The Spanish Pioneers

[Ankso]

Hello everyone!

I've returned to the game after a long time (almost since the Sea Trials) and I'm currently playing with an alt in the PvE server, looking for some relaxing time before release. And, since lately the PvE server has seen some downtime, I've figured out that I'll put here something to read while you wait, or during your long trading expeditions, for those of you interested.

It's a book written by Charles F. Lummis, a north american journalist, historian, and interestingly enough, an activist for Indian rights, among other things. It's a different view about Spain's discovery and expansion through America during the XVI century, that drifts away from the usual view of a very cruel and bloody submission of indigenous tribes (this is known as "The Black Legend", La Leyenda Negra in Spanish, which most historians nowadays agree is a fact, to one degree or another), and also tells the tales of some of the Spaniards that ventured inside this New World, some of them well known, while others are completely unknown to the general public, even in Spain.

You can find the book here and read it completely free: https://archive.org/details/spanishpioneers00lummrich

I think that it's a well written, easy to read (even if English is not your native language, as it's my case), and finally entertaining book. Although I'm not personally agree with everything that's written there, I think that it's much closer to reality than the completely opposite view, were Spaniards are depicted more like genocides than conquerors.

I hope that you like it, and may be you can even consider joining Spain after release

[LegoLarry]

 Many deaths were result of diseases that Europeans had resistance to and south americans not.

[Galvez88]

the greatest genocities of the time were the English, in fact those who owned slaves who treated as true animals were the English in their American colonies and later in India and other Southeast Asian countries. You have to be well informed about things and at that time no country was a saint .. everyone did horrible things. but if someone did atrocities were the English and is registered as they treated the slaves until very recently.
  That racism later I use the United States to this day. but it all started in the English colonies

[Galvez88]

In fact, thousands of African slaves went down to Florida, fleeing the slavery of the northern colonies....

[Jan van Santen]

Everybody did....

50 years after Cuba was colonialized by the Spanish, not a single of the native inhabitants was left alive. In Jamaica the average lifespan of a slave was 8 years, a grand total of 8 million african slaves was "imported" by the British to Jamaica alone. 

And still there is a controversial monument around like this:

https://www.ft.com/content/032fe4a0-9a96-11e8-ab77-f854c65a4465

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Colston

[Sir Lancelot Holland]

15 hours ago, ManuelSpain said:

the greatest genocities of the time were the English, in fact those who owned slaves who treated as true animals were the English in their American colonies and later in India and other Southeast Asian countries. You have to be well informed about things and at that time no country was a saint .. everyone did horrible things. but if someone did atrocities were the English and is registered as they treated the slaves until very recently.
  That racism later I use the United States to this day. but it all started in the English colonies

What Sir, were the end results of the British Empire? A large part of the Earth owes their political system, the way their military services are run, how their civil services operate to the British.

All of the nations under  British control were left as functioning nations, aside from the United States, who forged their own path after the war of Independence, even then, their own Constitution was based on Magna Carta, the basis of British law, most were permitted to leave the Empire peacefully  becoming part of the Commonwealth of Nations, self governing and mostly prosperous.

Yes there were rebellions in India and Africa, yes they were put down with brute force, Spain too utilised brute force to control their Empire in Central and south America, as did France in Africa and Algiers, It is impossible to condemn Great Britain for the use of brute force without also condemning Spain and France, all three of the major European powers were equally guilty in that regard.

Great Britain was, in the 19th Century in the forefront of the abolition of slavery, one of the first nations to legally abolish it, £ hundreds of thousands were spent patrolling Africa's ports and Atlantic sea lanes hunting down slave ships,  Even the still young United States agreed to cease importing slaves, instead relying on birth numbers to sustain slavery, upon which their economy literally depended.

The ill treatment that slaves endured was no different to the treatment of sailors in the Royal Navy and the Army, who, could also be flogged or executed for the most trivial of offenses under the articles of war, so even the 'free' men  were treated equally to those who were described as property and chattels under the U.S. Constitution, slavery was never a black and white issue, it was shades of grey with little difference between slave holding and non slave holding nations.

Nothing i have said regarding the treatment of freemen or slaves can be considered right or moral by today's standards, but this was the 19th Century and these were the standards and morals of that time, it was done, it cannot be changed to suit a modern perspective, glossing over the cold, hard, realities will not make it all go away, neither is it advisable to cover up the wrongs done by the great European powers or the United States of America, as George Santanta said, "those who forget history are doomed to repeat it".

When the aftermath of the British and Spanish Empires are compared it is clear that Great Britain left her former colonies in a far better shape to survive as nations, it may not have been perfect, but, you only have to look at the revolutionary nature of the Latin American countries compared to Canada within the Continent of the Americas to see that much.

[Hethwill]

Please, do not turn this into a "slave" agenda revisionism but a History facts debate.

Thanks all.

[Ankso]

Holy s**t this escalated quickly hahaha.

Calm down guys, I was not implying that Spain was the best thing that has happened to America... The Black Legend does not imply that Spain did nothing wrong in America, it just states that it was as bad as any other colonization effort of any European country. The book is an interesting and different perspective, and as I said in my first post, I don't personally agree with all that's written there. And of course you have to bear in mind that the book was written 100 years ago.

However when someone just says that the Spaniards killed millions, I mean, if they killed millions with the couple thousands of soldiers they brought there at that time, those must have been very good soldiers indeed. It's true that they brought over European diseases, but that would have been the same if the first to arrive were British, French, Germans or whoever. They killed thousands intentionally? Most probably, yes, like everyone else at that time would have. Millions? I don't think so.

And, you like it or not, some of the Spanish conqueror's that arrived there achieved incredible things with very limited resources and knowledge, and for me their histories and adventures were at least interesting. That doesn't mean that I am agree with all of the things that they did, of course!

Please, do not start on this thread a war about Spanish vs British empire, I would like to keep this thread about the book in question and any other books that may be related to the matter if you know any. Also it will be cool if we can have a civilized discussion, and I'm sorry if I've offended someone with my initial post, it was not my intention.

Have a nice day!

[Alonso Alvarado]

Talking about the spanish conquest in America. The spanish veteran soldiers didn´t go there. They fought during the european wars. They had all the money and looting they need in Europe. Who went then? People without oportunities in Spain and who needed a better future. Spaniards found tribus at war there. Oppresed tribes helped spaniards in the mexican conquest. The people who were destined to be sacrified in canibal ceremonies. Its a documented matter and unrefutable which horrorized the spaniards.

Did much indigenous die during the American Conquest? Yes.

Were much of them made slaves till The Crown set their rights? Yes.

Was it a genocide? No, you can see the miscegenation by your own eyes and there are indigeous communities alive nowadays. But the most of indigenous communities are repudied socially (For example in Mexico).

And is this margination due to spaniards nowadays? No, and try to talk about it is a bad joke.  

Are the spaniards responsible of argentinian genocide of indigenous tribes in desert after the Argentinian Independence? No. It happened in 1833 and 1834 during "La Campaña de Rosas al Desierto" against Pampas, Ranqueles, Borogas, Manzaneros and Tahuelches.

Can we talk about a cultural genocide? Yes, but we can talk about the same with another cultures like the celtic, iberian, celtiberian, lusitanian, gauls, cartaginian, spartan, etc. Its something normal when you are conquested by a stronger culture.

Can we see the same miscegenation in the british conquest in North America? No.

Can we see the same number of indigeous communities there? No, due to they killed the most of indigenous tribes they found.

Did The British Crown recognize the indigenous rights like The Spanish Crown did? No.

Do you want historical documents about it? You can go to the Archivo General de Simancas and Archivo General de Indias in Sevilla and read all you like.

We can see how the history is rewritten today more than ever with political interests.

So... What are we talking about? You can launch your book to the bonfire.

[Vernon Merrill]

Its always amusing to me when we try and ascribe our modern concepts of morality and world views onto people of a far different age....

The world was harsher then.  The people had to be as well....

[Ankso]

2 hours ago, Alonso Alvarado said:

So... What are we talking about? You can launch your book to the bonfire.

I don't understand this last sentence... Are you talking about the book I posted? Because it agrees with a lot of what you said in your post...

It's sad but one of the worst things that happened to some of the indigenous people in South America in the 19th century was the independence from the Spanish Crown... Once they lost the protection of the Crown, their lands were plundered and a lot of lives were lost. Again, I'm not saying that the Spanish Crown was a good thing for them in earlier centuries either...

[Alonso Alvarado]

I´m sorry mate, i was talking in general and didn´t explain it well. I was talking about the modern history revisionism with political intentions and how people trust in what new books say, forgetting there are a lot of written books about that epoch and principally a lot of historical documents. Much people dont know Bartolomé de las Casas (dominican friar or black friar) fought for indigenous rights (yes, the Catholic Church). The slavery was not permited but it happeded in fact on hidden mode. That was what Bartolomé de las Casas denounced in his texts. It was a slow process from Carlos I edict of 1530 which prohibiting slavery to New Laws for Treatment and Preservation of the Indigenous of 1542. Felipe II tried to fight the abuses with indigenous and worked to enforce the laws. He created the administrative office to protect the indigenous named "Protector de indios" in 1589. Was it the solution? Sure not, but it was a good brake for abuses. America was far away from Europe in that epoch and it was not easy for king to control it. The criolla elite would be the brain of the later Independence in the 19th century. British would have problems to control their colonies in America and lost them too.

Talking about the silver and gold from America, they went to european bankers hands to pay the European Wars during centuries (much of them went to british pirates and corsairs hands too). Spain was in bankruptcy due to that. 

I´m sure your book talks about things like that and the spanish cultural legacy in America, that is the most important.

I find it paradoxical to see how people are insulted by what happened centuries ago and they forget the world disaster that killed at least 60 million people less than one century ago. Yes, I was talking about the Second World War. That happened in our moden world full of human rights.

[LegoLarry]

 Biggest killer of South American tribes during Spanish conquest was smallpox, Typhoid and other diseases brought with European sailors.

Local populations had no resistance.

Not something that could be predicted at time.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/salmonella-aztec-epidemic-millions-killed-1545-dna-enteric-fever-typhoid-central-america-a8161421.html

https://www.pastmedicalhistory.co.uk/smallpox-and-the-conquest-of-mexico/

 

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by Doh