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Anolytic

WYSIWYG RoE - Bring back 2-min join-timer

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The issue of timers has been litigated and re-litigated ad nauseam. But I will not let it go yet. I have read both that the basic ROE and join timers are now settled, and also that they are still under review. Which of them that is true I don’t know.

I have already offered my opinion on timers, but I want to come with a suggestion as well.

We currently have 20 minute join timer - if the BR is uneven, and let’s face it, it usually is. Many players in my clan loves this ROE. Others, like me personally I hate it and I miss the good old 2-minute join timer. What I call the WYSIWYG ROE, because what-you-see-is-what-you-get. 

With the current ROE, I get attacked in my heavy frigate by a light frigate, far out to sea and with no land in sight. And then, just as I am about to get him low enough on sails that he can no longer outmaneuver me, a Bucentaure might join on his side and completely change the situation in battle, even after 15 minutes.

What I don’t like about this ROE is:

  • The uncertainty. Never knowing if someone will jump your battle, completely shifting the balance in an instance, or not.
  • The small battles that grow larger incrementally. You may have a battle where your BR is higher, so your opponent calls for reinforcements. And they bring a big ship, which opens up the battle for your side again, you call reinforcements and it switches sides again.
  • False security. Big battles are still uneven. In the highest BR-battles, even when one side is outmatched and calls for reinforcements, this only helps them to a degree. In the highest BR battles, <13% BR difference is still a lot. Even after getting reinforcements you may still be several lineships down compared to the opposing side.
  • Gamey tactics. Like small ships tagging and getting bigger ships as reinforcements after 10 minutes, turning it into a gank. Like ships dragging a fight towards the join area for their side so that their reinforcements can join on top of you. Like dragging the initial stages of fights out past the 20 minute mark to be sure of no interference.

 

Split the Map

What if we could have parts of the map with 20 minutes automatic 2-sided signalling ROE like now, and other parts of the map with the good old WYSIWYG ROE? 

We already have special zones of the map with a special Patrol Zone ROE, so it should be possible to implement. 

We could of course do this by simply dividing the map into an East ROE and West ROE (or South and North), with one ROE in one half of the map and the other ROE in the other half, but my idea would be different.

I would have the main ROE be WYSIWYG - 2 minute timers. In open sea, far from land the timer would be 2 minutes. And in the shallow regions of Bahamas it would be 2 minutes. 

However, in the waters of any county/region containing either A, a National Capital, or B, a fully upgraded (in the new port management) Regional Capital, the 20 minute automatic 2-sided signalling ROE would apply.

Thus, near all capitals, as well as some portion of other coastal areas, typically where clans have settled their crafting areas, the 20 minute ROE would apply, while more remote coasts, as well as the Bahamas and all stretches of Ocean would have the WYSIWYG ROE.

Alternatively the 20-minute reinforcement ROE could be applied not automatically to fully upgraded cities, but be a defensive option that the clan owning a regional Capital could apply (with a weeks cooldown) to the whole County/region.

There should be an indication on the screen when sailing in open world if you are in the coastal waters of a region/county where 20-minute ROE is applied.

This in my view could work to some degree to appease those that preferred the old ROE, and at the same time keep any benefits that is intended to PvP from the current ROE. It would mean that near capitals there would be 20 minutes reinforcements (for both sides) until even BR, and the same in other highly populated coastal waters. At the same time you could attack someone in the middle of the open sea, or in lower populated regions, without magical reinforcements jumping in 15 minutes into the battle.

Edited by Anolytic
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Nah, though I've been quite supportive of many of your essays on mechanics so far, this I'll have to disagree with you on. 

Three minute join timers were the goldilocks timers.  Just enough to hunt in groups but not so much that it was magical-teleport-in-from-anywhere.  And I'd add that I'd leave the undocking and leaving battle timer as they are so that you could still be somewhere waiting but not completely called in from out of the blue in order to defend a mate that was tagged right outside of your Outpost/Battle, etc.

In any case... We need one, consistent RoE, nothing that varies between zones, etc. This just breeds endless frustration, complacency, and bugginess. 

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Interesting proposal, but the 2 minute timer does not save players from gank. With the old system you had 3-4 ships ganking one without the possibility to get help in time for the gankers. So a return to the old system would just mean a shift in what side that can be ganked. The old system favoured the gankers. The new system means that gankers can be ganked. 🙂 (And that they can get inforcement)

I think the new system is better in my view. It leads to more PVP, since you can find battles for 20 minutes to join, in for example the PZ. The game needs more PVP and easy-to-find pvp, so I want to keep the current system.

Edited by Ligatorswe
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Guest

20min timer a very nice for big battles. I like it. don't remove it

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I hate 20 min. timer. Also aside from Pvp, Pve being subject to 20 min. is such a bad move. 

This 20 min. only favours coordinated groups. They will tag you with small ships, later join with force to destroy you. You can not underestimate a Hercules or Pandora, when you are fighting a strong and big enemy, those little ships with 32 carros will stern camp you to death. 

Battle has to close for ATTACKER only defender should get reinforcement if has lower BR, but who gives a shit? I prefer 3 min. timer all day all night compared to what we have. 

Line of sight plus 2 min should be the way to go.

So sad that such important part of the game has been a big problem for such a long time, and has not been even close to acceptable solution. 

Edited by AeRoTR
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4 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

This 20 min. only favours coordinated groups. They will tag you with small ships, later join with force to destroy you.

That's literally not how any of this works. After the first 2min, only the side with lower BR can be joined, and once the BR is exceeded the battle instantly locks. (unless it's exceeded by too much in which case the other side opens again to allow the BR to equalize further)

The 20 min join only ever makes battles more even, I'm sorry you can't gank stuff any more, learn to do even battles.

Also, there has been much more pvp since the 20min timer was added, I'm sure the devs have collected data on this, it's far superior to the old system.

 

 

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6 hours ago, --Privateer-- said:

That's literally not how any of this works. After the first 2min, only the side with lower BR can be joined, and once the BR is exceeded the battle instantly locks. (unless it's exceeded by too much in which case the other side opens again to allow the BR to equalize further)

The 20 min join only ever makes battles more even, I'm sorry you can't gank stuff any more, learn to do even battles.

Also, there has been much more pvp since the 20min timer was added, I'm sure the devs have collected data on this, it's far superior to the old system.

 

 

Okay I do understand. 

I have a L'Ocean, I get tagged by Bellona. 

900 BR vs 490 BR, enemy side is open? 

Another Hercules join enemy. 

900 vs 590 enemy side open

Pandora joins enemy

900 vs 690 enemy side open

17 min. from battle starts, 

Enemy is missing 210 BR, their side is open, my side is closed. 

900 vs 210 is %23 difference. 

Now it is 18 min. from battle starts, enemy 1st rate joined. Battle will be closed in 2 min. 

Correct me if I am wrong? 

How do you like this ROE, do I have any chance to call a friend after 20 min.? Even if I had a chance to call, I will already sank and he will be ganked next. 

This is a good coordination of how to gank with new ROE, a sure win for gankers. 

@admin is there anything wrong with my fictional scenario? 

Real experience I chased Moscal's 1st rate, he tagged a 4th rate. I joined, the 4th rate started to run, moscal tried stern camp my Ocean, did not work, he went for 4th rate, I chased for long time, 4th rate trying to escape. When 4th rate exits, I thought nice 1 vs 1 duel for us. I noticed drone with another 1st he joined few minutes ago, and battle was closed due to 20 min. I did not like it. 

 

Edited by AeRoTR
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1 hour ago, --Privateer-- said:

That's literally not how any of this works. After the first 2min, only the side with lower BR can be joined, and once the BR is exceeded the battle instantly locks. (unless it's exceeded by too much in which case the other side opens again to allow the BR to equalize further)

The 20 min join only ever makes battles more even, I'm sorry you can't gank stuff any more, learn to do even battles.

Also, there has been much more pvp since the 20min timer was added, I'm sure the devs have collected data on this, it's far superior to the old system. 

 

 

Wrong for several reasons:

  1. if several people join at the same time the BR limit for one side can be massively exceeded, which if it happens towards the end of the 20 minutes timer results in an extremely lopsided battle.
    The recipe is as follows:
    Take for example a Herc, tag any ship large enough that it cannot outrun you, stay at long range and kite for 15 minutes, let the massive gank fleet join towards the end of the 20 minutes timer, chain well and voila. A gank as fine as can be.
  2. it would make battles more even if, and only if, both sides had equal amounts of reinforcements waiting, which is almost never the case. Hunting solo in neutral or enemy waters has become much more difficult compared to earlier RoE. Even if battles happen near free towns I rarely see them even out with current BR.
  3. "more PvP" does not, never has, and never will mean "better PvP". If 'number of assists' has increased that may as well mean that more ppl got into 20v4 ganks and received their measly one Combat Medal each while learning nothing about actual fighting, coordination and so on. Data such as this is has absolutely no use unless it is interpreted in a meaningful way.
Edited by Tom Farseer
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3 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

Okay I do understand. 

I have a L'Ocean, I get tagged by Bellona. 

900 BR vs 490 BR, enemy side is open? 

Another Hercules join enemy. 

900 vs 590 enemy side open

Pandora joins enemy

900 vs 690 enemy side open

17 min. till battle starts, 

Enemy is missing 210 BR, their side is open, my side is closed. 

900 vs 210 is %23 difference. 

Now it is 18 min. till battle starts, enemy 1st rate joined. Battle will be closed in 2 min. 

Correct me if I am wrong? 

So, in this scenario, after 20 min it's a l'Ocean vs Bellona, Herc, Pandora, and l'Ocean? I'm not sure if a l'Ocean would be able to join if there's only 210 BR left, that would be something for the @admin to answer. However, for the first 18min you would be against only a Bellona, Herc, and Pandora which I assume you could mostly sink, especially with the new damage model you're like 5 good broadsides from victory.

4 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

if several people join at the same time the BR limit for one side can be massively exceeded, which if it happens towards the end of the 20 minutes timer results in an extremely lopsided battle.
The recipe is as follows:
Take for example a Herc, tag any ship large enough that it cannot outrun you, stay at long range and kite for 15 minutes, let the massive gank fleet join towards the end of the 20 minutes timer, chain well and voila. A gank as fine as can be.

Incorrect, the battle locks as soon as the BR is exceeded, ships can only join until then. In VCO we have tested clicking join at the same time to exceed BR and it has a very low success rate.

It seems like the real issue that both @AeRoTR and @Tom Farseer want looked at is people being able to join and greatly exceeding the BR. So why not just say that instead of trying to ruin a perfectly good system for the rest of us.

nFrWxxB.jpg

 

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I don't necessarily agree that we are getting more PVP from this 20 min timer.  I have been in several battles where it only results in much running away. Many battles that I have joined, as soon as i'm spotted, the enemy player will extend and escape.  On battles that I have initiated, I keep a close lookout and see when extra people join up.  So far it has been simple to escape when I feel that I can't finish off my victim first.  For the few times where the battle has continued for some good PVP, I would say that I have had less actual killing (me or him) because of the frequent retreating due to heavily unbalanced joiners.  For me, it's a big inconvenience.

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1 minute ago, --Privateer-- said:

Incorrect, the battle locks as soon as the BR is exceeded, ships can only join until then. In VCO we have tested clicking join at the same time to exceed BR and it has a very low success rate.

Not true.  I have joined a battle where I exceeded the BR and later, had another enemy join because the BR was again in my favour.

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4 hours ago, Capitalism said:

Nah, though I've been quite supportive of many of your essays on mechanics so far, this I'll have to disagree with you on. 

Three minute join timers were the goldilocks timers.  Just enough to hunt in groups but not so much that it was magical-teleport-in-from-anywhere.  And I'd add that I'd leave the undocking and leaving battle timer as they are so that you could still be somewhere waiting but not completely called in from out of the blue in order to defend a mate that was tagged right outside of your Outpost/Battle, etc.

In any case... We need one, consistent RoE, nothing that varies between zones, etc. This just breeds endless frustration, complacency, and bugginess. 

you mean the just enough to bait outside of LT and jump in at 2:59 timer? ahh yeah that one, really balanced :) besides if you sail in a group, stick closer then and it wouldnt make sense to be on the edge of cuba reaching a battle over at hispaniola in time

 

3 hours ago, Ligatorswe said:

Interesting proposal, but the 2 minute timer does not save players from gank. With the old system you had 3-4 ships ganking one without the possibility to get help in time for the gankers. So a return to the old system would just mean a shift in what side that can be ganked. The old system favoured the gankers. The new system means that gankers can be ganked. 🙂 (And that they can get inforcement)

I think the new system is better in my view. It leads to more PVP, since you can find battles for 20 minutes to join, in for example the PZ. The game needs more PVP and easy-to-find pvp, so I want to keep the current system.

The reason you didnt find more battles or players with 2 min timer is because of the player population, imagine 400 players sailing around in only Bahamas, there would be plenty. The map is mad for 2k players and if we had that the 2 min timer would be perfect. I've been on both sides of the 20 min timer, its annoying because you cant really tell if a player will show up or not 19 mins into your battle, its like they have hyper jumped from one place to another to reinforce. Allthough having 20 min join timer inside a certain range from a county capital or something and 2 min join timer elsewhere would be interesting.

Edited by Guest

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12 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Not true.  I have joined a battle where I exceeded the BR and later, had another enemy join because the BR was again in my favour.

Yep, just like I said in my previous comment. As long as the battle becomes more even I don't see a issue.

1 hour ago, --Privateer-- said:

That's literally not how any of this works. After the first 2min, only the side with lower BR can be joined, and once the BR is exceeded the battle instantly locks. (unless it's exceeded by too much in which case the other side opens again to allow the BR to equalize further)

 

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41 minutes ago, --Privateer-- said:

So, in this scenario, after 20 min it's a l'Ocean vs Bellona, Herc, Pandora, and l'Ocean? I'm not sure if a l'Ocean would be able to join if there's only 210 BR left, that would be something for the @admin to answer. However, for the first 18min you would be against only a Bellona, Herc, and Pandora which I assume you could mostly sink, especially with the new damage model you're like 5 good broadsides from victory.

Except the Ocean can not effecteivly catch any of the lighter ship unless they really messs up hard. They can happily kite it at long range until their big friend arrives, then slow it down sufficiently for him to catch up, for which he as about an hour of time and sink it together.

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The ROE are not clear.  I have not seen anyone that can explain them perfectly.  Players ask this every day and there is no link to refer them to.  Perhaps they are too complicated ATM.

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24 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

Except the Ocean can not effecteivly catch any of the lighter ship unless they really messs up hard. They can happily kite it at long range until their big friend arrives, then slow it down sufficiently for him to catch up, for which he as about an hour of time and sink it together.

If it were me, I'd just sink the l'Ocean and the lighter ships.

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11 minutes ago, --Privateer-- said:

If it were me, I'd just sink the l'Ocean and the lighter ships.

sigh.....
Yes, you and I both would probably be able to pull that off, depending on who the enemies are, as would quite a few other players on this forum. But we cannot measure the whole playerbase with the same stick as the experienced PvPers....

But trust me... I can kite your Ocean in a Bellona for the full 90 minutes without getting even close to being in danger of being sunk. So can others. That is what essentially breaks the current RoE by making it fully exploitable.

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And why is there a 20 min. timer?

It becomes trap for single guy. 

@--Privateer-- I give example of how I was against 2 first rate, one joining like 17 minutes, and battle closed 2-3 minutes later.

So you must be mostly on stronger side, to trap an enemy and you enjoy it. 

Another issue when random people join your side, they increase BR points and they exit the battle, but their BR stays on battle. This is how in my Bellona ended up against 2 Bellona+1 trinco +1 pandora, what about this? 

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This whole thread seems to be full of people with the same issue: They were doing some sort of uneven battle with some amount of BR open on the enemy side and then a bunch of enemies joined and they lost. I'll admit, maybe there's an issue with the BR being exceeded too much in the opposite direction after 2min. However, that seems like a minor balancing issue in a otherwise great system. The idea that the whole system should be scrapped over such an issue seems to be more out of spite over losing a battle than out of a actual desire to do what's best for the game.

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4 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

So you must be mostly on stronger side, to trap an enemy and you enjoy it. 

Nah, I just don't mind a little bit of extra BR on the enemy side.

D04F7743AC3E9886E42035EE6BA5609748FF05DB

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3 hours ago, --Privateer-- said:

That's literally not how any of this works. After the first 2min, only the side with lower BR can be joined, and once the BR is exceeded the battle instantly locks. (unless it's exceeded by too much in which case the other side opens again to allow the BR to equalize further)

Which is wrong because a smaller ship tags a larger one, holds him in battle for 19 minutes for his buddies to join, locking the battle behind them. Unquestionally broken mechanic that needs to be reverted, or made so the attacks can't pull someone for that long waiting for reinforcements across the map.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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9 minutes ago, Socialism said:

How about we just return to the 3 min joins that we had for 2 years and call it even.  

I think Wyy had the best answer to this.

1 hour ago, Wyy said:

you mean the just enough to bait outside of LT and jump in at 2:59 timer? ahh yeah that one, really balanced :)

 

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Make it simple...take BR completely out of the equation.  Just settle on the join timer limit.  Don't make us do math and ask a dozen hypotheticals.

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5 minutes ago, --Privateer-- said:

This whole thread seems to be full of people with the same issue: They were doing some sort of uneven battle with some amount of BR open on the enemy side and then a bunch of enemies joined and they lost. I'll admit, maybe there's an issue with the BR being exceeded too much in the opposite direction after 2min. However, that seems like a minor balancing issue in a otherwise great system. The idea that the whole system should be scrapped over such an issue seems to be more out of spite over losing a battle than out of a actual desire to do what's best for the game.

It's not that you lose the battle.  If someone joins after 15 minutes, you can possibly either finish off the guys you're fighting or run away.  My problem is that joining a battle after 15 minutes means that you have come from half the map away.  In a game where we accept certain unrealistic aspects, I think we have gone too far.  You can get on your satphone in Cuba and a friend in Jamaica can come to your aide (a week's real time sail).  It is actually safer and more productive to run around looking for existing battles than it is to initiate a fight.  You have a great chance to find an opponent who is already damaged and out of chain.

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