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Liq

HP values a tad off? (Endy - Surp)

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That Endymion has 2.4 times the HP of the surprise (would be even more if Surprise was teak - WO aswell ; the wo/wo trim buffs its HP).. While being faster and having a way higher basemast thickness, and bigger guns, more crew aswell. A little bit unbalanced me thinks? Or should it be considered a given fact that endy wrecks the Surprise?

I've also heard complaints about the Essex being next to useless now - not sure about that as I barely sail her.

Are HP values fix now or are they still gonna be reworked?

Edited by Liq

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Something somewhere went terribly wrong :D
Essex indeed lacks Hitpoints compared to the standard frigates (e.g. belle poule) though she provides much more firepower.
For some reason all 18pdr frigates a weaker on HP than their 12pd brethren...

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  • 49m 1300 Tons burthen super-frigate (almost super frigate)
  • vs
  • 35m (some sources 38m) 400 tons burthen light corvette
     
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4 minutes ago, admin said:
  • 49m 1300 Tons burthen almost super-frigate
  • vs
  • 35m (some sources 38m) 400 tons burthen light corvette
     

ok so the HP factor would match I guess.

but doesn't that also mean that the manouverability should be like 2.5 times as good on the surprise? turnrate 3.19 vs 4.01 - when it should be something like 2.0 vs 4.0?

Edited by Liq

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3 minutes ago, Liq said:

ok so the HP factor would match I guess.

but doesn't that also mean that the manouverability should be like 2.5 times as good on the surprise? turnrate 3.19 vs 4.01 - when it should be something like 2.0 vs 4.0?

I don´t think the turnrate should change proportional and the difference seems just fine to me. Keep the really light boats in mind of your suggestion please. They would have a turnate of a dervish then.

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The values of the Surprise must be indeed definitely compared to the other 9-pdr (gun) ships (Niagara, LRQ, Cerberus, Pandora, La Renommée, Hercules), not to the heavier 12 to 18-pdr frigates (from the Belle Poule up to the Trincomalee). All these 9-pdr ships could be excluded from this group of the "5th rate" frigates.

Edited by LeBoiteux
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Just now, LeBoiteux said:

The values of the Surprise must be indeed definitely compared to the other 9-pdr (gun) ships (Niagara, LRQ, Cerberus, Pandora, La Renommée, Hercules), not to the heavier 12 to 18-pdr frigates (from the Belle Poule up to the Trincomalee). All these 9-pdr ships could be excluded from this group of the "5th rate" frigates.

LRQ and Niagara are sixth rates.  I don't think we need to worry about this.  There is nothing wrong with a variation in the 5th rate class.

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Essex needs hp buff. My teak teak one only has a bit more than 5k hp. That’s to less for its weight class.

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18 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

LRQ and Niagara are sixth rates.  I don't think we need to worry about this.  There is nothing wrong with a variation in the 5th rate class.

We've already had this discussion. I won't repeat my arguments.

I will only add that the 9-pdr "frigates/corvettes" (Cerberus, Pandora, La Renommée, Hercules, Surprise) have already been excluded de facto from the 5th rare frigates in the game, by being classified "shallow water frigates", the only ones able to sail in the shallows, joining LRQ and Niagara. Now I only advocate a change of name/rate/classification for them that would show this particularity.

Edited by LeBoiteux
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I think the problem here is not the HP values alone. It is the combination of all values including speed bein better on the Endymion. That may be somewhat accurate from a historical standpoint but I am not sure it is good from a balancing aspect... Not that those two ships should be anywhere near competitive to each other. But overall the Endymion seems a tad too strong. Port boni have little effect on this comparison btw. Both ships were built in the same port.
 

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I agree with the current HP values of the Surprise. but what about the Essex, as mentioned here several times? Should she not get a little more HP?

Also, it is maybe not so good to calculate it only by the displacement values. The current damage model should also be considered in the HP values. I think, more important is the number of broadsides of other frigates here in the game they can resist. And these are not much with the current HP values. So I have my doubts if it was so historic.

Edited by Holm Hansen

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We can't just talk about specific ships and ask for an adjustment.  Any adjustments must be done across the entire list of ships.  If you adjust the Essex...where does that put the PFrig...etc.

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57 minutes ago, Liq said:

ok so the HP factor would match I guess.

but doesn't that also mean that the manouverability should be like 2.5 times as good on the surprise? turnrate 3.19 vs 4.01 - when it should be something like 2.0 vs 4.0?

turnrate is affected by ship length and speed.

3.0 turn rate of a ship 40m long and another 33m long does not mean they will turn effectively on the same distance. The Mass may also affect the effective turn of a ship. turn rate is actually only a multiplier, dont look at it as a definitive value.

 

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1 hour ago, Liq said:

I've also heard complaints about the Essex being next to useless now - not sure about that as I barely sail her.

😘

I will make a post soon more generic

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1 hour ago, admin said:
  • 49m 1300 Tons burthen super-frigate (almost super frigate)
  • vs
  • 35m (some sources 38m) 400 tons burthen light corvette
     

three decks says, 1072 surp and 1277 endymion

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Surprise used to be one of my favorite frigates. With the new damage model I’ve accepted that I’ll really only have a use for her in the shallows. You simply can’t balance small frigates to be useful against larger frigates without them becoming vastly OP in the shallows. 

Surprise and all the other 9pd “frigates” are effectively just 6th rates these days. I don’t care what the card says, I just look at how the ships stack up against each other. (Which is why Constitution is a 4th rate still, in my eyes).

With the new damage model, bigger guns = winner of the fight. With the old damage model, Surprise (with mega mast mods) stood a chance against that Endy if the Endy skipper was bad. Rakes and careful angling, sneaky chainshot, etc. could net you a win. Now all the Endy has to do is land one or two broadsides and the Surprise is done.

Not a good damage model, IMO. But here we are with it. Point enough guns in the right general direction and spam broadsides, you’ll eventually win. Old damage model prioritized skilled tactics and experience. The new model places more emphasis on ship type and gear. 

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since we're on the topic admin that tons burthen should determine the HP on a ship, by your logic if used today since you have classified the USS Frigates as 3rd rates (they never engaged Ships of the Line 4th rates etc), you're basically implying that the Knock Nevis oil tanker is on par with Bush CVN77 since the oil tanker is 80 meters longer.

My problem with this is that a frigate is completely different built apart from a ship of the line which is made withstand and deflect alot of firepower while at the same time deliver devastating broadsides, and frigates were made to fight frigates

Edited by Wyy

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Our Surprise is a French ship made in 1794. At that time, French didn't use rate classification anymore. According to their classification, she was just a "9-pdr Corvette", meaning she was too light and small to be considered as a frigate. in the 1790's, French frigates carried whether 12-pdr guns (L'Hermione) or 18-pdr guns (L'Hébé), never 9-pdr guns while this corvette carried only 24x 9-pdr guns and 6x 4-pdr guns.

British captured her, refitted her and added a few guns/carronades, then called her a "something" and classify her as a ?-th rate (I don't know... and care 😁).

Edited by LeBoiteux

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Endymion was a ''one of a kind'' ship with peculiar performance. I'd rather have it as extremely rare in game and see a few more 18 pdrs frigates from late 18th-early-19th centry 

(Appollo or Lively class, Frecnh Pallas class and other nations of course.

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As much as I like the surprise. She is a shallow water ship and should be compared as such. When compared to other shallow ships the surprise is a very powerful ship. It would be like comparing a third rate to a first, while a third can out manuver a first and win typically the first will have a large advantage.

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