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Intrepido

The consequences of newest BRs for Port Battles.

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They have tried to bring back the 25v25 Trafalgar battles, but at the same time they have made it harder to craft the 1st rate ships needed to be competitive in these big battles and harder to get the good woods to craft them and when you add into the mix the expense to replace lost ships it just makes it not worth even attempting to compete unless you have a good chance of winning. So basically the battle is decided before any shots are fired. If you know you are up against a nation with a tanked out fleet and you cannot match that then there is no point in turning up. At least with the limiting BR there may have been an ideal setup but there were also alternative options where you could go for greater numbers rather than higher BR ships.

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If ships are cheap to build, then 25v25 is fine. Problem now is that ships aren't so cheap, lots of player's can't afford first rates so they feel locked out of RvR and don't bother logging in.

Every time some genius proposes to make first rates more expensive because it'll "bring more diversity to OW and PB because not all players can afford first rates, so they'll sail smaller ships," I can't help but wonder if they remember its a game we're playing. If you take away a player's fun (some players only like SOLs), he won't go looking for fun in other ships, he'll go looking for fun in other games. /rant over

 

Anyways, I'd always thought that all ports should be 25v25 unlimited BR (or something close to that). But, if you, the owning clan, want a smaller BR limit in the battle, you can pay for it in the port management screen. Set whatever BR you want (2k being the lower limit). But with the new frontlines system, I can see how that would effectively prevent some nations from advancing.

Personally, I was tired of fiddling with fleet comps to get in the most meta ships, with a few troll ships to go cap and kite circles. Diversity does not equal balance or fun. How many times did someone get thrown into a Herc or Requin and told to cap circles, when they'd rather be in a SOL being useful in the brawl? But you had to tell them 'no, we need our best players in SOLs, and you don't make the cut.' Even if that is never explicitly said, its implied. 

 

My suggestion, as it always has been, is to never force players to bring a diverse fleet, but to instead encourage them to do so. 

  • Implement a shallow circle in battle. This circle would be over a gradient bottom where the outer edges could allow 3rd rates to float, the middle allows fourth rates, and closer to shore only 5th rates can still float.
  • You don't HAVE to capture that one circle to win. You can, as now, win with only 2 circles. But if you bring all big ships and no smaller ships to contest that circle, then you're forfeiting those points to your enemy if he brings small ships. If the defender doesn't bring smaller ships, and you do, then you get that circle for free. 

This could be combined with maybe 8-15k BR limits on capitals, and you'd see diverse fleets again, but it wouldn't be the same Santi/Ocean + Buc + 3rd rate + Herc spam that it was before. (New meta spam would occur, of course, but it is what it is. At least the smaller ships would get to fight some and have a use beyond zipping around to cap circles and kite.

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1 hour ago, Archaos said:

They have tried to bring back the 25v25 Trafalgar battles, but at the same time they have made it harder to craft the 1st rate ships needed to be competitive in these big battles and harder to get the good woods to craft them and when you add into the mix the expense to replace lost ships it just makes it not worth even attempting to compete unless you have a good chance of winning. So basically the battle is decided before any shots are fired. If you know you are up against a nation with a tanked out fleet and you cannot match that then there is no point in turning up. At least with the limiting BR there may have been an ideal setup but there were also alternative options where you could go for greater numbers rather than higher BR ships.

Trafalgar wasnt a battle full of first rates.

And the most important thing, for the nostalgia boys, you can always have battles of 25 oceans vs 25 oceans in the OW.

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I would still like the dev's to run an experiment having two separate battle ratings for port battles. The first BR would be for the combined number of 1st and 2nd rates allowed, and the second BR would be for 3rd rates and lower. I know it's somewhat of a lobby system, but I can't think of any other way in keeping the number of 1st and 2nd rate ships below the number of 3rd and lower rates. As Intrepido said, Trafalgar and most large naval battles were mostly composed of 3rd rates and a smaller number of 1st and 2nd rates.

 

Diversity adds tactical depth to port battles. I think that's a good thing.

 

 

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3rd rate should be a benchmark for PB.

As it was a workhorse in reality, as it should be here.

Biggest BR in the game beeing equivalent of 25x 3rd rate value (12,500 BR)

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9 hours ago, OjK said:

3rd rate should be a benchmark for PB.

As it was a workhorse in reality, as it should be here.

Biggest BR in the game beeing equivalent of 25x 3rd rate value (12,500 BR)

THIS makes sense.

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18 hours ago, Zlatkowar said:

I still believe that BR should not be a fixed value. Each ship should have a base BR, which can be increased or decreased depending on wood choice, weapons choice (medium/long/carro), upgrades installed, port bonuses, crew assigned (lesser BR if undercrewed), [insert whatever may fit in the calculation]. Pretty sure this would add to more diversity and more creativity in battle strategies.

This is one of the best proposals lately or even ever! Most of us have seen now often enough that a highly upgraded ship is way beyond its class. It might be complicated and needs time to adjust, but a true BR evaluation would do great service to the game. It could be tested with simple methods: Port bonuses increase the br linear to the improvement by a certain percentage.

Mods need to be individually weighed and get a percentage as well. I´d be happy to see this implemented and hope to see this proposal advertised by the community. Best wishes, Gene

PS Some might say now that it makes the planning of port battles more complicated. More complicated than what? Putting in 18 Oceans and 3 mortar brigs? A shallow argument.

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10 hours ago, OjK said:

3rd rate should be a benchmark for PB.

As it was a workhorse in reality, as it should be here.

Biggest BR in the game beeing equivalent of 25x 3rd rate value (12,500 BR)

That is a good all around BR but I still think larger BR ports are ok for some capitals. Like the 55 pt capitals should be the largest BR in game wither other capitals 45 points be next in line than the 35, 25, 15 point ports.  Doing the same with the shallows ports..  maybe some of the 15 pts ports are around 5k BR so they can be owners and defended by a small  

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9 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

That is a good all around BR but I still think larger BR ports are ok for some capitals. Like the 55 pt capitals should be the largest BR in game wither other capitals.

Still should be below 16k to have it a mix of 1st and 2nd rates.

Everything higher, will be a mono battle

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Solve the Problem, not the symptoms

“I think high br pbs are supposed to reduce the sizes of screening fleets…”

is this statement correct made by @Beeekonda? If so, as it worked…?

 

Realistic code mechanic overlays…

PBs and @Admin wanting to talk about Port raids means over complex hurdle solutions to fleet diversification won’t fly. The idea must try to work for all situations. Limiting ship rate numbers into a battle instance maybe too complex as the SERVER needs to decide who’s in and who’s out with clan bias, but I’ll expand on this area further down.

Having a ‘Shallow’ Circle suggested by William Death is a good fixed protocol and easy to code. However, circle capture time between a fast DLC 6th rate and a 3rd rate would be the same. Diversity would lead to just 1x tactical DLC ship in the fleet. A time gradient hurdle, the bigger the ship quicker the capture would work. It would add coding complexity.  

If Beeekonda’s statement is right and please tell me otherwise, then just lowering BR Port values doesn’t solve the real problem. It will create another outside. The BR Ship rating on a linear fashion means it will force the Fleet Admiral into taking the higher rated ship of the line…

BR Problems…

On a 25,000BR Port Fleet limit of 25ships each…

L’O or Santi at 900BR means 27.7 ships. Buc’s at 700 and Bellona at 500 become irrelevant and you only take L’Os. The BR system implies also that 2x Bellona’s are worth 1x L’O. In a general PvP 2v1, will the Bellona’s win every/most of the time?

If all three players are at the same skill levels (whatever that is), then I’d say yes. If you disagree with this statement then say. The BR System says the battle is 1,000v900 so, we should expect 5.5 or 6 wins out of 10 for the Bellona not 9 or 10 wins...

This means the current BR comparison values as a measure is somewhat flawed. The BR measure is to compare 1v1 against one another. We are using it to compare 25v25, this is the actual problem.

 

I pointed out earlier in this thread with a link to the Trafalgar battle. Has a rule of thumb, First Rate ships rarely sailed in a fleet without support? The real-life reasons are obvious, but the NA-OW BR system doesn’t or cannot account for this.

For the Game to replicate more realistic compositions then the BR System should use a logarithmic scaling measure. I use some numbers that might be way off. At the time for every one first rated ship built, how many thirds were constructed by the same Nation? BR doesn’t account for this, think of the sheer material amounts alone. Keeping the PORT BR on the high side to STOP screening fleet issues still work with the new scale…

A Port BR 25,000 means a fleet could field 5x L’Os only…! The second-rate number maybe still too high at 2,000 but you see the point.

 

Lobby choice or clan system…

This is a hard problem to resolve and with any PB engagement it must have a Fleet Admiral. Imagine my dark ALT joins the PB fleet drop-in with an L’O taking up 5,000BR points. That’s the downside with this solution I offer. A work around might be a Fleet Admiral skill book. This guy specializes in fleet battles with its boost like in EvE, becoming an assigned leader. Would be nice to see but again needs a complex input…

https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26873-idea-pt24-norfolk-nnimitz-and-the-facs-skill-book/?tab=comments#comment-580445

 

 Norfolk.

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Flexible br where you have a certain bucket of br to spend and whats left of it skips 1 rate down. I made a more detailed post about it

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What would happend to the game if we had a 2 system for Pb’s. A frontline system and the old one. Think something like this. Each nation may have 1-3 ports behind a frontline system.(not sure what the right Numbers is)It is from the start desided witch ports it can be. Those ports are protected by buffed forts, and very hard to take by another nation, as long the defenders show up in force. Let all players that help build and pay for the upkeep have acces to the bonus. So let it have a running cost. 

The rest of the map, the clan that have taken the country capitol, can deside to lock it to a frontline as we see now, but at a High cost, ore Let the region be with out a frontline stysten, with a variaty of br, and can be attacked as we used to. But then to a much lower cost.

First surgestion is partly selvish, because it would help smal Nations, not to be at the mercy of the Big nations.

The second surgestion I Think simply will have the potential to get more RvR activity on the map.

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Devs please, reconsider current BRs.

 

Facts:

-Oceans can only be sailed by max ranks. 

-Oceans is only one ship out of 50. What about the other ships? what a waste if we only are sailing oceans in RVR all the time.

-Oceans is expensive, which favours big nations or clans. Buc is half the price, for example.

-Less BR on port battles (10-18k) doesnt mean less players, just smaller ships. 

 

 

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In the old system, recently in the shallow port battles you already saw a spam of surprises. It’s human nature. People will go into a fight with as many advantages as possible. 

I rather have a nice brawl in all 1st rates than play the kiting game capturing circles and running around trolling. 

Maybe balance the 1st rates so you have a little more variety of that rate of ship. 

And why not reintroduce the 4th rate port battles like before?

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3 minutes ago, Simon Cadete said:

I rather have a nice brawl in all 1st rates than play the kiting game capturing circles and running around trolling. 

Maybe balance the 1st rates so you have a little more variety of that rate of ship. 

And why not reintroduce the 4th rate port battles like before?

This ^

Give reasons to sail something other than Ocean/Santi in port battles. Capturing circles with small ships or fitting in a few more players isn't good enough reason.

Thats part of the reason why I liked the old Martello tower Port Battles. You brought a fleet of big ships and you fought to the death. May the best fleet win. I understand devs put a lot of work into the new PBs with land and circles, and thats nice. Maybe the Martello tower "Port Battles" could come back as some sort of raid feature that economically hurts the clan that you attack....or maybe just some kind of weekend event that happens a few times every Saturday and Sunday....seems a shame to let a fun mechanic like that collect dust (looks at the duel room/small battles room as well)

 

And although I personally didn't care for 4th rate PBs as much, I can definitely agree they were fun and good for the server as a whole. Especially since a nation could test their fleet in cheaper ships before risking their first rate fleet on a big port battle. 4th rates can be balanced to be cheap to build and RvR at 4th rate ports will probably increase. 


Its amazing how when ships are easy to replace, players tend to fight more....

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Also remember that there was no ship wipe so a lot of these players have a bunch of 1st rates sitting in their docks. After a full wipe you might no see a screenshot like the ones showed on this tread for a very, very long time. If ever...

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9 minutes ago, Simon Cadete said:

Also remember that there was no ship wipe so a lot of these players have a bunch of 1st rates sitting in their docks. After a full wipe you might no see a screenshot like the ones showed on this tread for a very, very long time. If ever...

Ofc you will. Not the first month. But you will and after that the nation that can fill pb with First Rate, where others can’t. Well guess they just will keep winning. But thats what devs want, so we got this unballanced game.

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40 minutes ago, Simon Cadete said:

Also remember that there was no ship wipe so a lot of these players have a bunch of 1st rates sitting in their docks. After a full wipe you might no see a screenshot like the ones showed on this tread for a very, very long time. If ever...

So naive. 

Give the game 2 months and you will see the exactly same screenshots again.

 

And william, your favorite ship is the santi so I understand you like the current BR.

But you know, not everyone likes to sail every time the same ship when he is going to play rvr.

I believe we were making a game for the many, not only for the ocean lovers.

 

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One way to "force" ship variety in PBs is to make the capture circles be in different depths. Make some ports have 1 capture circle in deep waters and the other 2 circles in shallows. Make some ports have 2 capture circles in deep and 1 circle in shallows. And make some ports have all 3 capture circles in deep water. And make these shallow water circles be far enough from deep waters that SoLs can't get near the defenders in those shallow circles.

Come to think of it, why do defenders even have to capture circles they already own by being the port owner?

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3 minutes ago, van der Decken said:

One way to "force" ship variety in PBs is to make the capture circles be in different depths. Make some ports have 1 capture circle in deep waters and the other 2 circles in shallows. Make some ports have 2 capture circles in deep and 1 circle in shallows. And make some ports have all 3 capture circles in deep water. And make these shallow water circles be far enough from deep waters that SoLs can't get near the defenders in those shallow circles.

Come to think of it, why do defenders even have to capture circles they already own by being the port owner?

I mean it is a lot simpler/easier just to adjust BR of port.

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On 5/7/2019 at 6:18 AM, Intrepido said:

Some pics first to ilustrate current state of things.

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You're filling up battles with 1st rates meaning you have too many players and not enough space in the battles. Limit each battle to a specific number of 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th rates and open up 2-3 more battle instances so you can fit everyone. 

Lowering BR without opening more instances will just make RVR less than what it currently is, which is already too small scale, as proof in these screenshots.

Once one battle hits 40 players a new one is opened, continue on the tally of BR sank, points scored and results of each battle are tallied together to determine a victor. All the benefit, no downsides OR downsizes. It's the way to go.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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