jodgi Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Just now, Liberalism said: Arenaguys are treated as outcasts by the RvRguys. I think the RvR guys won with a landslide. We could be treated with overbearing pity now 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HachiRoku Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Just now, rediii said: You are just one with the arenaguys. Grind keeps a game alive, yes but the grind isn't half as bad as you think it is. Oh wait I should actually go and grind myself a art of shiphandling or im not competitive anymore ... should stop writing in forum Grinds make games repetitive. It's not the XP grind I have an issue with anyway its the shipbuilding grind I find insane. If it wasn't as bad as I say it is why does this topic exist? Xp is not that bad you are right. It is extremely repetitive and boring however. I guess you're right and all the new players in steam reviews are wrong. Who cares about them anyway since we don't need a new generation of players. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne Wildcat Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Getting off topic here. Can you bring the grind discussion to a different forum topic please. Personally, I’m still hitting AI in a basic cutter and patrolling neighboring waters in a privateer. Although I don’t have the gusto that Rainsborough has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodgi Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, History said: Xp is not that bad you are right. It is extremely repetitive and boring however. I would like to see the numbers for "the best" PvP only grinder, by that I mean xp/time. Does such a player even exist? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory Rainsborough Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 minute ago, jodgi said: I would like to see the numbers for "the best" PvP only grinder, by that I mean xp/time. Does such a player even exist? I've not done any grinding except for the hostility to flip ports. Almost above RA. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKY Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 16 minutes ago, Gregory Rainsborough said: I raise you a snow. requin made people forget about snow. the most OP stern camper ship... 5.53 turn rate 🤮 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnie Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 This "Collapse of Nations" thread illustrates the need for regular map-resets and perhaps wipes. Hear me out before the expected "You can have my 1st rate when you take it out of my cold, dead hands". In WWII online there are set victory conditions which when met, one side is declared the winner and the map resets. We could do the same, with rewards for the winning side. The rewards could be additional ship bonuses to the winning clans or be as simple as getting a permanent national crown next to your name. It would be impressive to be "Insert-Cool-Name-Here" with a black crown (won with Pirates), grey crown (won with Russians) and blue crown (won with French). Map resets wouldn't be traumatic if they were an expected part of the game. In any system (genetics and AI) drift will form a majority and overcome, which is why there is a genetic Eve and a genetic Adam. Randomness ensures >someone< will win. Game has to take this into account. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HachiRoku Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Liberalism said: Arenaguys are treated as outcasts by the RvRguys. They don't get along very well. RVR players are always happy after every wipe for a month until its back to the same old shit of having no enemies left because everyone quit the farming. We have had 4 cycles of wipes and good rvr and they all failed in the end. There is nothing different with the current system except that building ships is more work so I will just let history repeat itself like it has everytime and send links back to this post. I always love when my predictions turn out to be true like dlc ships for example. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabman Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 7 minutes ago, jodgi said: I would like to see the numbers for "the best" PvP only grinder, by that I mean xp/time. Does such a player even exist? We have some PvP only guys that are 900 crew from 95% PvP with the exception of a couple of hostility missions for port battles, but that AI grind is unavoidable if you want to RvR. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Snape Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, History said: Grinds make games repetitive. It's not the XP grind I have an issue with anyway its the shipbuilding grind I find insane. If it wasn't as bad as I say it is why does this topic exist? Xp is not that bad you are right. It is extremely repetitive and boring however. I guess you're right and all the new players in steam reviews are wrong. Who cares about them anyway since we don't need a new generation of players. Grinds may be repetitive, but they also make people log on. While the pop might have dwindled a little bit...it's still consistently going above 1000 players during EU prime. This is because they have something to do. As we saw right after the pre-release wipe, grinding neutral ports puts fans in the seats. Give MMO players some rank to hit, nerdy title or goofy cosmetic item that differentiates them from the masses and they will continue to long on until they attain them. This is something the NA devs have yet and probably will never grasp. I'm afraid that once most folks hit max rank and get a decent amount of books, the pop will nosedive and we'll start seeing similar levels from 6 months ago. Ship knowledge slots is not content. This is mundane busy work that annoys people. But give someone a fancy flag or a special title for unboxing every frigate.....and they'll do it. RVR gets stale because you're killing the same people over and over in battles, in particular battles that are usually one sided, and once you do a couple of them....interest wanes. There's no clear definable goal. Total destruction of an enemy and making them quit or change nation isn't a goal. It's just bad game design. Grinds are good. Grinds without goals or good payoffs are not. The juice has to be worth the squeeze. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HachiRoku Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Severus Snape said: Grinds may be repetitive, but they also make people log on. While the pop might have dwindled a little bit...it's still consistently going above 1000 players during EU prime. This is because they have something to do. As we saw right after the pre-release wipe, grinding neutral ports puts fans in the seats. Give MMO players some rank to hit, nerdy title or goofy cosmetic item that differentiates them from the masses and they will continue to long on until they attain them. This is something the NA devs have yet and probably will never grasp. I'm afraid that once most folks hit max rank and get a decent amount of books, the pop will nosedive and we'll start seeing similar levels from 6 months ago. Ship knowledge slots is not content. This is mundane busy work that annoys people. But give someone a fancy flag or a special title for unboxing every frigate.....and they'll do it. RVR gets stale because you're killing the same people over and over in battles, in particular battles that are usually one sided, and once you do a couple of them....interest wanes. There's no clear definable goal. Total destruction of an enemy and making them quit or change nation isn't a goal. It's just bad game design. Grinds are good. Grinds without goals or good payoffs are not. The juice has to be worth the squeeze. Then why dont you give people something fun and meaningful to do? Easy access to ships and port battles without an ai grind? Wouldn't it be nice if there was no other reason to log in other than to undock and sail to port battle on short notice? The Flag system would actually work if flags could only be bought in front line ports for example.. Everything gets stale but the objective should be to delay that as long as possible. AI farming does not help that. Shipbuilding grind also not since after a matter of time there will be a meta standard ship that is required to have. The first competent fleet to have that will have nothing to fear because noone will attack them until they have and equal build ship. That means no content for anyone for a while. We have all seen it many times over and I simply cannot believe how you can all defend a system that is proven to not work over a system that was not perfect but was no doubt about it better. Edited July 2, 2019 by History Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Snape Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Just now, History said: When dont you give people something fun and meaningful to do? Easy access to ships and port battles without an ai grind? Wouldn't it be nice if there was no other reason to log in other than to undock and sail to port battle on short notice? The Flag system would actually work if flags could only be bought in front line ports for example.. Everything gets stale but the objective should be to delay that as long as possible. AI farming does not help that. Shipbuilding grind also not since after a matter of time there will be a meta standard ship that is required to have. The first competent fleet to have that will have nothing to fear because noone will attack them until they have and equal build ship. That means no content for anyone for a while. We have all seen it many times over and I simply cannot believe how you can all defend a system that is proven to not work over a system that was not perfect but was no doubt about it better. I'm not against this. Raids were supposed to be coming......"soon". The game lacks content that a player can log in for an hour or 2, fight something and log off. The longer I play this game, the more I think long sustained RVR is bad for it. Especially with port bonuses and ship investments. Once a clan or nation loses their port the only options are to quit or change nations. Perhaps that's by design so more DLCs are sold. Who knows. Rebuilding in another port will take weeks and again, you're at the mercy of the nations attacking you. Winner take all mindset just doesn't work well in NA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severus Snape Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Koveras said: Actually if the grind becomes excessive if makes ppl log off. NA both has excessive grinding AND the banhammerwave of '19, and ofc the vets doing the grind all over again... If they can be bothered - Which I suspect many of us won't.. Can't argue with numbers though. People are back. Even the Banned Privateer 🙂. The game has stuff for them to do and for as long as it continues to give them content they'll stick around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knobby Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 2 hours ago, Vinnie said: This "Collapse of Nations" thread illustrates the need for regular map-resets and perhaps wipes. Hear me out before the expected "You can have my 1st rate when you take it out of my cold, dead hands". In WWII online there are set victory conditions which when met, one side is declared the winner and the map resets. We could do the same, with rewards for the winning side. The rewards could be additional ship bonuses to the winning clans or be as simple as getting a permanent national crown next to your name. It would be impressive to be "Insert-Cool-Name-Here" with a black crown (won with Pirates), grey crown (won with Russians) and blue crown (won with French). Map resets wouldn't be traumatic if they were an expected part of the game. In any system (genetics and AI) drift will form a majority and overcome, which is why there is a genetic Eve and a genetic Adam. Randomness ensures >someone< will win. Game has to take this into account. I have been arguing for regular map resets or 'seasons' for years now. To me it's the only way to counter act eventual domination by a few big nations. Not sure why it has never even been considered or seriously discussed. To preempt some obvious objections: map reset would not need to mean xp/skill/ship reset. In fact i would argue against it. As has been suggested a reward could be awarded to the winner, preferably just cosmetic or commemorative. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabman Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 11 minutes ago, Knobby said: I have been arguing for regular map resets or 'seasons' for years now. To me it's the only way to counter act eventual domination by a few big nations. Not sure why it has never even been considered or seriously discussed. To preempt some obvious objections: map reset would not need to mean xp/skill/ship reset. In fact i would argue against it. As has been suggested a reward could be awarded to the winner, preferably just cosmetic or commemorative. A map reset would however require regrinding all buildings, shipyards and outposts no doubt which would suck big time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus MacDuff Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 10 minutes ago, Knobby said: I have been arguing for regular map resets or 'seasons' for years now. To me it's the only way to counter act eventual domination by a few big nations. Not sure why it has never even been considered or seriously discussed. To preempt some obvious objections: map reset would not need to mean xp/skill/ship reset. In fact i would argue against it. As has been suggested a reward could be awarded to the winner, preferably just cosmetic or commemorative. A map reset would kill the motivation for a lot of players because of the enormous investment in time that goes into their crafting ports now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liq Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 12 minutes ago, Knobby said: I have been arguing for regular map resets or 'seasons' for years now. To me it's the only way to counter act eventual domination by a few big nations. Not sure why it has never even been considered or seriously discussed. To preempt some obvious objections: map reset would not need to mean xp/skill/ship reset. In fact i would argue against it. As has been suggested a reward could be awarded to the winner, preferably just cosmetic or commemorative. +1 Then you would get titles e.g. "season 1 winner" or the similar in a 1800s nautical term.. And perhaps unlock unique items e.g. flags or paints you cannot get another way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbancourt Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 2 hours ago, rediii said: just grind xp with pvp. You can crew a frigate already after tutorial. Most of us don't get a significant amount of XP from PVP. Grinding the AI you get much more XP and your ship is still floating afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HachiRoku Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 2 hours ago, rediii said: just grind xp with pvp. You can crew a frigate already after tutorial. shipbuilding grind is insane? You can craft I dont even know how many trincs a day. Otto did all the crafting anyway Im also interested how you tested current shipbuilding/eco Yea give everyone all ships without grind. You actually know that pvp grind is a thing right now needed to craft lineships? Just get rid of eco. Everyone enjoys the same stuff anyway, right? ... nope. I don't enjoy only pvp in NA I enjoy the bigger picture and that means also eco etc. The flagsystem also wouldnt work because fakeflags and pulling flags to waste time would be still a thing. I looked at the amount of gold is required to get a shipyard 3 and how hard it is to get the woods. Not that hard. Also. Fakeflags never worked. If you actually played RVR at the time to judge it you would knot that from a strategical point they were a waste of money. Everyone already knew where the enemy had their ships etc. It actually gave the community a reason to spy on other nations. The more fake flags you bought the higher the price would be. Back then you could buy a flag for aves from kpr and even then it was not an issue. The devs could have replaced the gold with pvp marks but that would have made to much sense to test. Eco was actually decent once. Before you played the game. The ai produced and bought goods. The devs could have full control over supply and demand for the amount of players on the server. It forced traders to sail all over the map to buy goods. Back then capping a trader was interesting and traders could make a fortune selling goods at the capitals. Player production buildings were without a doubt the worst design choice for the eco so far. It made the whole eco clan dependent and that is bad for the server. Ecos should be a national effort. It also gave people a reason to own more ports the larger the nation was playerwise since more players require more supplies. It sounds so simple and logical right? I guess if you had any expirence with the eco other than the broken system we clearly have atm you would stop defending it. We had all this when open sea speeds were far slower. You might be suprised to hear this but I traded once and build ships. I am level 50 crafter but back then it was so exciting to go out and look for all the goods you needed to build ships. Pirates knew the good trade routes and hit traders all the time. Instead of getting rid of the goods and even sinking the ships for goods they would haul the stuff back to mortimer to build there own ships. Why those things were changed is beyond me. How many trade routes require player protection currently? There was a time when pirates had 10 traders and hour on every coastline to capture and when they could actually use the goods for building ships. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 3 hours ago, rediii said: Ofcourse i'm exaggerating but it ends up in such a complicated system that its not worth getting that. Its the same with OW pvp, creating a battlegroup etc. etc. What can they tag? can they get in battle with another clan again? Can I leave clan and attack my friendlies right after? Are they only active at maintenance? Create a ruleset and im pretty sure it doesnt make stuff better AND ppl find ways to exploit it. Keep it simple and make it like the old system. Let small nations vote with which other small nation they want to work together and then they basicly become 1 nation. problem here is Alts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potemkin Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) @HistoryCrack open another bottle of cheap ass irish whiskey and tell us how you really feel lil guy. Some of us are just trying to enjoy the game while we still have something of a player base. Coming back to the forums to claim "i was right, the game is dying" after roughly 3.5 years doesn't make you look nearly as smart as you seem to think it does. Edited July 2, 2019 by Potemkin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HachiRoku Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, Potemkin said: i was right, the game is dying where did I say that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potemkin Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 16 minutes ago, History said: where did I say that? Sorry ill re-paraphrase. "Eco is broken, rvr is broken, ship crafting is broken, pvp roe is broken, resource procurement is broken, here are my ideas that would totally work 100% even though the game is released and they wont be implemented". Honestly tell us, what is your objective with all this? Help us help you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potemkin Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Liberalism said: I thought that grind is what keeps players playing, at least according to @rediii. Maybe we could reset every month, that would be a secret to sustain 1000+ online forever! The grind was fun when most everyone except sea trials folks were brand new at EA drop and didnt know wtf was what. Now its just redicu-nerds power grinding to get the edge. There's no more discovery, no more seeing the open world for the first time or winning your first pvp fight. The hype is gone and the only thing that would bring it back for the people with 3k plus hours is full servers (not 500 alts). Edited July 2, 2019 by Potemkin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potemkin Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Liberalism said: Maybe not broken, but it ain't flawless. PvP RoE where if there is 30-40BR gap in small battle like 7th rate vs 6th rate, all of sudden you can have a 1st rate join to "reinforce" 7th rate aka counter-ganking mechanic. They have 13% BR margin for battle closure, but they didn't thought about top limit of how much you can overdo BR on one side... so you can increase BR on one side like 5x. Economy is flawed with DLC ships, so is RvR. Current RvR enforces once again mass/zerg nations with big fleets of 25, we have a fake frontline mechanic that made RvR actually worse than better. Ship crafting is not that terrible, but there is fake redistribution of points per ports. Who's choosing which port is 45, 55 or 15 points? It should be based on how many players use the port, how many players develop it. That way nation or clan can build up decent base anywhere they wish and all ports should start with mininum points count. I thought we were done with testing few months before game release and it was just all about tuning, balancing, optimization, bug fixes and localizations. Instead, we've got lots of new mechanics, not tested well and with many flaws. Im certainly not disagreeing with anyone who points out flaws because there are too many to count. Still i dont care, the game is still entertaining for me, but thats irrelevant. What i cant wrap my head around is bitching about things we all know wont change. Im pretty sure devs have a good reading on whats broken. If they're ever gonna fix these things they will do it in their own time (and we all know what that means). Making a bitchfest circle jerk where everyone pats each other on the back for bitching the loudest is hilariously pathetic. Edited July 2, 2019 by Potemkin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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