. The only safety is to sail with your buddies and kill the other guys before they kill you.

Which amounts to: (a) the player market will take care of everything; (b) don't bother trying to play solo; (c) any type of ganking is okay.

If that's really your view, then fair enough. To me, that's a sadly limited vision of what the game could be; just gangs of vets attacking other gangs of vets, and everyone else long gone.

To be clear, people are not asking for safety, they are asking for a reasonably level playing field.  If the only way a new player can get any experience of decent equipment is by being protected by existing players, and otherwise is just food, then in my view something is wrong.  You might say that this is the way of team-based MMOs and why should it be any different here; I would ask does it actually work, or does it lead to players feeling demoralised and leaving because they have no way of developing in the game?

[Jim Beamreach]

@Hethwill

Than Name me a wargame where you have to gather ressources for hours/days. To build your Plane/Ship/Tank and have to regrind again from zero. 

Okay there is the insurance what will give us some Reals Back. But this is like a Drop of water on a hot stone.

In DCS i can take the same Plane over and over.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Jim Beamreach