Greatest Admiral's

[Rob]

How can you possible think that? We haven't been at war for 200years...

But during the 1500-1814 we where at war for a bit more than 50 years in total. With huge changes of borders, much plundering and forced change of cultures that  border ethnic cleansing.

(yes the Brits and French fought a lot... but their wars haven't in the same way effected borders for the "mother countries" but mostly colonies)

 

If the Kalmar union had not been broken by the evil Swedes the union could have ended up as one of the European great powers.

(to be fair, they had pretty good reasons for the rebellion)

 

But in the mid 19th century there where a few times where the two might have merged in one Scandinavian country in a peaceful way and a number of Swedish volunteers fought for Denmark in the two Sleswig wars. (1848-1850 and in 1864)

 

So I actually think we should join forces and hate the Dutch... since they supported one.. then the other and even changed sides during the same war... in a very well played game to make sure none of the two won a complete victory and removed the other from the map.

Yeah that was kinda an asshole move, you know the real reason was money. We wanted to control all trade in the baltic sea and at the same time neutralize the English trade there. So we had to help either the Swedish or the Danes, and we had to help either one more than the English. Because if we where to "solve" the conflict there we would get trade priority. The Dutch are kinda known for the East India Company, but the Baltic trade was 100 times more important. We relied on the Baltic trade mostly for wood and food, if we lost that trade our country would collapse.

 

If you study Dutch history you become kinda proud of our little nation, we held off the English, French and the multiple attacks of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Münster and at the same time destroy alliances everywhere necessary in western europe. Divide and Conquer!

[Ryga]

Again I add admirals as they are suggested, don't look at me if you miss one ^^. 

[Kontreadmiral]

You should remove Cornelius Tromp. The only battle he ever won was the Battle of Öland - And he only won because of Niels Juel.

Cornelius Tromp was the head of the Danish Navy for a short period of time, yes. But he was hated, he even accused Niels Juel of cowardice.

 

Niels Juel was a great, if not the greatest admiral of all time. Cornelius Tromp was nothing special.

[Rob]

You should remove Cornelius Tromp. The only battle he ever won was the Battle of Öland - And he only won because of Niels Juel.

Cornelius Tromp was the head of the Danish Navy for a short period of time, yes. But he was hated, he even accused Niels Juel of cowardice.

 

Niels Juel was a great, if not the greatest admiral of all time. Cornelius Tromp was nothing special.

I shall look into that, maybe your right.. lets see

[Ryga]

Delete Cornelis Tromp? All agreed? 

 

Btw. so there was this huge/long war with Denmark against Sweden but there was not a single good Swedish admiral?

[Balck]

If you've ever played Europa Universalis 1 or 2 you have all of your admirals at the ready  All of the historical leaders were noteworthy.  

[Kontreadmiral]

Delete Cornelis Tromp? All agreed? 

 

Btw. so there was this huge/long war with Denmark against Sweden but there was not a single good Swedish admiral?

There were lots of wars, not just one long war.

 

And no, there was really no great Swedish admiral. The Swedish Navy has always been a bit.... mediocre, to put it nicely. The Danish Navy always defeated the Swedish Navy(Well, except for the Battle of Fehmarn in 1644, but that was more a Dutch victory than a Swedish one).

[Herminator]

Important fact... That some of those "Danish" admirals are Norwegians, since the country then were called "Dano-Norway". Norway were a part of an alliance with Denmark for a while then Sweden. Tordenskiold and Iver Huitfeldt is in fact Norwegian

We were actually called the "twin-kingdoms", or the "Dano-Norwegian" kingdom, and was a part of an alliance with Denmark for 434years between 1380-1814. This period is in Norwegian referred to as "the 400 year night".

 

The most famous ship the "Dano-Norwegian" fleet had during this era, must have been the "Tre Kroner"(Three Crowns).   

 

Since the Kalmarunion (when Sweden + Denmark-Norway was united since Margarete I, in the 1400:s) fell apart when Gustav Eriksson Vasa became king of Sweden in the 1520-ies, Denmark and Sweden had quarrelled and even had a war about who had the right to have the golden three crowns (tre kronor/tre kroner) on blue background as the national coat of arms. To give a ship the name of this controversial heraldic symbol, was a political action that both Swedes and Danes practised.
The Danish ship tre Kronor (three crowns) was built in Flensburg (in todays Germany) by the Scotsman David Balfour. It was Christian IV finest ship and it was said to be decorated with gold and precious stones. A engraving from 1606 is maybe this ship. It was armed with 72 bronze-cannons. On the engraving you can see cannons also in the tops. You can see other interesting things in the engraving: The gallery has the Danish coat of arms. Above and below it, it has balconies. And on the sides it have small towers (turrets), which decorated with marine-paintings (of ships etc) and small balconies. You can also se that the rails are covered with red and white cloth with the king``s name-symbol (a C with a 4 inside). The 4th little mast behind the mizzenmast, is called bonaventura mast and was common on the 16th century ships, but disappeared in the beginning of the 1600. It is the first ship picture with a spritsail-topsail (originally a flag pole) far out on the bowsprit. It appeared in the beginning o the 1600 and disappeared in the end of the century. On almost all pictures from that time, the sail is belayed. So it had no other function, than being decorative.
The Danish historian Probst mean that Tre Kronor was the ship that was a "model" for the British ship Prins Royal. If you compare the original drawing of Tre Kroner with the original drawing of Prince Royal, the similarities are obvious.

 

It was one of the largest ship ever built back then and had a deplacement of maybe 2100t and a crew of approx 600men.

It was said that in 1606 King Kristian IV went to England to visit his brother in law, Jakob I, and when sailing "Tre Kroner" up the Thames, people were incredibly impressed by the ship. The two kings decided to host great parties onboard the two flagships placed side by side during that hot summer. They even built a bridge between the two flagships. The English King Jakob I, was so impressed by the "Tre Kroner", that he ordered a simular ship. Since no English shipbuilder ever had tried to build such a large ship before, the job ended up in the hands of the not so experienced shipbuilder Phineas Pett, and to speed up the process he copied the "Tre Kroner". The result being "Prince Royal". The "Prince Royal" was launched in 1610, and is seen upon as the start of the "Ship of the line" era.

[Kontreadmiral]

Important fact... That some of those "Danish" admirals are Norwegians, since the country then were called "Dano-Norway". Norway were a part of an alliance with Denmark for a while then Sweden. Tordenskiold and Iver Huitfeldt is in fact Norwegian

We were actually called the "twin-kingdoms", or the "Dano-Norwegian" kingdom, and was a part of an alliance with Denmark for 434years between 1380-1814. This period is in Norwegian referred to as "the 400 year night".

 

The most famous ship the "Dano-Norwegian" fleet had during this era, must have been the "Tre Kroner"(Three Crowns).   

 

Since the Kalmarunion (when Sweden + Denmark-Norway was united since Margarete I, in the 1400:s) fell apart when Gustav Eriksson Vasa became king of Sweden in the 1520-ies, Denmark and Sweden had quarrelled and even had a war about who had the right to have the golden three crowns (tre kronor/tre kroner) on blue background as the national coat of arms. To give a ship the name of this controversial heraldic symbol, was a political action that both Swedes and Danes practised.

The Danish ship tre Kronor (three crowns) was built in Flensburg (in todays Germany) by the Scotsman David Balfour. It was Christian IV finest ship and it was said to be decorated with gold and precious stones. A engraving from 1606 is maybe this ship. It was armed with 72 bronze-cannons. On the engraving you can see cannons also in the tops. You can see other interesting things in the engraving: The gallery has the Danish coat of arms. Above and below it, it has balconies. And on the sides it have small towers (turrets), which decorated with marine-paintings (of ships etc) and small balconies. You can also se that the rails are covered with red and white cloth with the king``s name-symbol (a C with a 4 inside). The 4th little mast behind the mizzenmast, is called bonaventura mast and was common on the 16th century ships, but disappeared in the beginning of the 1600. It is the first ship picture with a spritsail-topsail (originally a flag pole) far out on the bowsprit. It appeared in the beginning o the 1600 and disappeared in the end of the century. On almost all pictures from that time, the sail is belayed. So it had no other function, than being decorative.

The Danish historian Probst mean that Tre Kronor was the ship that was a "model" for the British ship Prins Royal. If you compare the original drawing of Tre Kroner with the original drawing of Prince Royal, the similarities are obvious.

 

It was one of the largest ship ever built back then and had a deplacement of maybe 2100t and a crew of approx 600men.

It was said that in 1606 King Kristian IV went to England to visit his brother in law, Jakob I, and when sailing "Tre Kroner" up the Thames, people were incredibly impressed by the ship. The two kings decided to host great parties onboard the two flagships placed side by side during that hot summer. They even built a bridge between the two flagships. The English King Jakob I, was so impressed by the "Tre Kroner", that he ordered a simular ship. Since no English shipbuilder ever had tried to build such a large ship before, the job ended up in the hands of the not so experienced shipbuilder Phineas Pett, and to speed up the process he copied the "Tre Kroner". The result being "Prince Royal". The "Prince Royal" was launched in 1610, and is seen upon as the start of the "Ship of the line" era.

Well, they may have been born in what is today Norway - But they spoke Danish, and they identified as Danes. The Norwegian nationality didn't really exist until the 1820's.

 

As for Tre Kronor being our most famous ship, I would argue that it was the ship "Trefoldigheden" - Christian IV's flagship during the Battle of Kolberger Heide.

[thomas aagaard]

I would Say the steam frigate Jylland...For the simple reason that it still exist.  but that is naturally after our period.

[Ryga]

May I remind you all that we are talking about admirals and not ships ;P

[Hethwill]

Most illustrious admiral under Portugal crown at the NA time frame is actually the second in command of the Mediterranean Fleet, from 1788 until 1800 serving mainly under John Jervis, and Nelson, the 7th Marquis of Niza, Admiral Domingos Xavier de Lima Pinto Guedes.

 

He was present at Aboukir at the Alexandria blockade battle.

 

His command ship was the most powerful of the portuguese royal navy, a 90 gun ship of the line 'Príncipe Real' ( was registered as a '80 but was at a point equipped with 100 ).

 

One of his major feats was to come to the aid of Malta and ensure it remained independent ( and obviously allied to the anti-Revolution powers ).

 

Died in 1802 at 37.

[Swarls Barkley]

You should remove Cornelius Tromp. The only battle he ever won was the Battle of Öland - And he only won because of Niels Juel.

Cornelius Tromp was the head of the Danish Navy for a short period of time, yes. But he was hated, he even accused Niels Juel of cowardice.

 

Niels Juel was a great, if not the greatest admiral of all time. Cornelius Tromp was nothing special.

 

You do realize where Niels learned the ways of the sea and naval tactics? Without the teachings under de Ruyter en Tromp (father) Niels would be as bad as the Swedish admirals...

[Herminator]

Well, they may have been born in what is today Norway - But they spoke Danish, and they identified as Danes. The Norwegian nationality didn't really exist until the 1820's.

 

As for Tre Kronor being our most famous ship, I would argue that it was the ship "Trefoldigheden" - Christian IV's flagship during the Battle of Kolberger Heide.

 

The first written language in Norway was Danish, that is correct, but never the less they are considered Norwegians. The most used written language in Norway today is in fact a combination of Norwegian and Danish called Bokmål That the Norwegian nationality did not exist until the 1820's is bullocks... Norway had it's pride in the period between 800-1100. Even the word Viking, means "En person fra Viken", or in english, "a person from the bay", referring to Viken in the Oslo fjord.

When I say that "Tre Kronor" was the most famous ship, I ment by her era. The influence she had upon other nations when she was in service is undisputed. She showed the way for how they would build ships in other countries later on.

However, she never saw any battle so she don't have much of a service record. If you look upon ships that served in battle she don't have any she cannot contest. But she was such an amazing ship of her time that even England tried to copy her.

 

 

When it comes to Tordenskiold, the Royal Norwegian Navy has called it training and educational centre after him. KNM Tordenskiold is based at Norways main naval base at Haakonsvern in Bergen.

 

[Thundershield]

 

That some of those "Danish" admirals are Norwegians, since the country then were called "Dano-Norway". Norway were a part of an alliance with Denmark for a while then Sweden. Tordenskiold and Iver Huitfeldt is in fact Norwegian

 

Neither were Admirals however. They were heroes in my opinion though.

 

I think It's important for us two nations not to get caught up in "who was who" with these matters though. For the entire period in which this game is set, Denmark and Norway were essentially one Kingdom (Denmark-Norway is the correct name when referring to the union).

I've mentioned a few times before, and will continue to remind the developers that the in game representation of Denmark in NA, which is confirmed to be included, should be named Denmark-Norway to reflect the fact that for over 400 years, our two Kingdoms were basically one.

 

To the best of my knowledge, concerning how many Norwegians were Officers, who were sailors etc. The majority of sailors during the union were in fact Norwegian. But the majority of the Officers were Danish.

 

 

The first written language in Norway was Danish, that is correct, but never the less they are considered Norwegians. The most used written language in Norway today is in fact a combination of Norwegian and Danish called Bokmål

 

I've actually heard that modern Norwegian more closely resembles Old Danish, linguistically. While Icelandic more closely resembles Old Norwegian. Food for thought.

 

 

Even the word Viking, means "En person fra Viken", or in english, "a person from the bay", referring to Viken in the Oslo fjord.

 

I'm sorry, but there's simply no part of word Viking that refers specifically to the Viken. You're right in that vik means bay, however the etymology of the word Viking is disputed, and most theories offer different definitions than that the word refers specifically to a part of Norway.

 

 

When it comes to Tordenskiold, the Royal Norwegian Navy has called it training and educational centre after him. KNM Tordenskiold is based at Norways main naval base at Haakonsvern in Bergen.

 

That's great, and the Royal Danish Navy have had several ships named after him as well. He's considered a shared legacy between our two countries these days. At the Danish Naval Musuem, they're currently running an exhibition about the Dano-Norwegian Navy, Tordenskjold is of course in focus.

[thomas aagaard]

Even the word Viking, means "En person fra Viken", or in english, "a person from the bay", referring to Viken in the Oslo fjord.

 

That is just some Norwegian nationalistic idea that is really not supported in any way.

 

 

Also they read an English newspaper from 1801 and see what they call the enemy... 

[Lord Hood]

I think that Greatest Admirals is such a hard one to score. Now Horatio Nelson is deemed one of Britain's greatest Admirals and it is a fair comment however the more you read the more you understand how he inherited many of his ideas that created him as a great Admiral in terms of tactics. There are other Admirals whom people overlook however they were the ones who initially tried and tested the tactics that would make Nelson great. Lord Howe for instance at the Glorious First of June had an undermanned fleet and was against a French fleet that had not yet executed their best officers. Lord Hood is credited with instilling the killing instinct and "absolute destruction" mentality of Lord Nelson. Going further back there are other great Admirals such as Sir Edward Hawke who won an incredible battle at Quiberon. George Brydges Rodney, Duncan and Jervis and the list continues. After my ramble I suppose that the point I'm trying to make is that there are a lot of Great Admirals who then deserve credit for their input to create Greatest Admirals.

[oldbig]

There were Swedish commanders that where successful, just go on Wikipedia for the full list.  

[Charles-René Magon]

France : Duquesne, Tourville, Jean-Bart (which was not only a privateer) in Louis XIV's navy.

 

Suffren in Louis XVI's navy.

 

Latouche-Tréville in Napoleon's navy.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Charles-René Magon

[Rob]

There were Swedish commanders that where successful, just go on Wikipedia for the full list.  

Every country has succesfull commanders, succesful does not mean they where the expectional great admirals... Then i could nearly list the whole dutch navy

[Ryga]

If you know the most succesful Swedish admirals tell them, because clearly we do know them.

[Baner]

For Sweden, the only one that comes to my mind is Baron Klas Kristersson Horn, hes considered a naval hero in Sweden and probably in Finland.

 

Won some major victory's over the Danish navy in 1565 and 1566(died 1566 by plauge).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klas_Horn

 

/Baner

[Ryga]

See guys, there is atleast one from Sweden ^^.

[Kontreadmiral]

For Sweden, the only one that comes to my mind is Baron Klas Kristersson Horn, hes considered a naval hero in Sweden and probably in Finland.

 

Won some major victory's over the Danish navy in 1565 and 1566(died 1566 by plauge).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klas_Horn

 

/Baner

Klas Horn is by far the best Swedish admiral, but I don't think he was great. Most of his actions were against small squadrons, which proves little.

 

Of his bigger actions -

 

Öland, 1564 - A tactical Swedish victory, he losses his flagship and Herluf Trolle losses three smaller ships - No significant impact on the war.

Bukow - Horn manages to kill the Danish naval hero Herluf Trolle, but he also suffers heavy casualties - A draw.

Bornholm, 1565 - Horn outnumber Adm. Rud almost 5-3. He manages to sink three large Danish ships, but losses three ships himself.

Öland, 1566 - Despite outnumbering Adm. Lauritzen-Baden 2-1, Horn is defeated and forced to retreat with heavy casualties. Adm. Lauritzen-Baden's squadron is caught in a storm a few days later, and 15 Danish ships sink - Horn had nothing to do with it.

 

Good? Sure.

Great? No.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Kontreadmiral

[Baner]

Well he might not have been in class with Admiral Nelson, but at the time he whas the best we had.

 

At Bornholm the Danish lost both their Admiral ships and both admirals, one killed and one captured.

 

The third battle of Öland 1566, if im right whas a minor battle with no result due to the storm, they where forced to quit the fighting becuse of windchanges.

 

He had control of the Baltic sea for some time, could tax the trade ships and so on, without the interference of the Danish navy.

 

I think without him the Danish would have won the 7 years war, now it became a draw with the Kalmar union ended for good.

 

/Baner

Edited February 26, 2015 by Baner