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On the issue of imported ship permits versus ready imported ships.

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12 minutes ago, --Privateer-- said:

Look, you found the problem, but didn't recognize it. The DLC shouldn't be necessary to participate in pvp. New players need to be able to play the game they bought without further purchases, and they need to be able to do this in a time frame that keeps them interested.

  • All permits need to be purchasable via combat metals in the shop.
  • Rare woods have to become less rare.

Or...

We shift the economy so that oakships are the commonly used type of ship.

And in that way we create scarce commodities. Something which can be lots of fun.

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10 hours ago, Teutonic said:

That is the only way to properly test it, but folks won't be happy.

who cares? we will lose anything anyway. The faster we ge ta release, the better

 

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The main reason why i like the proposals of the Devs is that it bypasses the current system with alts. Alts are still something good for those that use it but the success of a clan will no longer depend on having lots of alts.

I mean... I am collecting stuff to make myself some nice ships at the moment, with LO/WO and all. Either i stop playing for many hours or I run the shipbuilding and collecting stuff via alts. Alts are necessary to be a trader and constructor of ships and stuff at the moment. It is a game feature. Alts should not be a feature of the game.

The system the Devs propose will create more cooperation and will force players to seek up clans if they want the high level stuff, but it will also take away the dependence on alts.

I liked the old craftingsystem, that people have talked lots about. But that system was based on alts. You had to have laborhours and alts to make all stuff you needed. All members of the clan, and all their alts were needed. 

I think it is good for the game that we get rid of the dependence on alts. At least for crafting. Alts will still be an advantage, but not for the basic stuff.

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17 hours ago, admin said:

On the issue raised by @HachiRoku @Anolytic and many other captains. 

There was a proposal on this forum (i think it was @OjK but can be mistaken)

Proposal was this: sell the permit that the player then will craft (unique ship but still participating in the economy).
Initially thought a great idea. 

Evolution of imported (DLC) ships thinking was this.

  • Premium ships was announced when we did not even think about the open world (in 2014)
  • Premium ships were initially thought as unique status items, a more beautiful alternative. 
  • Some ships introduced over time were not crafteable (Wasa, Hermione) to give us the option to add them to premium roster without taking away crafteable ships. 
  • First experiments were ran with Hercules and LRQ (it wa good to do it in early access as many things were discovered and learnt as a result)

Now many players say that DLC ships reduce the role of the economy, and that there should be deep and interesting MMO economy. 

But let's get this straight. 

  • Crafting was introduced last, and is a least cooked feature, as all focus was always on combat model, rvr and ROE (lately PVE). 
  • Hauling was somewhat forced onto players because some time ago we wanted everyone to be the target. 

And here is the main discovery.

  • Players do not buy DLC ships for uniqueness.
  • They do not buy them because they are stronger or weaker than others (there is always a better crafted ship, sometimes 5/5 crafted ship). Rattvisan is definitely not the best 4th rate. 
     
  • They do buy them to support developers (thank you everyone for support)
  • And they buy them to avoid participation in the exciting economy (mainly hauling).

Trading goods is rewarding and has both risk AND profit. Hauling goods for crafting is boring, not exciting, is risky but gives you no real rewards (you make a ship that you will soon lose anyway). 

Thats why making permit based DLC ships is not going to achieve anything. Thats not what customers want.
 

Now. 
Here is the rug change that will tie the room together. 

  • Port investments will remove hauling requirements for basic resources for all players who play with friends or have friendly clans in the nation.
  • Clans (and you can have a small clan and capture a distant port to use it) will invest into
    • production of all basic resources in their port
    • defenses to protect it
    • shipbuilding to improve ships built in this region.
  • By doing so - player will get ALL basic resources in one location, completely removing hauling requirements out of the picture. Saving time and getting ships by just spending LH and cooperating together to get rare woods if needed. 

Clan can decide if they want these investments to be available to them only, to friends or to everyone who can build in this port.
QOGCpwG.png 

 

As a result.

  • Clans who developed the port will be able to get ships with one click.
  • Enemy clans who do not want to spend time developing ports can try to capture the port from the enemies (why build if you can cap). 
  • There will be a lot less time wasted on hauling and more fighting. 

You made all initial changes to eco and ship building to force players to invest time in RVR. Want chances to craft superior ships? You have to install your shipyard in a capturable port. Want to have access to rare woods? You have to make your nation capture the producing port... Etc, etc...

 

Now, you want to reduce the hauling. mmmh, so, finally, you're still trying to resolve issues that were introduced because of RVR, without real changes to RVR.

 

Maybe you should go farther in your analysis, and instead of removing hauling, and eco, maybe you should consider removing the RVR. Or at least make it simpler, and not try to force everyone into it.

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34 minutes ago, Ligatorswe said:

We shift the economy so that oakships are the commonly used type of ship.

Ok fine, Oak/Oak is the new meta, but permits still need to be attainable. There's no point in having a bunch of different and interesting ship models if half of them are insanely rare.

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13 minutes ago, --Privateer-- said:

Ok fine, Oak/Oak is the new meta, but permits still need to be attainable. There's no point in having a bunch of different and interesting ship models if half of them are insanely rare.

I agree on that to 100%. make ships more accessible and then it wont be a problem that LO/WO etc are scarce. 

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😃

Maybe next feature will be Large/small/duel battle room and return Sea Legends

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43 minutes ago, hoarmurath said:

You have to make your nation capture the producing port...

I'm not even sure they're trying to force RVR with this. With only one or two teak ports and 11 nations, no one's even going to try, especially considering the proximity of the teak port to the french capital, how far the teak would have to be hauled back, and how overpriced it is. And timers rule out some major RVR clans. A set up that promotes RVR would have multiple teak ports, each would be equally spaced between 2-3 capitals, creating some obvious territorial disputes. If anything, the current set up promotes the DLC, which can conveniently be redeemed in any wood type.

44 minutes ago, hoarmurath said:

Or at least make it simpler, and not try to force everyone into it.

Maybe not simpler, but less of a grind, I don't play on the PVP server to grind out AI fleets. I liked the flag system, they'd just have to raise the price if flags and limit the number that can be active at one time.

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15 hours ago, Liberalism said:

If this is true, then questions arise:

•Why players cannot craft DLC ships?

•Why players cannot capture DLC ships?

•Why descriptions of Hercules & Rattvisan DLCs describe them as "powerful"?

•Why some players didn't enjoy the decrease of DLC ships' statistics? (Hercules & Le Requin)

Now imagine you purchase a car and additional "Engine & Fuel DLC". You have your powerful engine and you enjoy free fuel refill every 24 hours. One day your car manufacturer needs to "balance" your engine and decreases its HP (horse power, do not confuse with health points) by 30%. He says that it's for the public good. He also thanks you for supporting the car manufacturer company, because it's the main reason you purchased the car after all, right? 

What do real life scenarios have in common with a game? Besides that no one is nerfing the hp of the car you mentioned anyway. It's just the other cars that are being tuned. Games and reality are not the same thing. I guess you could compare it to releasing a car that did not need to be manufactured. What would happen to the economy if one car was 100 times cheaper than rest? 

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I guess we get to test this on testbed ? If so,

a) pls test the version that goes life and not bring in major changes after testbed. 

b) ill rather wait with comments till after testing..since the op doesnt give enough details to base a solid comment on, particularly as I cant figure what it means to pve, were hauling never has been a problem. 

 

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4 hours ago, --Privateer-- said:

Look, you found the problem, but didn't recognize it. The DLC shouldn't be necessary to participate in pvp. New players need to be able to play the game they bought without further purchases, and they need to be able to do this in a time frame that keeps them interested.

  • All permits need to be purchasable via combat metals in the shop.
  • Rare woods have to become less rare.

I never said DLCs were necessary. They do give the casual player an opportunity to play without having to do a huge grind. More players playing = more PvP. That is not a bad thing considering that there is a giant number of post on these forums moaning about a lack of PvP. The Devs give a solution that makes more PvP likely and you still complain. Unreal!!!

The rare woods... I get that it’s being used to drive wars. No problem with that. Fight harder. Make alliances. Life isn’t fair, why should the game be fair??? 

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9 hours ago, Diceman said:

All of these arguments saying DLC hurts crafting is garbage! Crafted ships will always be better. Crafted ships will always be the meta ships for port battles. Crafted ships will always be preferred for hunting in the open world. There will always be a market for crafted ships! 

Not to the same extent as we used to have.  Remember the days when a crafter would build 2 dozen (or more) ships in order to get one premium?  What happened to all of those ships he built?  They went into the shop at a reasonable price and ended up in OW.  Those days are gone.  No one can possibly build dozens of ships with the hope of one keeper.  That's a combination of DLC and rare woods/permits.  The rarity of the wood and permits makes it very difficult to build even one good ship and the existence of the DLC's says "why bother?".  We can't walk back on the DLC, but something could certainly be done about wood and permits. 

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5 hours ago, --Privateer-- said:

Look, you found the problem, but didn't recognize it. The DLC shouldn't be necessary to participate in pvp. New players need to be able to play the game they bought without further purchases, and they need to be able to do this in a time frame that keeps them interested.

  • All permits need to be purchasable via combat metals in the shop.
  • Rare woods have to become less rare.

One other point... You hit on the real problem regarding economy... Restrictions regarding building of ships is what is REALLY hurting economy. The requirement for permits that also require special medals or victory marks or whatever... THAT is killing ship building because only a certain few will obtain those special items... Solo players and small clans struggle mightily to obtain those things, then add to that the rare woods issue, now a large part of the server is setup to fail from the start!!! If these people never get the chance to build bigger ships they’ll never win, never get medals, never get notes and eventually quit. Permits should be available to all. Go ahead and make them expensive but they should be available to ALL in this game. 

Again I have no problem with rare woods. It’s used to drive war. I do have problems with restrictions on crafters to build ships. 

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2 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Not to the same extent as we used to have.  Remember the days when a crafter would build 2 dozen (or more) ships in order to get one premium?  What happened to all of those ships he built?  They went into the shop at a reasonable price and ended up in OW.  Those days are gone.  No one can possibly build dozens of ships with the hope of one keeper.  That's a combination of DLC and rare woods/permits.  The rarity of the wood and permits makes it very difficult to build even one good ship and the existence of the DLC's says "why bother?".  We can't walk back on the DLC, but something could certainly be done about wood and permits. 

Read my reply to privateer just below your message.

we agree. Permits are killing ship building not DLC.

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6 minutes ago, Diceman said:

Read my reply to privateer just below your message.

we agree. Permits are killing ship building not DLC.

Yeah, we were typing at the same time.  Permits AND rare woods.  I think we are all underestimating human nature when it comes to the rarity of premium woods (yes, yes..."that's what she said...").  Players will NOT craft oak/oak ships in the same numbers as previous.  They will wait for the better woods.  So we will have less ships in OW.  I cant understand any change to the game that does not increase the number of ships in OW.

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Wasn't OW introduced to have some economy? To have trading, privateering, a reason to fight for something?

With the DLC ships there is no more reason for that, it is just fun in battles, and only for fun.

So for me these DLC ships would have a good place in Naval Action Legends. There they would perfectly fit.

All of our current OW sandbox is based on the need of finding mats to craft ships. If this is not necessary anymore, when you can find everything you need in one single port what is OW good for?

Some time ago multi-dura ships were banned since loosing a ship should matter. The current DLC mechanics makes this obsolete. No one cares about his ship if it will be replaced the next day for nothing.

DLC ships might fit in the game in its 2016 version, with multi-dura ships and easy to find woods of all kinds. I remember I had a lot of fun in those days. You still needed the different ports for material, transport it to your shipyard and build your ship. There were many traders to cap and many battles to fight.

@admin‌‌‌ you have now to decide if this game shall be more of economy driven or arena battle game. For my part, I hope you will develop the game more towards the 2016 version than to a kind of NAL.

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11 minutes ago, Sea Archer said:

Wasn't OW introduced to have some economy?

I don't think so.

First to sail, sail, sail (Sea trials was a too small basin for our toys), also to explore this beautiful world, take pics ; then to randomly meet opponents (OW pvp/e as bots were agressive).

Then came the trade and the craft.

Edited by LeBoiteux

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On 4/10/2019 at 2:15 PM, admin said:

On the issue raised by @HachiRoku @Anolytic and many other captains. 

There was a proposal on this forum (i think it was @OjK but can be mistaken)

Proposal was this: sell the permit that the player then will craft (unique ship but still participating in the economy).
Initially thought a great idea. 

Evolution of imported (DLC) ships thinking was this.

  • Premium ships was announced when we did not even think about the open world (in 2014)
  • Premium ships were initially thought as unique status items, a more beautiful alternative. 
  • Some ships introduced over time were not crafteable (Wasa, Hermione) to give us the option to add them to premium roster without taking away crafteable ships. 
  • First experiments were ran with Hercules and LRQ (it wa good to do it in early access as many things were discovered and learnt as a result)

Now many players say that DLC ships reduce the role of the economy, and that there should be deep and interesting MMO economy. 

But let's get this straight. 

  • Crafting was introduced last, and is a least cooked feature, as all focus was always on combat model, rvr and ROE (lately PVE). 
  • Hauling was somewhat forced onto players because some time ago we wanted everyone to be the target. 

And here is the main discovery.

  • Players do not buy DLC ships for uniqueness.
  • They do not buy them because they are stronger or weaker than others (there is always a better crafted ship, sometimes 5/5 crafted ship). Rattvisan is definitely not the best 4th rate. 
     
  • They do buy them to support developers (thank you everyone for support)
  • And they buy them to avoid participation in the exciting economy (mainly hauling).

Trading goods is rewarding and has both risk AND profit. Hauling goods for crafting is boring, not exciting, is risky but gives you no real rewards (you make a ship that you will soon lose anyway). 

Thats why making permit based DLC ships is not going to achieve anything. Thats not what customers want.
 

Now. 
Here is the rug change that will tie the room together. 

  • Port investments will remove hauling requirements for basic resources for all players who play with friends or have friendly clans in the nation.
  • Clans (and you can have a small clan and capture a distant port to use it) will invest into
    • production of all basic resources in their port
    • defenses to protect it
    • shipbuilding to improve ships built in this region.
  • By doing so - player will get ALL basic resources in one location, completely removing hauling requirements out of the picture. Saving time and getting ships by just spending LH and cooperating together to get rare woods if needed. 

Clan can decide if they want these investments to be available to them only, to friends or to everyone who can build in this port.
QOGCpwG.png 

 

As a result.

  • Clans who developed the port will be able to get ships with one click.
  • Enemy clans who do not want to spend time developing ports can try to capture the port from the enemies (why build if you can cap). 
  • There will be a lot less time wasted on hauling and more fighting. 

Goodbye traders and crafters. Not to mention the utter impossibility of achieving the "better" woods.

Sad.

Hey @resarE, you can give me another warning or ban if you want. I will never understand why, but you are the mod eh?

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Sailing just for sailing a a bit thin as motivation. For me the best time with this game was in 2016, many fights enough economy and a many players...

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2 hours ago, Diceman said:

I never said DLCs were necessary. They do give the casual player an opportunity to play without having to do a huge grind. More players playing = more PvP. That is not a bad thing considering that there is a giant number of post on these forums moaning about a lack of PvP. The Devs give a solution that makes more PvP likely and you still complain. Unreal!!!

The rare woods... I get that it’s being used to drive wars. No problem with that. Fight harder. Make alliances. Life isn’t fair, why should the game be fair??? 

the problem with the the game been  fair or unfair  is when its  used to justify one aspect of the game and then dropped for another

player xp and crafting xp need to be wiped because the game needs to be fair for everyone vets and newbies on release

but the game doesnt have to fair when someonecan buy a dlc rattvisan and make a live /oak white oak 4th rate every day  but someone who doesnt want to spend £27.89 in my case on a dlc ,  has to make do with an oak/oak 4th rate thats hard to craft due to permits and  because  the rare woods are in another nations port under  a clans protection  thats unfair

either make the game fair or unfair not a mish mash of justifications for changes

i dont see how the introduction of a dlc makes for more pvp .... im not going to fight a dlc ship with a crafted one why should i

i dont see how rare woods drive rvr .. for a start off  no one seems to know where these wandering forests have wandered off to .. but we are expected to sail around and find them

do you realise how long it would take to sail to every port on the map even if there was no chance of been sunk along the way

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2 minutes ago, shunt said:

the problem with the the game been  fair or unfair  is when its  used to justify one aspect of the game and then dropped for another

player xp and crafting xp need to be wiped because the game needs to be fair for everyone vets and newbies on release

but the game doesnt have to fair when someonecan buy a dlc rattvisan and make a live /oak white oak 4th rate every day  but someone who doesnt want to spend £27.89 in my case on a dlc ,  has to make do with an oak/oak 4th rate thats hard to craft due to permits and  because  the rare woods are in another nations port under  a clans protection  thats unfair

either make the game fair or unfair not a mish mash of justifications for changes

i dont see how the introduction of a dlc makes for more pvp .... im not going to fight a dlc ship with a crafted one why should i

i dont see how rare woods drive rvr .. for a start off  no one seems to know where these wandering forests have wandered off to .. but we are expected to sail around and find them

do you realise how long it would take to sail to every port on the map even if there was no chance of been sunk along the way

YES to wiping all XP! However the devs already promised that would be safe... the butthurt on here would be epic, so I don’t see that happening. Too bad.

No to making game fair. Life isn’t. As a solo under the current rules... I’ll probably never get into the big ships, oh well, too bad for me. I adjusted my gameplay. But my mission when game goes live is too build and sell the biggest best possible ships to the unwashed masses of my nation, not just a certain few in a clan...

Your argument actually supports mine about removing all these special requirements for permits. Make permits available to ALL, then you could craft/purchase bigger better crafted ships than the DLC and that coupled with your obvious superior skill would defeat all DLC, Even the mighty Rattisvan...

Are you saying that you in a oak/oak Bellona couldn’t handle a Ratt? Would you need a Bucc or a first rate? Wood selection might not be the problem...

Of course DLC makes for more PvP... More noob casual one night a week guys sailing around looking for trouble??? DLC hurting this game is FAKE NEWS!!!! Why last night I bought the Hermione just out of spite to those barfing out that garbage... Keep it up and I’ll buy the Ratt... I’ll do it...

Rare woods? Where are the Big clans camped?? More than likely that’s where the rare woods be... Limit your search to those ports, it’ll take less time than you think... It won’t be a secret long.

 

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1 minute ago, Diceman said:

YES to wiping all XP! However the devs already promised that would be safe... the butthurt on here would be epic, so I don’t see that happening. Too bad.

lol, you haven't been reading.  XP will be gone

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@admin just make sure when enemy clan captures already developed port invested infrastructure collapse by -60% or roll back to almost default infrastructure. 

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1 hour ago, Diceman said:

DLC hurting this game is FAKE NEWS

You stated an opinion, fact is dlc is hurting the econ, and for some players, Econ is the game.

So yes some people can say dlc is hurting the game in their eyes. There are many econ/traders/crafters I know who have quit because of devs ignoring this side.

you have no idea what this game coulda been. 

Ps take it easy on the Fox news

Edited by Communism
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@admin

You now have 6 pages of comments from players here in this thread essentially all telling you that most of us prefer crafted ships and that the permit costs / lack of rare woods availability is significantly hurting our ability to make these ships.  Crafting should be an important part of this game.  

DLC or “imported” ships have their place in the game, but they should not replace crafted ships as the bread butter of what’s being sailed around on the water.  

Any thoughts on improving the crafting to make it more viable in the future?  Permit walls and pop up rare woods spawns aren’t really features anyone asked for and seem to be universally disliked.  

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