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WYSIWYG RoE - Bring back 2-min join-timer

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On 3/1/2019 at 8:38 AM, Mr. Doran said:

 

WYSIWYG is the most equitable  and reasonable PVP system that is possible to have but still does not make PVP any more likely to happen. People will always gank given the chance to which is pretty much the antithesis of generating PVP. BR limits only serve to try to enforce additional equability which is to encourage more people to PVP.  If the end goal is to get as many people to play PVP as possible anyways then what on God's green Earth is the point of having OW to begin with. Just give us a lobby system back already and let us have as much PVP as we could possibly consume. We run into this circular trap that WYSIWYG is the only reasonable system that we can have but it simultaneously just turns OW into a lobby. It is constantly bickered about how there must be "content" to get people to access the PVP content but what no one wants to admit is the PVP is, has been, only ever will be the only content. 

Thematically appropriate ROE as you mention is one an angle that I feel since the beginning of OW is one that is more often ignored in favor of "I want my 23 friends with me to rape you and I want them here now". WYSIWYG is not only the only realistic practical option but it has always been the one that is more thematically appropriate to the era. The EVE mentality of being apart of some military-industrial complex sent to fight in a death ball of hundreds to thousands of ships just does not feel right in the environment of Naval Action. The ROE does its job with keeping with the theme but it does nothing and will do nothing to getting people to access PVP. 

 

 

On 2/23/2019 at 12:58 PM, Mr. Doran said:

 

    It has been openly said by few but likely is known in the hearts of everyone that OW is just a glorified lobby. So much time has been spent trying to put forth a system that can broker equitable PVP because PVP is, has been, and will only ever be the only content Naval Action has to offer. The amount of time, effort, and discussion spent on trying to produce an ROE system that can provide equitable PVP is an indictment to the fact that OW is just a glorified lobby. OW is fundamentally the worst delivery system that can possibly be imagined in order to deliver that content with any level of efficiency.

 

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11 minutes ago, --Privateer-- said:

This whole thread seems to be full of people with the same issue: They were doing some sort of uneven battle with some amount of BR open on the enemy side and then a bunch of enemies joined and they lost. I'll admit, maybe there's an issue with the BR being exceeded too much in the opposite direction after 2min. However, that seems like a minor balancing issue in a otherwise great system. The idea that the whole system should be scrapped over such an issue seems to be more out of spite over losing a battle than out of a actual desire to do what's best for the game.

Can honestly say I never once lost a ship due to the 20 minutes timer. I rarely sank ships due to it either because I generally try to stay out of ganks. They aren't fun in my opinion.

The reason I contest your statements is because the current RoE is too easy to exploit by all sorts of asshats.

And you can show screens of you beating the crap out of newbies and or noobs 1v6 all day long. Truth is if those were SNOW tags ( or HAVOC or ALOHA or any other above average skilled PvP clan) you would end up sunk every single time without getting a single kill. Any average player would end up dead regardless of who ganks him because fighting those odds takes a lot of skill as well as completely inept enemies.

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56 minutes ago, --Privateer-- said:

Nah, I just don't mind a little bit of extra BR on the enemy side.

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Hmm, as you are showing off... 

Meaningless to discuss anything with you, you are a waste of time. 

I do not give a shit how good pvp you are, trying to make ROE better for all. 

With this mindset you keep playing with same 50 pvp guys, but you will not have mercuries, pandoras and snows to sink. 

May be you fight against drone and moscal, and put screenshot of how you do not mind few br more, sinking their 2 first rates in your fat L'Ocean. 

Keep going like this... 

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3 hours ago, Wyy said:

you mean the just enough to bait outside of LT and jump in at 2:59 timer? ahh yeah that one, really balanced :) besides if you sail in a group, stick closer then and it wouldnt make sense to be on the edge of cuba reaching a battle over at hispaniola in time

Personally I feel like if you're stupid enough to try and PVP directly outside the busiest freeport in the game you deserve whatever happens.  But that's just me.  

The 2min join timer simply wasn't long enough and is not "what you see is what you get" because players upwind could SEE the battle, but sometimes not get back to it.  An additional minute would make a world of difference to OW battles while impacting the overall game minimally.  Unless you of course PVP outside tortue...  

Edited by Socialism
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However is the RoE you guys choose for the release, it MUST be chrystal clear, getting the info BEFORE joining the battle with a visible timer and what rules applied, cant go around with a calculator and making probability calculation before attacking.

This current "nobody really knows" rule is making even harder to grind 4  new players and making PVP like a russian roulette more than a decent fight, more PvP fight for sure, but more gank to and less proper enjoyable 1-1 fight

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2 hours ago, Socialism said:

The 2min join timer simply wasn't long enough and is not "what you see is what you get" because players upwind could SEE the battle, but sometimes not get back to it.

So you want to diminish the importance of wind in this sailing game?

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18 minutes ago, jodgi said:

So you want to diminish the importance of wind in this sailing game?

Don't be obtuse. This has to do with finding and participating in PvP for the majority of average players out there. Anything you do to frustrate players who are looking for PvP is bad for the game.

I can't believe that you would argue against anything that encourages people to fight more, even if it doesn't fit your "honorable" preference of arranged duels outside of La Tortue?

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51 minutes ago, jodgi said:

So you want to diminish the importance of wind in this sailing game?

Isn’t having a 20 minute join timer diminishing the importance of wind even more while exaggerating the effect  of OW time compression?  I think we must choose the lesser of two weevils.

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1 minute ago, Sparkydog said:

two weevils

How long have you waited to use that?  Yes the 20 minute timer is much worse. 

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44 minutes ago, Capitalism said:

Don't be obtuse. This has to do with finding and participating in PvP for the majority of average players out there. Anything you do to frustrate players who are looking for PvP is bad for the game.

I can't believe that you would argue against anything that encourages people to fight more, even if it doesn't fit your "honorable" preference of arranged duels outside of La Tortue?

Lol. I can actually keep two thoughts in my head at the same time. I have always wanted pvp-on-demand but I've never wanted to dismantle OW with such content. Yet again I'm dumbfounded by the fact that an arena guy is fighting for true OW while OW fans would throw it under the bus for moar PvP.

 

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I don't like the BR calculation being part of ROE. Seems gamey. As does 20 minutes timers. However, due to the extremely low population, especially during North American primetime sometimes the longer timer is the only thing that allows anyone to get any action. But put 1000 captains on the water and 20 minutes will be horrific. Lower timer to 10 minutes now and lower it again if we get an influx of active players.

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Why not go with this plan? It seems popular, the defender can still get reinforcements for 20min if they're being ganked. Seems like a win/win unless you're a ganker.

fo7PhAx.jpg

Edited by --Privateer--
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7 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

So you must be mostly on stronger side, to trap an enemy and you enjoy it. 

It's not showing off so much as responding to your unfounded claim about my play style.

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I'm kind of split on this topic

I do like evenish battles, think of massively uneven battle as a pure timewaste - as the outcome in those is usually clear

On the other hand I can also understand the players pleading for the NA OW Sandbox to not become a matchmaking ish style game - at least outside the patrol zones. After all it's your decision where you sail when with what ship(s).

The current implementation of "can join weaker side" seems a little off / weird though. Some Battle Ratings of frigates are not really representing their true strength. To my understanding, it's also possible to join an ongoing battle, e.g. 250 BR vs 300 BR, with ANY ship (also 1st rates?) on the weaker side? IMHO it should only allow you to reach a certain threshold of BR, say 1.5x the BR of the other side, and NOT just allow entrance to any ship as long as the side has lower BR.

Lastly I think the proposal made by Doran (linked above) should also be implemented. Tagging in a low br ship to let biggies catch up and thus warp gank isn't the idea of the whole thing, imho.

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58 minutes ago, --Privateer-- said:

Why not go with this plan? It seems popular, the defender can still get reinforcements for 20min if they're being ganked. Seems like a win/win unless you're a ganker.

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I'm not certain people actually understood how this will work. A Herc tags a Bellona. The battle closes after 2 minutes. The Herc kites the shit out of the Bellona wasting its time for an hour and 30 minutes. Maybe BR has to match within a certain percent? dunno.

I say, leave the battle open for 1 hour 30 minutes so the Bellona can get a faster ship in the battle to prevent this. Leaving it open also allows the Herc to get help from a larger ship to deal with the Bellona.

Just leave the battle open for both side for the entire time and no one will have an advantage of preventing enemy from joining.

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6 hours ago, Routan said:

I think admin allready have said this is the final RoE. It fits a war server. So think it should stay maybe. When port management is done, I think war is finished developing.

Think @admin allready know a war server just is for the few, so when they are done with port management, they will focus on peace server, where 90 % of the player will be if it is done right.

No it doesent fit a war server! It fits a server with 300 people online where a player can reinforce a battle which realistically would be days away, considering also that it wasnt direct communication over distance in the era of Age of Sail it makes it highly unrealistic.

I could stay behind a join timer longer for the side that owns the port in the vicinity of the battle because that would make sense, ships would actually sail out and help because firstly they would see the engagement from a far and they would probably have ships available.

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10 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Which is wrong because a smaller ship tags a larger one, holds him in battle for 19 minutes for his buddies to join, locking the battle behind them. Unquestionally broken mechanic that needs to be reverted, or made so the attacks can't pull someone for that long waiting for reinforcements across the map. 

If it had a hard cap, like 80% of the joining ships BR has to fit without going over the opposing sides BR, it would completely fix any problem that people are having.

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1 hour ago, van der Decken said:

I'm not certain people actually understood how this will work. A Herc tags a Bellona. The battle closes after 2 minutes. The Herc kites the shit out of the Bellona wasting its time for an hour and 30 minutes. Maybe BR has to match within a certain percent? dunno.

I say, leave the battle open for 1 hour 30 minutes so the Bellona can get a faster ship in the battle to prevent this. Leaving it open also allows the Herc to get help from a larger ship to deal with the Bellona.

Just leave the battle open for both side for the entire time and no one will have an advantage of preventing enemy from joining.

Hey genuis, what you are forgetting is that the Bellona cannot get reinforced anyways due to the BR preventing any joining on the Bellona anyways. Unless, as you already mentioned, you have some abomination tier ROE where battles are open for what may as well be indefinitely. Even "Admin" who used to go around ganking in rat Bellona ganking groups has acknowledged how utterly retarded an indefinite join window is.   

 

We may never see a sensible ROE again. But I can assure you, that you will never get your wish for indefinitely open battles. 

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1 hour ago, Mr. Doran said:

Unless, as you already mentioned, you have some abomination tier ROE where battles are open for what may as well be indefinitely. 

Are you sure that is not what people want. Maybe you should make another poll about it to find out more.

Edited by Velhelm Von Marrius

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Just spitballing here...

What about battle never closes for either side but the swords disappear 2-3 minutes after appearing in render range?

So if winds allow reinforcing, it can happen, but sword camping ganks would be harder and it would be impossible for one side to ride the timer for 29 minutes.

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4 hours ago, Velhelm Von Marrius said:

Are you sure that is not what people want. Maybe you should make another poll about it to find out more.

 

 

Is it Poe's Law at work?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, probably not this time. It is not a coincidence in late January-February 2015 that it was probably the fastest ROE turn-around we have ever had. But, a part of me wants to see that shit-show too one last time. 

 

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I would prefer battles always open, provided late joiners join far due to how much time passed outside battle :)

Up to 2 minutes normal joining spot, starting from 2 minutes, you can join but with passing time you will be further away from where battle started. 

Fastest ship 15 kt per hour, so 15 min. later, it is around 4 nautical miles which is 7 kilometers :)

So 15 min later a ship can join 7 kilometers away from where battle started. Numbers can be tweaked, and there can be a maximum fixed distance after 20 min. for joining battle. 

My other idea was, in OW, as time passes circles start to move away from swords. 

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