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Connie/United States

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I still have not figured out why the devs have made the connie/uss a 3rd. it is far inferior to every 3rd rate except for side armor, slower (which it shouldn't be, it is historically a fast ship) Turns worse (a frigate...) and has by far the smallest broadside and crew. It is insulting, to say the least. It was historically a 4th rate, and it should be considering even 4th rates out broadside it (cannons) and have larger crews! Even the new 4th rate the leopard beats it out in everything except side armor. You took a great ships devs and shat all over it. Makes no sense that its a third rate, nor does it make any sense you need a bigger ship yard to make it than an aggy, wapen or ingermanland (all bigger ships).

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I believe admins justification was ship tonnage. Please ignore the fact the 4th rate wappen is heavier then the 2nd rate pavel and takes its bow yet has less armor. Clearly Russian bias against the wappen.

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Ship tonnage is the justification for her HP, in fact she would fit rated as a 3th rate if she was made more agile, her turn rate is shamefull. Now she is like the 3rd rate with less crew & less firepower.. 

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11 minutes ago, Immersive Ganking said:

Constitution was never a 4th rate. It was a completly new ship type that could not really be classified aside from number of guns.

She was good at what she did - ganking ships of half her size but that's it really. There was a reaons admirality have the captains order to stay from lineships.

She was a 4th rate, simple as. There's really no reason to classify her as anything else. She wasn't however a completely new style of ship, super frigates were born in 1724 and 24lb frigates were first conceived in 1782.

You can talk to death about her as a vessel but whether you think she more resembles leopard style 50 gunners, which really she does, or if you are under the illusion she is some kind of groundbreaking frigate design, which as much as the fan-fair like to pretend her to be she really isn't. She is still either a 4th rate 50 gun ship or a 4th rate heavy frigate.

She should be a 4th rate.

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7 minutes ago, Aster said:

I believe admins justification was ship tonnage. Please ignore the fact the 4th rate wappen is heavier then the 2nd rate pavel and takes its bow yet has less armor. Clearly Russian bias against the wappen.

Pavel was a much heaver ship than the Wappen. It was made to carry very heavy guns and their necessary crew of hundreds of men on at least two decks (24s+36s) and came out of the gate with 18pdr on the weatherdecks. The Wappen was made to look impressive as an escort but only carried a wild mixture of different small to medium sized guns (18's being the biggest pieces on her) and was built with draft constraints on her predecessor of the same name in mind. Wappen was never meant to fight, Pavel was.

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36 minutes ago, Snoopy said:

Pavel was a much heaver ship than the Wappen. It was made to carry very heavy guns and their necessary crew of hundreds of men on at least two decks (24s+36s) and came out of the gate with 18pdr on the weatherdecks. The Wappen was made to look impressive as an escort but only carried a wild mixture of different small to medium sized guns (18's being the biggest pieces on her) and was built with draft constraints on her predecessor of the same name in mind. Wappen was never meant to fight, Pavel was.

I am under the impression that the mass of a ship is what determines who takes whos bow. The wappen takes the pavels bow.

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1 hour ago, sindraina said:

I still have not figured out why the devs have made the connie/uss a 3rd. it is far inferior to every 3rd rate except for side armor, slower (which it shouldn't be, it is historically a fast ship) Turns worse (a frigate...) and has by far the smallest broadside and crew. It is insulting, to say the least. It was historically a 4th rate, and it should be considering even 4th rates out broadside it (cannons) and have larger crews! Even the new 4th rate the leopard beats it out in everything except side armor. You took a great ships devs and shat all over it. Makes no sense that its a third rate, nor does it make any sense you need a bigger ship yard to make it than an aggy, wapen or ingermanland (all bigger ships).

I don't disagree about her ingame rating being lowered for the reason you state but i'd argue it only on in-game terms.

It's a stretch to say 'historically she was x'. She wasn't, because the US Navy at the time didn't have such a rating system. She was built into a void of classification with a very sneaky idea in mind 'well, technically, it's correct to say it's only a 50 gun single gun deck ship, no threat at all, please don't mind the fact it has this berth deck that no other Frigate has and it sits a storey higher than the 50gun Frigates from other navies for that reason, its completely harmless, I swear, please ignore the fact it's hull is actually as high as this 74 gun two decker you have, oh and our ship is slightly heavier than the 74, too, that's just all the provisions and sturdy sailors, surely, we also made it the same thickness totally by accident, pinky swear ^^  (and we didn't tell anyone we made it from frikkin Live Oak shhh)'. "She was made to gank ships half her size" (and run away from bigger boys) is such a good description. 

This deception worked internally as well. When Constellation captured the French Insurgente they were eager to biggen themselves up, after all Constellation only had 36 guns to the Insurgente's 40, never mind the fact she carried 24pound guns vs the Insurgente's 18s... and the crew was paid more prizemoney than they would have for their 'heroics'.. even though most could see through this.

That's why itll be pretty difficult placing the ships into the NA rating system. As a 4th rate she'd have a massive hp advantage over the other ships in that rating as it currently stands. Nerfing this would do the real ship injustice so.. it'll never be satisfactory one way or another.

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1 minute ago, Aster said:

I am under the impression that the mass of a ship is what determines who takes whos bow. The wappen takes the pavels bow.

Candidate for bug fix imho.

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7 minutes ago, Aster said:

I am under the impression that the mass of a ship is what determines who takes whos bow. The wappen takes the pavels bow.

nah

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Constitution/uss united states are the 2 faster ship of the 3rd classe , and got the 2nd best hull armor of the rank.(only bellona better)

With the 24 pd and 42 pd , the ship got more dmg than the rattvisan and the aga.

With this states , the consti can easily fight Wasa.

 

So yes the Consti/Uss have is place in the 3rd classe , 

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7 minutes ago, Lt Sekiro said:

Constitution/uss united states are the 2 faster ship of the 3rd classe , and got the 2nd best hull armor of the rank.(only bellona better)

With the 24 pd and 42 pd , the ship got more dmg than the rattvisan and the aga.

With this states , the consti can easily fight Wasa.

 

So yes the Consti/Uss have is place in the 3rd classe , 

No that's not how anything works.

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So, from a game perspective:

Why "should" the Connie/USS be moved to the 4th rate category? I mean, what is wrong with it being a 3rd rate in the game?

Why do we not have this same outrage for the indefatigable being a 4th, when it is a 5th rate?

Why are we upset with a number?

 

 

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1 minute ago, Teutonic said:

So, from a game perspective:

Why "should" the Connie/USS be moved to the 4th rate category? I mean, what is wrong with it being a 3rd rate in the game?

Why do we not have this same outrage for the indefatigable being a 4th, when it is a 5th rate?

Why are we upset with a number?

 

 

Patrol probleme.

If you back up consti/uss in 4th , they have access to la mona and léogane 4th patrole.

And when you see consti got 15k hp , and aga got 10k , you see the probleme

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45 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

So, from a game perspective:

Why "should" the Connie/USS be moved to the 4th rate category? I mean, what is wrong with it being a 3rd rate in the game?

Why do we not have this same outrage for the indefatigable being a 4th, when it is a 5th rate?

Why are we upset with a number?

 

 

Because there is no effective difference between a 5th to a 4th rate in game terms. It takes the same shipyard tier and gets the same mods/books. A 3rd rate needs a higher tier shipyard and gets generally weaker buffs. So people especially thoughs who like the connie are upset that they took what was already barely a 4th rate in game in fighting ability gave it a bit more health (which does little to actually make it better) and then made it a 3rd giving it worse mods. Secondly a 42 carronade does about the same damage as a 24 medium gun. The wasa has far more fire power. The Connie as has been said many times is to slow to under gunned and to under crewed to see any use. It has no redeeming quality to give it a role in game past role play. 

Same reason you never see a pavel except the pavel is still a pretty large ship so it could be useful in some sense.

Edited by Aster
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2 hours ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

She was a 4th rate, simple as. There's really no reason to classify her as anything else. She wasn't however a completely new style of ship, super frigates were born in 1724 and 24lb frigates were first conceived in 1782.

You can talk to death about her as a vessel but whether you think she more resembles leopard style 50 gunners, which really she does, or if you are under the illusion she is some kind of groundbreaking frigate design, which as much as the fan-fair like to pretend her to be she really isn't. She is still either a 4th rate 50 gun ship or a 4th rate heavy frigate.

She should be a 4th rate.

Fluffy I don't disagree with your assessment amazingly enough, but to be fair she did have some unique, or unusual if you prefer,  design elements. Diagonal riders, framing spaced more closely than normal which gave her hull additional strength and prevented hogging for example. The mission she was designed for was also different than those earlier ships you mention in particular in the first half of the 18th century. Frankly at one time there were two decked "frigates".  

The US 44s were designed to fight anything equal or smaller and run from anything larger which primarily meant British 64s and 74s. So here we have her in game classed with 74s a ship class that she was never meant to fight.  People have mentioned the disadvantages already, also the modules category shifts to 1-3 the most expensive. 

In the end I agree - 4th rate is best fit.

 

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