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Intrepido

The consequences of newest BRs for Port Battles.

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Posted (edited)

Some pics first to ilustrate current state of things.

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20k and 25k BR ports are providing us those screenshots.

20k allows up to 22 first rates and 25k is full fleets of 25 first rates. Some exceptions with the inclusion of mortar brigs to snipe on the distance first rates (which is pretty stupid to see btw).

 

As a consequence, almost full fleets of first rates with little diversity (mostly Oceans) in which the outcome is decided in one massive brawl. Circles become quite irrelevant, so as diversity and complexity of tactics.

Second and third rates have no place in battles where there can be so many first rates, so the side which come with those ships instead of first rates is screwed. Again, another advantage to the biggest nations.

 

Devs, if you really think all those 20-25 players like to sail always the same ship, the L'Ocean, for port battles and for hostility missions, then you are quite wrong. You have killed those players who like to sail other ships like Bucentaure, Bellona, frigates...

 

Furthermore, in my view, those engagements are neither historical neither fulfill the potential of limited BR on port battles. All your hard work and all those hundreds of posts of forum feedback on the issue throw in the bin in the lastest patch.

 

 

Discuss.

 

 

Edited by Intrepido
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The problem is that there will always be a meta ship, especially for the highest rates. So even if you put hard limits for ships, that if i recall correctly nobody wanted, you will still get for example 5 Oceans, 5 Bucs, 5 Bellonas 5 Wasas etc etc...  

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16 minutes ago, Sella22 said:

The problem is that there will always be a meta ship, especially for the highest rates. So even if you put hard limits for ships, that if i recall correctly nobody wanted, you will still get for example 5 Oceans, 5 Bucs, 5 Bellonas 5 Wasas etc etc...  

We will always have meta ships, the thing is not having port battles with 2 ships, Oceans and mortar brig.

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Posted (edited)

Meta ships are not the issue. There is simply no reason showing up to a battle with half the ships of the other side. The BR is so high that as said if you don't bring all firsts your just shooting your self in the foot. It was far better when BR was lower. You had to think about your PB line up and we had more ship types of all rates being used. I would rather have a battle with 4 sets of 5 meta ships then 20 of one type.

Edited by Aster
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56 minutes ago, Aster said:

Meta ships are not the issue. There is simply no reason showing up to a battle with half the ships of the other side. The BR is so high that as said if you don't bring all firsts your just shooting your self in the foot. It was far better when BR was lower. You had to think about your PB line up and we had more ship types of all rates being used. I would rather have a battle with 4 sets of 5 meta ships then 20 of one type.

Agreed.

A 10 man group can't even fill a 10k br regional deep water. 

No group is going to attempt a port battle if they can't even fill a port.

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Posted (edited)

Almost two weeks ago.

Edited by OjK
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This is a recurring mechanic issue and should’ve have been resolved by now. What you’d like to see is a better mix of ships (realistic) within the two fleets. You’d never see two full blown first rates face off against each other. It just looks ridiculous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Trafalgar

This is one of the largest fleet on fleet engagements. The numbers show 27 v 33 total ships of the line, but it was mainly 3rd rates. This makes sense as the First rates are a gun platform only and needed the protection.

The BR system doesn’t replicate realistic fleet compositions of the time. @Sella22 highlights the negativity surrounding hard ship limits received by the community. @Aster point regarding too high a BR ceiling forcing both sides into all or none... looks very true indeed, why bother going with anything less than an L’O?

I’ve pointed this out before, but BR limits regarding ship rates need to be more logarithmic in scale. First Rates at 900BR, Second 700 and thirds 500 compound the issue with such a high PORT BR Limit.

Would something like this as a suggestion help, reduce PORT BR ceilings by 25%. Then rescale the ships of the line to First Rates 5,000BR, Second Rates 2,000 and Thirds remain at 500... It changes the tactics, is a L’O worth 10 Bellona’s with the lower port limits?

Just a thought.

 

Norfolk

 

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I think high br pbs are supposed to reduce the sizes of screening fleets, but it definitely took tactical depth and variety.

2 minutes ago, Norfolk nChance said:

 

 

why bother going with anything less than an L’O?

 

 

Santi is better all around :P

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37 minutes ago, Beeekonda said:

I think high br pbs are supposed to reduce the sizes of screening fleets, but it definitely took tactical depth and variety.

Santi is better all around :P

Santi like many other good fighting ships are hidden behind RNG chest drops for the perk so you won't see many of them.

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This isn’t only a byproduct of BR, it’s also of the combat model. Bigger ships with higher gun weights will always have a huge advantage. So if you’re not bringing first rates you’re dead. 

So regardless of what you set the BR to you’ll still see a preponderance of large ships, especially now that with port bonuses you can have those line ships pushing 14 knots under special builds.

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BR Limits must be lowered to somewhere as it was before. I dont understand the intention of the devs with making 20K or 25K BR with mono fleets !? Most players want diversity, not mono 1st rate fleets!

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Just now, Sven Silberbart said:

BR Limits must be lowered to somewhere as it was before. I dont understand the intention of the devs with making 20K or 25K BR with mono fleets !? Most players want diversity, not mono 1st rate fleets!

A player had nostalgia of the old 25 mono fleet. Unfortunately, admin read his post.

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The change in PB BRs was a big step back in PB mechanics. The solution before was much better because also smaller nations and clans could fight PBs and the diversity of ships was great.

@ devs: Please switch it back to the old system.

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Posted (edited)

Part of my enjoyment with the dynamic BR ports was trying to figure out a ship comp that worked....  no more.  The large mono fleets of the fine woods patch era worked because ships were cheap to build and upgrades/perks were generally uniform and did not play as huge of a factor.  That is not the case anymore.  20k / 25k BR on a large majority of the deep water ports while making 1st rates more difficult to produce was an astonishingly bad idea.  

I'd like to think that the game should find an accommodation for both fleets like this and the smaller BR ports with more diversity.  Maybe only a handful of ports need to be 20k?   There needs to be regions on the map that don't require 25 folks in 1st rates.

 

Edited by Severus Snape
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I still believe that BR should not be a fixed value. Each ship should have a base BR, which can be increased or decreased depending on wood choice, weapons choice (medium/long/carro), upgrades installed, port bonuses, crew assigned (lesser BR if undercrewed), [insert whatever may fit in the calculation]. Pretty sure this would add to more diversity and more creativity in battle strategies.

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Posted (edited)

I dont know what happened but in the end of 2017 PBs was diversified. Portbattles were fought with all three 1st rates. Victory was still a good ship for PBs. And 2nd rates often participated, even the pavel but the Buch was more used,. And the Wasa, 3rd rate, was used a lot. All PBs had wasas. Sometime more wasas than 1st rates. And many PBs had one or two 4th or 5th rates and 1 or two mortar brigs.

Now it is L Ocean spam. Just as all hostility missions is just L Ocean missions today. You fight with L Oceans against bots that mainly is L Oceans. 

We need to find a way to get more diversity in the Port Battles.

(But ok now we have three different kind of L Oceans instead. the best are those with port bonuses. they are used for PBs. The second best are those with Lo-WO they are used for important missions and hostility missions and screening. The rest (oak for example) are crap L Oceans for OW battles. A kind of "diversity", one can say.)





 

Edited by Ligatorswe
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42 minutes ago, Zlatkowar said:

I still believe that BR should not be a fixed value. Each ship should have a base BR, which can be increased or decreased depending on wood choice, weapons choice (medium/long/carro), upgrades installed, port bonuses, crew assigned (lesser BR if undercrewed), [insert whatever may fit in the calculation]. Pretty sure this would add to more diversity and more creativity in battle strategies.

Now this is very good! Varying BR in PB, good idea, that 5/5 full port bonus famous L'Oceans needs to have lots of BR. 

Why not limit maximum ship numbers? 

10 x 1st rate for bigger PB? So rest is filled with other ships, thus maximum PB BR needs to be lower. 

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1 hour ago, Zlatkowar said:

I still believe that BR should not be a fixed value. Each ship should have a base BR, which can be increased or decreased depending on wood choice, weapons choice (medium/long/carro), upgrades installed, port bonuses, crew assigned (lesser BR if undercrewed), [insert whatever may fit in the calculation]. Pretty sure this would add to more diversity and more creativity in battle strategies.

Good idea: but complex to really balance and therefore highly subject to exploiting.

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1 hour ago, Intrepido said:

A player had nostalgia of the old 25 mono fleet. Unfortunately, admin read his post.

I'm glad we have some ports with the BR to have 25 man port battles, but I do agree that some BR spread needs to be made.  Less important ports get maybe a smaller BR and more important ports get the high BR they have now.  It was the 5K ports that a small elite clan could take and hold that was bad.  LR was a prime example of that being in the middle of US coast line and had such a small BR that it was hard to fight that even though the nation could field 25+.

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a circle in a shallow area ...? where the big ships can't get ...?

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As I see it, just reducing from 25k to 18k and from 20k to 14k will be an improvement.

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1 hour ago, o7Captain said:

Maybe give limited number of first rates which can join PB ?

can only do that if you go to a loby system for them, other wise who gets those 1st rates and what if some one takes the slots with crappy version while you got others with better ones?

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4 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

can only do that if you go to a loby system for them, other wise who gets those 1st rates and what if some one takes the slots with crappy version while you got others with better ones?

With the clan based system you and ensure certain folks will be getting in.  This isn't an issue

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