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I break my silence on this thread (self imposed silence as my "pro" opinion was stated), to simply say "Wow".

Most anti arguments to date have been in the realm of reason, but to suggest "serious risk of legal problems by including...".

I won't even comment on the rest.

Suffice to say that half of the gaming industry out there with mention of religion is currently at risk.

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As long as religions aren't a major factor in gameplay, I don't mind them being integrated, but to make them influence ship/crew performance? Plz no. Make them like independent minor factions that ca

Faith and religion played a huge role in the society and the fabric of life in 18 century. Do you think faith and religion have place in Naval action? If yes in what form?

No.   Simply because the primary faiths of the time were Catholic (Spain & France) and Protestant (England) while both of these are Christian faiths, the differences between the two caused wars

Holy Cow Sin Khan! Are you serious or is that a troll post?

 

I guess you are "criminally minded, atheistic and irreligious" as you are here.

 

This could just be a case of projection. He is all the things he accuses the community of being and therefore assumes everyone else here must share the same sociopathic tendencies. Who knows?

 

 

A lot of his posts boarderline trolling to be honest.

He took it upon himself to critique half a dozen submitions in this thread - http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/3082-naval-action-twitch-art-contest/page-2

and almost single handedly turned a thread about slavary into a flame war - http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/3154-slave-trade-preferences/

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I am actually rethinking this just a little considering how important faith was back then. We hardly have a concept of it at all in this day and age.

How important it was. However realistically it seems ships crews could be of many faiths and it not cause too much of a problem.

So people were much more accepting than you would think. I don't see how it could be in game really unless at a very top political level as a pawn (fake reason for war).

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Again, speaking as a historian with professional expertise on the topic, religion is MUCH more influential and central to public life by far in parts of the world today (such as the US) than it was in the 18th and 19th century in Europe or America.  I know there is a popular narrative about how important religion "used to be" and that we have lost "faith" in the modern world, but even a cursory examination of objective resources will show that not to be the case in so many ways.  

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Wow Tom. That is quite a revelation!

Are there any public sources on the topic that have been published?

I would not be surprised to see third world and some concentrated parts of the 1st world even more entrenched (because they have to be to survive proof) and inward looking/Isolationist.

 

I am wondering whether some historians suffer from what I call "spotlight" syndrome where they dig too deep and exaggerate some things that were not in fact widespread. But I digress. Suffice to say I am interested in the evidence.

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Well, it's a bit off-topic really, since the thread is about whether religion should be a part of the game.  I'm merely responding to the repeated misconception that religion was very influential as a part of daily life in this period.  For those not interested, just skip this post.  But, for Destraex:  

 

It's not really a revelation except to those who uncritically view history through the lens of contemporary popular conceptions. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of public sources.  Just do any reading on the history of 18th and 19th century Europe and America.  Take a brief look at the relation of the state and the church during the French Revolution where the population exhibited a rather violent anti-clericalism, for instance, or the response that John Wesley, for instance, received almost everywhere he traveled and preached in England.  Clearly, Spain entertained a more central role for religion during this period, including a continued effort to evangelize the New World through missions, but these efforts were as much political as religious and near the beginning of the period covered by the game, European rulers together forced Pope Clement to disband the Jesuit order in part because of the incluturation controversy, but mostly because they represented the power of an independent church, something the rulers did not want.  The First and Second "Great Awakenings" in America during the "revival" periods (not long before and during the last part of the period covered by the game), while deeply influential on religious practice and structures in America, were themselves responses to what was widely understood to be spreading secularism, skepticism, deism and rationalism.  They were reactionary movements of relatively short-lived duration.  England and Germany, in particular, lacked religious enthusiasm during this period, and the Holy Roman Empire in its last century of existence was mostly a political rather than religious body.  By the middle of the 19th century in Germany, Nietzsche was able to write that God was dead.  He didn't pronounce the deity's demise.  He merely acknowledged the nadir that faith and religious belief had reached in northern Europe by that time.  

 

Religious enthusiasm has always experienced ebb and flow in the west.  The middle ages were indeed, on the whole, a period of strong religious orientation in daily and political life.  Rulers held power through divine right and the church was perhaps the most significant unifying social institution of these ages.  But the modern world, beginning in the 18th century, was a radically different place, and this in large part due to a clear and intentional rejection of what were perceived to be the excesses and deep problematics of the too close relation of church and state.  This long period (from the middle of the 17th century through the 19th century) of growing rationalism and, in truth, anti-religious sentiment goes by the name of the Enlightenment.  Perhaps you've heard of it.  

 

I'm not wanting to be disagreeable.  But, much as someone intimately familiar with the operations of an 18th century naval vessel would probably chime in to correct misconceptions about its handling or structures, I just wanted to correct the misconceptions that have been presented repeatedly in this thread about the religious character of the time period of this game.  

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Good post, Pullings.

 

Sometimes I feel like Western historical memory ends at the 1800s. All the religious, economic and sexual mores of the 'past' and our 'heritage' seem to date from that fraught early industrial period when everything was remade. What life was really like before that, we have a hard time imaging.

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Personally I believe each ship looked to its Captain more for Morale, faith etc. and the Captain decided what was the law within Naval rules and regs, it is the Captain who should have the biggest impact on Crew Morale, brave, lucky, flogger, strict, tolerant, Religious and so on would all be bigger factors than having a Chaplain on board, some did some didn't.

 

Talking Religion is a bit like talking Politics we all have our opinions on it, maybe leave it to the player which type of captain they want to be to rule their ship, superstition, amount of Grog, shore leave, prize money and loose women I am sure played a bigger part in the life of a RN Seaman. (Cannot say for other Navies)

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I think that it could be included in the game as a choice for that particular Captain. I don't think that it should impact the crew though. I suppose that you could have a faith rating for your Captain but that shouldn't necessarily inspire or detract from your crew dependent on it. I feel relatively certain that if I offered my crew a tankard of grog over a verse they would be equally as inspired (this is coming from an Englishman so obviously alcohol has to play a part). The issue with this impacting crew is that there were multiple things that did. For instance Edward Pellews crew fought for each other as there was a strong Cornish presence and Nelson always had a strong presence of crew from Norfolk so must we include those sort of options also? So incorporate it as a sort of side mission option and not that of a crew requirement option.

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I think we are over disscussing this,  games like Medieval 2 Total War/ Age Of Empires/ Crusader Kings have religion in them, and its not that big of a deal...

 

The thing with AoE (III, being the only one that takes place in around the same time period as Naval Action) is that while there is religion, there is no explicit definition of Protestantism, Catholicism, etc. All factions have access to the same religious building and units. (I will admit remembering that there were special faction Church upgrades that allowed for unique units to be created, however again, these made very little impact in-game- and again did nothing to further identify a faction's religion in-game)

 

If we were to follow this format, that would be ok. I'm not saying that decorations such as crosses, temples, priests walking around the streets, could not be considered, in fact I agree these should be implemented for purely aesthetic purposes, but as far as anything that is used to A: Identify/single out a player, B: provide an unfair advantage/disadvantage, or C: Warrant for some sort of special inclusion/exclusion of players.

 

Again, while there were many faiths running around in the age of sail, from Islam, Lutheranism,Orthodox Christianity, Vodou (Voodoo precursor) etc. the two most prominent (and thus the two that had the biggest impact in the New World) were Catholicism and Protestantism. As stated before, there were many conflicts simply on the basis of these faiths during the time the game takes place, and there is still contention even in present times. I plead with the admins to avoid creating what could potentially be a very poisonous atmosphere in-game between players of real-life differing faiths. You want proof? Just look at Sin Kahn.

 

Again, I emphasis that what should be considered is superstition, rather than faith.

 

@ Sin Khan. I do not know who you are nor do I know what your faith is. More importantly however, I know nothing of you as a person; what you think and how it affects your actions. Therefore I cannot pass judgement on you as a person. To immediately pass someone as "criminally minded" simply because of their faith (or even lack thereof) is incredibly shortsighted, brash, and bordering the realm of ignorance. Simply because I (we) do not agree with what you believe 100% does not give you any dominion over us or any ability to judge us if you know nothing about us. By simply writing us off without first understanding who we are as people (or even just gamers) then you have very well condemned yourself to a mentality that sees evil in all things that does not conform to your rigid parameters, even when no evil exists there.This community is full of friendly, intelligent, good-intentioned people, yet you would have never known that because you immediately write us off without any chance for us to show you otherwise. I am sorry for you.

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Absolutely not! I could see a point being made for religion having an impact on dimplomatic relations if such a game mechanic will be introduced. I don't want to be forced into a religion in this game because, well, my religion won't be in this game. Just like I don't want to be forced to sail for England because i'm not English.

 

I don't think it's a good idea. Then again i'm not a game developer.

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Oh my oh my...

 

... you are playing a character, acting in a stage, incarnating a individual, playing a game, pressing buttons and seeing stuff in a screen. Whatever you want to call it.

 

You are not in a catechism class.

 

How much you love the game that in will influence your own personal out-of-game beliefs is beyond me...  :blink:

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Faith and religion played a huge role in the society and the fabric of life in 18 century. Do you think faith and religion have place in Naval action? If yes in what form?

No.  Faith was a part of society, but at sea it was certainly not a priority unless you were unfortunate enough to sail under a blue-light sailor like Saumarez.  They were not the norm, and it would ruin gameplay for those of us who are not religious to have to put up with it here. *(don't be offended by that comment, just stating facts as I see 'em) 

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I think a game set in the 18th /19th century without religion of any sort would be a major oversight.

.... I think it has a place in the game albeit not a major one. 

Unless you're going to affect gameplay with it you would just be asking for trouble. Even today if you say the wrong thing about someone's faith (even the 17th century roots) you're going to make people very angry.  As for the occasional mention of religion, or inclusion of a chaplain, or whatever, that's no big thing.  But remember the sort of reputations navy chaplains had before you invite one onto your ship! :)

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No. Faith was a part of society, but at sea it was certainly not a priority unless you were unfortunate enough to sail under a blue-light sailor like Saumarez. They were not the norm, and it would ruin gameplay for those of us who are not religious to have to put up with it here. *(don't be offended by that comment, just stating facts as I see 'em)

Unless you're going to affect gameplay with it you would just be asking for trouble. Even today if you say the wrong thing about someone's faith (even the 17th century roots) you're going to make people very angry. As for the occasional mention of religion, or inclusion of a chaplain, or whatever, that's no big thing. But remember the sort of reputations navy chaplains had before you invite one onto your ship! :)

Even though religion/faith wasn't necessarily visible in a ship, it certainly was in societies. "Having to put up with it here" has nothing to do in forcing one to believe in anything, politics between different faithsystems and religions should play a major role in the game, like they did in reality. Cleaning monstrosities/good deeds, which were made in the name of religions, from the game by swiping them under under the table is not a good thing to do IMO. Game goes far in the search for technical accuracy, I see no reason, what so ever, why it shouldn't try to get same accuracy in to the social enviroment inside the game.

Personally I don't mind seeing a couple of religious zealots whining from their moral ivory towers(or gages), as long as the game presents the events objective way. Way of living and the societies were different 300-400 years ago. I think that presenting the world like it was, is more important than presenting a disney version of it.

Slavery, conquering lands and fighting wars in the name of religion (and king/queen/whatknot), fighting against other religious factions, harassing people because of their social, religious or genetic background, colonialism, racism, feudalism, roles between men and women, childlabor... All those could give a lot of thoughtrising content to the game. Im for implementing it all as long as its not portrayed in blaming, or shaming manner.

Faithsystems shouldnt be left aside. As long as the content is historical, theres no "wrong things" to say. Sticking in historical perspective also gives those "angry religious people" nothing to use as a weapon against the game. Of course they can leave the game, or try to give it a bad rep, but later would most likely end up making the game just more popular.

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People really should read posts in the thread before contributing. The claim that religion played some kind of universal major role in societies in the late 18th century and early 19th century (which was not 300-400 years ago) has been shown to be simply ignorance about the period largely shaped by contemporary popular mythology (and, likely, the exceptionally poor way history is taught is our schools).

By your very argument asking for accuracy of social environment and modeling the world the way it was at the time, religion should play almost no part (in the specific world dynamics this game models). To do otherwise would be to present the "Disney" version. If people want the "Disney" version, I have nothing against that in principle. It's the version we mostly get in popular culture, including games. It's hard for me to see how adding it improves anything. And arguments for adding it so far haven't really suggested how it would make the game better or more fun in a specific way. It's been argued for from the idea that it should be included because it was so important at the time, and arguing for it on the basis of historical accuracy just betrays historical ignorance.

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As far as gameplay and how to incorporate religion into a game like this, would be difficult anyway.  I suggest, while in port, just click on the church structure, on the town map, as a place to go to get local news, or get in touch to find out what the community needs are, and this can be used to increase local standings/reputation.  I have a feeling, some people will need to raise their standings/reputation in some manner and this could help.  The tavern is another place to get news and trade info, but the church would be more community oriented.  This is not a RPG and people will do whatever they want anyway, regardless of religious influences.  The church could also be a place to purchase religious icons from to decorate the ship with if offered within the game mechanics (examples could be decorative paintings on the sides and stern, religious symbols on the sails, statuary on the bow or placed on the decking, etc).

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People really should read posts in the thread before contributing. The claim that religion played some kind of universal major role in societies in the late 18th century and early 19th century (which was not 300-400 years ago) has been shown to be simply ignorance about the period largely shaped by contemporary popular mythology (and, likely, the exceptionally poor way history is taught is our schools).

By your very argument asking for accuracy of social environment and modeling the world the way it was at the time, religion should play almost no part (in the specific world dynamics this game models). To do otherwise would be to present the "Disney" version. If people want the "Disney" version, I have nothing against that in principle. It's the version we mostly get in popular culture, including games. It's hard for me to see how adding it improves anything. And arguments for adding it so far haven't really suggested how it would make the game better or more fun in a specific way. It's been argued for from the idea that it should be included because it was so important at the time, and arguing for it on the basis of historical accuracy just betrays historical ignorance.

I thought that the timeframe of NA was around 1570-1820. I might be wrong, if so, please point out where the timeframe is being announced. The importance of religion in some western countries politics was quite small around 18th century, as you said. But I dont agree with you that religions didnt have any major role in global scale.

Feodalistic system was still in use and kicking in most parts of western europe, church was still one of the main players in the politics and had true power when decisions were made. Christians were exporting their beliefs around the world and dividing the world into colonialistic zones.

Most of the schools were run by some religious organizations. Christianity, Islam and buddhism were dividing the Asia, while christians forced most of the southern africa, and finalized to take over both americas, to become mainly christian continents.

Huge majority of humankind lived outside the few nations which were living the time of enlightement. Religions were actively moving into new locations, although the connection between nations and religions was (slowly) weakening.

I would find it an ignorant point of view if the faithsystems would be left outside the social enviroment of the game, just because those didnt play a large role in one part of the world (if we are talking about open world, which has a kind of global ring on it..)

Like today, even in 1600-1800, there were major differencies between nations, even cities about how important role the religion played in the society.

Personally I would like to get the adult version of the game instead of the Disney conversion with fairys and such. I think it would be refreshing to finally to start geting games which are not designed for 16 years old teens. Thats why I would like to see also the "not so nice" part of the history to be taken into the game, faith and religions included.

Ps. Reading ones writings and following the topic doesn't necessarily mean agreeing with him/her opinions. Havent yet seen any posts in this topic, which would prove that faith didnt play a major role in societys on global scale. So theres still room for conversation.

Nice thoughts Dino. I have been more into the faction kind of thinking, where in some parts of the world map the religion could play a role on the "status" of the captain and affect the trade/missions available for a player.

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