Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
JG14_Cuzn

Mast Sniping

Recommended Posts

7 minutes ago, Sea Archer said:

Why should a mast fall when all stabilising rope are still in place?

because the mast itself can get damaged!!!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Captain2Strong said:

because the mast itself can get damaged!!!

Truth. A slightly damaged mast would snipe violently due to the incredibly high tension from the stabilizing stay and shroud riggings.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, van der Clam said:

Truth. A slightly damaged mast would snipe violently due to the incredibly high tension from the stabilizing stay and shroud riggings.

Usually you have the back stay, the fore stay and the shrouds. Due to the expected forces on the mast most of the shrouds are located behind the mast, even if their task is for stabilising the forces from the side.

Especially the lower sections of the masts are massively over dimensioned. 

The mast will usually break from the forces of the sails, when the stabilising cables are shot away. The mast itself would be quite difficult to hit in reality.

Therfore I would prefer to see shrouds and stays damaged than the mast. That would be closer to reality. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hitting the mast with a cannonball, at range and from an unstable gun platform (ship) without a rifled barrel or decent aiming mechanism seems nearly impossible to me....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

they never fought battles with full sails and rigging up anyway, so I think we can stop with the realism argument.

mast don't go down easy unless your a small ship /

letting people hit your masts time and time again without repairing because your avoiding broadside to broadside and some other stupid reason /

sitting depowered shooting each others masts until the one with better aim wins /

"sniping" only works if you let them "snipe"

never had a mast go down from sniping since release. except when I was using a surprise vs rattys

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*chuckles*

Given masts were (and are to this day) lost due to wind as well ( bad tacks, taken aback fully unfurled, so on and so forth ) aren't we getting a bit picky about realism ? I mean, so much talk about 1v1 but notable story was the Essex. Lost the battle before the first shot was fired because of... well... bad sail setting to the wind when it changed suddenly and poof, tops down and ihihihih no magic repairs ;) 

We are all right and all very wrong. There are engagements recorded that saw whole ships rigging devastated, can read about the HMS Quebec versus the Surveillante, but no occasion where a vessel didn't lose part of the rigging in a wrong move, sail setting and so forth during a failed tack or even making sternway with all canvas being blown back. Masts won't take it full sails.

So, can we move towards less gun accuracy/precision but also proper rigging damage in dangerous maneuvres ? That would be proper.

Very very proper.

 

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was a victim of this yesterday. Coming back after a few months hiatus and already losing the desire to play again. 

It was an engagement between my Rätt and an american Wasa. I sailed undercrewed but just thought, well let's try it and maybe have some fun. At least i gain experience. I already was a bit suspicious when from his first volley of his bow chasers from roughly 400 meters, 3 connected with my masts. But what followed after i got in close wasn't really fun. He single shotted his first two broadsides with the result, that his first took my foremast and the second took my mainmast. Well awesome. losing 2 masts in the first 2 minutes of the engagement. So I fired one last broadside into his side and surrendered (my first went into his rigging which resulted in a rigging shock, during which he cut my foremast). I don't even know what I could have done different.

Don't get me wrong. I admire his skill and don't want to talk bad about him or his victory. He learned and practiced what he did so he earned it. Fair enough. It simply wasn't fun.

I despise the mechanics around it. It shouldn't be possible to obtain this skill. My main gripe with the game: accuracy. I don't agree with the analogy of William Death, that I shouldn't think of it as sniping but more of skilled gun captains aiming for the rigging (on an up and down moving ship that makes 7-8 knots with full sails and during a turn ).

How can I accept that, when It is possible to adjust my horizontal and vertical aiming on the fly and even open fire any second during my traverse of the cannons? Why do we still accept, that our shots land where we were aiming at the moment we clicked and aren't influenced by the moving of the ship during the broadside. How is it an achiveable gameplay goal, that some can snipe masts from 150 or more meters? The masts should be tiny hitboxes from longer ranges but it seems that somehow balls always connect with them constantly as if they are guided in. Most of my unaimed and rushed stern or bow chaser snapshots (with chain) connect with a mast. Is there maybe something wrong with the hitboxes? Are they too big? I don't know cause if you follow a ball on his trajectory it always hits dead center.

Here I am, making a post about a recent loss and apparently whine about it. But my main concern is with the game.

I am all for linking mast strength/integrity to rigging damage (and wind force plus sail area) with suitable damage number adjustments, that are definitely needed then. I am even for giving the shrouds their own hitboxes and HP. But this sniping and accuracy has to go

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think i already suggested that ranging shots have greatly reduced damage, so they would be used as ranging shot, and not sniping shots...

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 8:53 AM, Cecil Selous said:

Here I am, making a post about a recent loss and apparently whine about it. But my main concern is with the game.

I agree with you completely.  The accuracy involved is ridiculous.  Happened to me with a very good sniper in an Indiaman.  An INDIAMAN!  Historically, it was lucky if their guns actually worked.  I know we aren't always concerned about historical accuracy, but c'mon...Take away single shot.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since realism, but also more importantly historical references are considered to be so important in the discussion of other game features and mechanics... I would say single shot sniping falls directly as one of the biggest offenders in breaking immersion and going against any historical reference. I would like to know if anyone can produce any reference to when a lineship fired it's guns in single shot to snipe away at any enemy ship. 

You should have to fire a whole broadside or 1 full deck of guns, nothing else. Tracking shots are okay but they should have a cooldown or do reduced damaged as someone else already suggested. 

If ball did rigging damage and chain also did rigging damage and some mast damage then more people might fire broadsides at masts like it was in history. I'm also of the probably unpopular opinion that a lost mast should stay lost during battle but some things would have to be changed for that to work. Starting with single shot sniping. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think mast sniping is ok as is. Gun precision is way higher in game than it was historically. But I can live with that, because I understand that as a compromise between the damage model that we have (demasting by hitting very narrow mast hit box) versus a more realistic one (shrouds, spreaders, stay hit boxes present larger relevant damage areas). So, we have only small damage hit boxes, but to make this "feel" realistic, the gun accuracy needs to be higher. In the end, the result feels ok. 

I find other things more disturbing when it comes to realism. Just a few examples:

  • Insanely overpowered privateer fleets
  • Timer based speed boosts 
  • Loki runes
  • A shed building requiring a permit, while shipyard or academy does not. I mean, seriously. A shed? Requiring a permit? 
  • Privateers dropping building permits. 
  • Insanely high port bonuses
  • Circles and points in port battles
  • Naval clock giving speed bonus
  • Rum resurrecting the dead
  • Insane amount of repairs
  • Battles taking place in a parallel universe
  • Instant teleports and tows
  • Getting paid for sinking ships. I mean, who would do that? Prize money is an issue. But to get it, you'd need to bring the prize home and not sink it. 

I could go on, but leave it at that for the moment. Seriously, the damage model is the smallest issue. It's actually one of the best parts of the game. Leave it alone, please. The risk is that the only developer working on the game works on a new damage model for 2 or 3 months while there are many other things that need urgent fixing. 

Edited by van Veen
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Never said:

I would like to know if anyone can produce any reference to when a lineship fired it's guns in single shot to snipe away at any enemy ship. 

You should have to fire a whole broadside or 1 full deck of guns, nothing else. Tracking shots are okay but they should have a cooldown or do reduced damaged as someone else already suggested. 

No...they didn't fire them "single-shot" one at a time to hit a mast and take it down. 

On ship firing 50 broadside guns, 50 gun captains would point each individual cannon at the rigging. 50 gun captains would fire each individual cannon. One, by one, by one. In a rolling line down the length of the vessel.


I don't have 50 gun captains aboard my ship that I can tell to shoot rigging (not that shooting the rigging does mast damage in NA).

I have a computer that attempts to guess where I want to put the cannonballs if I click-fire the whole broadside. It doesn't work very well most of the time.

Or I can be the gun captain and point each and every one of those 50 cannons myself, aiming and firing them into the masts of the enemy (since we don't have rigging hitboxes). 

I choose to use the mechanic which most closely represents a gun captain pointing his cannon. And that happens to be single-shotting the broadside.

 

Implement proper rigging damage that is tied to variable wind strength, remove mast repairs, increase penetration values for all guns, decrease mast thickness to almost zero (because pine masts don't bounce much), and decrease accuracy a bunch if you want historical accuracy. But it won't be fun to play that when the majority of your cannonballs miss, and then most battles are decided with a few broadsides that do hit.

 

 

And that last point is just silly. How can you simultaneously ask for realism and also ask for limitation on how fast you can fire the cannons, or make firing a single cannonball do less damage? 

As much as I dislike the current damage model, demasting isn't an issue right now.  You can very easily run enough mods to make your masts invulnerable. You can regrow your masts with magical repairs every 12 minutes. 

I agree with @van Veen, there are plenty more pressing issues to address before we look at yet another damage model which will introduce a whole new set of bugs and exploits and shift the meta balance again.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, William Death said:

No...they didn't fire them "single-shot" one at a time to hit a mast and take it down. 

 

They could and did. There are references describing 1 gold guinea prizes to gun captains who were able to take off mast by a single shot.
Single shots just do not fit YOUR mental pattern. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, admin said:

They could and did. There are references describing 1 gold guinea prizes to gun captains who were able to take off mast by a single shot.
Single shots just do not fit YOUR mental pattern. 

maybe having dynamic roll effect during the broadside? as its now you can heel 15 degree angle >aim > fire full broadside > the last shot will still be heading towards the same spot where you aimed even though you end up at 0 degree angle 1 sec after the broadside. Its ok when you're turning the aim follows the turn.

Pic for reference: image.png.01c28857bd57d538ce051ea384200cd9.png

Edited by erelkivtuadrater
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, admin said:

They could and did. There are references describing 1 gold guinea prizes to gun captains who were able to take off mast by a single shot.
Single shots just do not fit YOUR mental pattern. 

Did you read the rest of my post?

I'm not at all against single-shot demasting. I was making a point that it is the closest representation we have to a gun captain aiming a gun. We become the gun captain. 

But the ship wasn't firing one gun, waiting a while, firing another, etc. Not if I understand the way gun crews worked. You'd have each gun pointed by a gun captain. Several guns overseen by an officer/midshipman and they'd all fire one right after the other, in a rolling line down the side of the ship. Right?

 

We don't quite have that in game, since we are aiming the cannons ourselves. It takes longer and gives the "pew....pew....pew....*crew cheers as mast falls*" that so many people seem to hate and call unrealistic. I am not one of those people.

 

I wasn't arguing *against* the mechanics we have in the game. I was arguing for them. Pointing out the logic behind why single-shot mast sniping is ok.

But thank you for the reply. :) 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, van Veen said:

I think mast sniping is ok as is. Gun precision is way higher in game than it was historically. But I can live with that, because I understand that as a compromise between the damage model that we have (demasting by hitting very narrow mast hit box) versus a more realistic one (shrouds, spreaders, stay hit boxes present larger relevant damage areas). So, we have only small damage hit boxes, but to make this "feel" realistic, the gun accuracy needs to be higher. In the end, the result feels ok. 

I find other things more disturbing when it comes to realism. Just a few examples:

  • Insanely overpowered privateer fleets
  • Timer based speed boosts 
  • Loki runes
  • A shed building requiring a permit, while shipyard or academy does not. I mean, seriously. A shed? Requiring a permit? 
  • Privateers dropping building permits. 
  • Insanely high port bonuses
  • Circles and points in port battles
  • Naval clock giving speed bonus
  • Rum resurrecting the dead
  • Insane amount of repairs
  • Battles taking place in a parallel universe
  • Instant teleports and tows
  • Getting paid for sinking ships. I mean, who would do that? Prize money is an issue. But to get it, you'd need to bring the prize home and not sink it. 

I could go on, but leave it at that for the moment. Seriously, the damage model is the smallest issue. It's actually one of the best parts of the game. Leave it alone, please. The risk is that the only developer working on the game works on a new damage model for 2 or 3 months while there are many other things that need urgent fixing. 

True, but then I hate/dislike most of these things too lol

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, William Death said:

And that last point is just silly. How can you simultaneously ask for realism and also ask for limitation on how fast you can fire the cannons, or make firing a single cannonball do less damage? 

As much as I dislike the current damage model, demasting isn't an issue right now.  You can very easily run enough mods to make your masts invulnerable. You can regrow your masts with magical repairs every 12 minutes. 

I agree with @van Veen, there are plenty more pressing issues to address before we look at yet another damage model which will introduce a whole new set of bugs and exploits and shift the meta balance again.

Because when you don't have a simulation or want to preserve something for the sake of gameplay or quality of life, you have to compromise. But of course it depends on personal preference which part is realistic and which part is compromise. I don't know if I would refer to demasting with single shot sniping as a major issue, but I just never liked it. 

Implement proper rigging damage that is tied to variable wind strength, remove mast repairs, increase penetration values for all guns, decrease mast thickness to almost zero (because pine masts don't bounce much), and decrease accuracy a bunch if you want historical accuracy. But it won't be fun to play that when the majority of your cannonballs miss, and then most battles are decided with a few broadsides that do hit.

I understand I might in the minority but I would like all the above things you mentioned. 

Edited by Never
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Never said:

Implement proper rigging damage that is tied to variable wind strength, remove mast repairs, increase penetration values for all guns, decrease mast thickness to almost zero (because pine masts don't bounce much), and decrease accuracy a bunch if you want historical accuracy. But it won't be fun to play that when the majority of your cannonballs miss, and then most battles are decided with a few broadsides that do hit.

Historical demasting was not that bad.
It is just all the previous games were doing sailing models SO WRONG, and such sailing models got stuck in players minds as canon - we being active players of all sailing games were also affected in the beginning. We started fixing it by adding proper backing force (ships could sail backwards very well) and even got complaints for it initially.

Same with demasting. Being de-masted was not that bad. 
One thing that will  definitely come to NA, is the hull wind effect (out of many many interesting things planned for the next games).
Did you know that a 1st rate 3 decker could drift up at 2-4 knots without ANY mast. Just because of the hull acting as sail?
It will help with looting and will help when being de-masted. 

Top secret battle sails fix (if it happens) could drastically change the rig damage model and ship demasted state. We really wanted to do it but now now worry as it might change gameplay so much that veterans will complain for changing the game and will review bomb us. But it will definitely come into next game and will connect all dots together allowing to remove unrealistic demasting.

 

Thinking about demasting more....

The interesting thing is that if demasting is easy for everyone (historical - where you just need 1-2 cannonballs hit) it will remove the gap between vets and noobs and more importantly between ships.

Coupled with reduction of accuracy and fix of battle sails and hull speed it could work wonders for the combat model

 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, admin said:

Historical demasting was not that bad.
It is just all the previous games were doing sailing models SO WRONG, and such sailing models got stuck in players minds as canon - we being active players of all sailing games were also affected in the beginning. We started fixing it by adding proper backing force (ships could sail backwards very well) and even got complaints for it initially.

Same with demasting. Being de-masted was not that bad. 
One thing that will  definitely come to NA, is the hull wind effect (out of many many interesting things planned for the next games).
Did you know that a 1st rate 3 decker could drift up at 2-4 knots without ANY mast. Just because of the hull acting as sail?
It will help with looting and will help when being de-masted. 

Top secret battle sails fix (if it happens) could drastically change the rig damage model and ship demasted state. We really wanted to do it but now now worry as it might change gameplay so much that veterans will complain for changing the game and will review bomb us. But it will definitely come into next game and will connect all dots together allowing to remove unrealistic demasting.

 

Thinking about demasting more....

The interesting thing is that if demasting is easy for everyone (historical - where you just need 1-2 cannonballs hit) it will remove the gap between vets and noobs and more importantly between ships.

Coupled with reduction of accuracy and fix of battle sails and hull speed it could work wonders for the combat model

 

I think it would it amazing to have such things in the combat model. I hope that we can see that in NA, if not possible then in a future game. 

I love this, it's very interesting. Thank you for sharing this info @admin:D

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, admin said:

it will remove the gap between vets and noobs and more importantly between ships.

No it won't. Veterans should be sailing with gunnery 4 + 1 or 2 penetration mod (french gunners, guacata superior or others), if they want demasting, and they will demast the newbie.

I am all okay with broadside demasting but demasting with ranging shots because captain would pay 1 gold guina (nice support for this nonsense).

 

IN THIS GAME THE CAPTAIN WOULD BE BROKE !

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, admin said:

They could and did. There are references describing 1 gold guinea prizes to gun captains who were able to take off mast by a single shot.
Single shots just do not fit YOUR mental pattern. 

Hitting a mast is an accomplishment when you're doing it by eye, with no stabilization of any kind.
Hitting a mast is easy in NA because guns are a century more advanced in their accuracy than IRL.
If there was no stabilization or aim assist, we'd be much closer to historically accurate :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, admin said:

Top secret battle sails fix (if it happens) could drastically change the rig damage model and ship demasted state. We really wanted to do it but now now worry as it might change gameplay so much that veterans will complain for changing the game and will review bomb us. But it will definitely come into next game and will connect all dots together allowing to remove unrealistic demasting.

Invite 10 Veteran players for the Testbed and figure it out? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, admin said:

 

Noone will know if we like it or not if you dont either leak information to the public or show it on servers.

Demasting was not that bad realisticly aswell because they could still shoot and did not have "weak HP sides" we have ingame atm.

 

Also, when changing this stuff also think about new players fighting AI and not only about vets.

Edited by rediii
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, admin said:

Thinking about demasting more....

The interesting thing is that if demasting is easy for everyone (historical - where you just need 1-2 cannonballs hit) it will remove the gap between vets and noobs and more importantly between ships.

Coupled with reduction of accuracy and fix of battle sails and hull speed it could work wonders for the combat model

 

I always liked the idea to completely turn away from HP and health bars in general and just take accurate penetration and thickness values. combine it with a more sophisticated and complex hitbox system (crew, cannons, structural elements, masts, yards, shrouds, spars ...), more actual sailing, throw less accurate cannons (affected by roll, pitch etc etc) in the mix and it all comes down to proper positioning and sail handling while also leveling the playing field a bit.

But I also agree, that it is too late to implement or test this in naval action without completely changing everything and thus maybe doing more harm then good.

But as you always hint at next games. Making suggestions and giving you ideas to think about in the future isn't a bad thing ;) 

 

5 hours ago, rediii said:

Noone will know if we like it or not if you dont either leak information to the public or show it on servers.

I agree too. Tell us about your ideas without making it a definite decision. Just a view into your minds where a healthy discussion could develop. Like: we had this idea .... tell us what you think etc. I know you do that already but we often had a situation, where you already made the decision to implement things and discussed it afterwards. Of course that's your right as the developer. This is your baby and you have a certain vision how this game should be. I still would like to read more about some of your ideas. whether they are good or not :) 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think an interesting mechanic would be to have a system  where if your mast hits a certain damage threshold WHILE it's at a certain sail percentage, you loose the mast.  IE, if my mast gets hit and is reduced to 75% of it's HP and I am at 100% sail, then I lose the mast.  However, if I was at 80% sail power or lower, I would keep the mast.  However, if I go to 100% and my mast has less than 75% HP I would lose the mast.  Implement a system like StaleMeme's post from August 16th so that we as players can judge what sail power we should be at.

Example undamaged:

2025155066_NAMastExampleundamaged.png.5339471b82a1e70edbecc00ce4b2a0a3.png

Example heavily damaged main mast.:

504723327_NAmastexampledamaged.png.b957f8c959ea8b581a5485a5bdb72a86.png

 

This would make it so that hitting a mast still is valuable for combat (forces your opponent to lower their sail power) all while adding a skill based system (being able to judge the damage your taking as well as analyzing enemy firing habits) to those on the receiving end.  It would also make lowering your sail power something you would want to do, because as it stands there is almost no reason to lower your sails since you can just slow down by back winding or manage your speed by intentionally managing them poorly.

 

It would also reduce mast sniping since you could just react by lowering your sails and repair the damage later, and incentivize firing broadsides in order to catch the enemy by surprise.

 

Final thought: Damaged masts can be repaired, but if you lose it, you can't bring it back.  That way you have an incentive to bring down your sails.

Edited by JDMonster
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...