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On the issue of imported ship permits versus ready imported ships.


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3 hours ago, Intrepido said:

You still dont get it.

 

The problems arent getting the basic ressources such as coal, fir, oak...

The problems are trying to get the good woods (teak, live oak, white oak, sabicu, caguairan), the time to grind those doubloons (insane amount) and the risk of hauling those woods to the crafting point.

 

DLCs are a matter of an instant click selecting the woods you desire. Crafting a teak-white Wappen requires effort and time (now much worse due to the permits wall).

He also doesn't understand that some players actually like to do econ/trade/craft and play this game for that more than just the PvP or PvE.  I play all parts of it and I think crafting has been so screwed up that it's almost pointless to craft any more.  Every ship should be craftable in game except super rare ones no matter what.  And he's still wrong about a DLC having an in game crafted equivalent....we still have nothing compared to the LRQ that can be crafted. I made a suggestion of allowing a trader version be a Admiralty shop reward (BLUE PRINT PLEASE) for those that like to do trade and want something special.   That will give a none combat trade ship version to be crafted.  

I actually know several crafters/traders that have stopped playing the game cause no there is no ships for them to craft without having to pay out the arse for permits or expect a luck of a draw from chest drops.  WE DIDN"T DUMB DOWN CRAFTING LIKE I FEARED WE MADE IT 10 TIMES HARDER.

3 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I agree for the most part with your entire post, but the point I've quoted here should get more attention.  The big traders are being left out of this because of the ease in which we can make reals with Cargo missions and passenger deliveries.  I love the ease with which I can get money now, but I have to admit, when hunting, I have not seen very many players in LGVs and Indiamen.  There is simply no need.  This hurts the hunters somewhat.  There still need to be a reason to fleet up a group of Indiamen and go out for a big profit. 

 

I don't see this happening.  A small clan who captures a distant port will simply be an easy target.  They know this and wont risk it.  Please consider the small groups and solo players.  A clan owned port should certainly benefit the clan first.  They did the main work.  They should gain the earnings from taxes.  But allow other national players a piece of the pie, without the owners permission.  When you allow one player (a clan leader) to bar another player (someone he hates) from a rare resource, it leads to some very bad feelings.

We also have the problem of certain large clans claiming all the important ports and no one fighting over them.   There should be a limit of 10 ports per clan.   Yes alt clans can be made, but this means that you cant have one clan own half the map.  They actually have to work with other clans to do so.  BR on ports also need to be fixed cause we have to many small BR ports that are important ports where a small elite clan can hold and keep a port vs a large nation that can fill 25 man ports being able to hold and take a port.  We should be able to increase ports BR if we want and can field bigger fleets than others.

3 hours ago, Socialism said:

I think you missed a key reason why DLC ships are so popular.  Convenience.  It’s not that players don’t want to do the Econ side of things and craft, it’s the fact that it’s 15 combat marks for crafting a surprise when you only receive 2 or 3 for sinking one.  It’s also the fact that better woods are now more costly, more scarce and more time consuming to get.  You’ve essentially made DLC ships the only viable option for quick and carefree PVP.  Especially with a looming wipe.

I made a suggestion on Hachi’s thread the other day to achieve the best of both worlds.  

Redeemable DLC ships are locked to one or 2 wood types and base 3/5s. Like oak/oak Players have the OPTION to redeem a permit and craft their ship for a chance at a 5/5 and premium woods.  Both are locked for 24 hours.  I feel this would be a happy medium. 

DLC should be only blue 3/5 ships with chance of perks.  Only way to get anything better is a ship has to be crafted by a player.  Give crafting a meaning.  We use to have to get to level 50 to make mastercraft stuff.  Do something like that now where it's only the crafters that can produce those exceptional ships not some random note or DLC.   Also allow all ships pretty much to be crafted if you get the BLUE PRINTS.  Lock some of them behind special or rewards, but allow pretty much every ship to be crafted if some one gains a BLUE PRINT.  

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On the issue raised by @HachiRoku @Anolytic and many other captains.  There was a proposal on this forum (i think it was @OjK but can be mistaken) Proposal was this: sell the permit that t

But doesn't that remove a part of the gameplay -raiding? Me and many other clan members prefer that kind of gameplay, probably other people too. Personally I don't want to fight just for the sake of t

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2 hours ago, pit said:

Can we get this implemented in crafting already? To hell with rng!

90B49210-A50C-49A4-8691-6A27B4C1A27D.png

I recently returned to the game after 1.5 years away.  Here is what I found:

1. Although I understand the frustration with DLC ships the reality is they add content to the game which is quite welcome.  I left the game because I would get fed up of sailing around KPR or Ctown and not finding any targets.  Now players come out with DLC ships and redeemable and this gives content.  I have fun hunting at KPR or CTown now.  Players are not scared to lose the DLC and there is not the usual frustration associated with losing the ship.  No threats or comments about giving up the game.  This is good for the game and player base.

2. I do not understand where the devs want to go with crafting.  By making permits and rare woods elusive and hard to obtain players will not risk their crafted ships and this will reduce content and player base.

Recommendations:

1. Reduce the permits costs as it is way too high.  I can hunt for an evening and get 5-10 CM yet it takes 25 CM for a trinc. This makes no sense.  Raise the bar for permits for 3rd rate and up but do not require CM or permits for 4th rates and lower.  If 4th rate and lower do not require permits then there is no need for multi dura ships.

2. Make all woods available and at more than one location.  It is unfair that a DLC ship can be made of rare woods yet it will be out of reach for 95% or more of players in game.  This will only cause frustration and players to leave the game.  The last thing we need is one large clan that controls teak, white oak or live oak with out of reach timers.  I know I would stop playing if such is the case.  Also allowing all crafting to take place at the rare wood port will reduce content since it removes the possibility for hunters to cap rare wood carrying ships.  Rare woods should require transport to the crafting port to allow all players a chance to capture a trader carrying them. 

3. Make the rare wood available in a neutral port that requires the player to sail there to get it.  This port should be placed in an area that requires a bit but not too much sailing but most importantly such port should be in an area that is populated by multiple nations (ie. Bahamas etc.).   This will provide a hot zone for hunting as players will sail there to get the wood.  Make the wood available to all that go there but limit quantities to like 1000 logs per trip so it will require multiple trips.  The price for rare woods would require a mix of doubloons and CM but make this very reasonable not the current 50 000 doubloons for 5k logs (more ships = more content).  The rare wood would be a redeemable note for 1k wood that would weight 1k.  This removes the possibility of leaving some in warehouse at the rare wood neutral port and using a tlynx to escape capture.  Clans would have to work together to form supply missions and sail to these ports with escorts.  

4.  Remove ship rng bonuses when crafting.  Add a note that would ship rank specific to give a particular ship bonuses (see the list above  provided by Pit ie. very fast, fast, sturdy etc.).  Also add the ai bonuses as well but limit the notes to 1 per ship to avoid stacking.  This note can be obtained by RNG when looting ai or players a bit like doubloons.  This note can then be used when redeeming a ship (Pandora), DLC or when crafting.

5. Remove the necessity for doubloons for crafting ships.  Harder ships generations equates to less ships on the OW and less content.  Allow doubloons to be used to purchase perks, rare woods or ships notes as above in 4.

6. Implement a ship market that can be viewed server wide.  This list can show all ships available in freeports for sale.  This way crafters would find a market for their ships and crafting would be encouraged.  Also implement an order form for a ship specifying ship type, wood etc. and provide a mecanism to consign the permit and RNG note.  This would be available to all crafters who can build a ship to that specification.  This will encourage crafters and reduce the frustration with DLC.  This list should be anonymous and also ship delivery should be automated (ie. player who placed order gets the ship at the freeport where he placed the order).

7. Bring back all ships into game such as Santi, renommée, endymion etc.

8. Fix the unbalanced ai ship.  Ai grinding is a chore for vets yet many new players need it to make $ and get mods etc.  The current level of skill of the ai is not only absurd and frustrating but may cause new players to quit and let's face it, most veteran players hate the ai grinding.

9. Remove the ability for trader lynx or basic cutters to do passenger delivery missions.  This is leading to rampant inflation.  Also the current system is flawed.  I have 4 alts.  I can pull the 3 passenger delivery missions with my 1st alt and place them in the hull of my tlynx.  I then trade the ship to each of my alts in succession while pulling the missions for each.  At the end, I have a tlynx with 12 missions with added weight of 12 and can make almost 500 000 reals with virtually no risk.  My tlynx sails at 15.5 and cannot be caught by most ships.  Also, it is not worthwhile to hunt tlynx since it pays very few CM.

10. Add a rng when looting ai or players for a DLC ship note.  This will be rare but may alleviate some of the frustration with DLC.

 

Edited by TheLoneWolf
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4 hours ago, admin said:

On the issue raised by @HachiRoku @Anolytic and many other captains. 

There was a proposal on this forum (i think it was @OjK but can be mistaken)

Proposal was this: sell the permit that the player then will craft (unique ship but still participating in the economy).
Initially thought a great idea. 

Evolution of imported (DLC) ships thinking was this.

  • Premium ships was announced when we did not even think about the open world (in 2014)
  • Premium ships were initially thought as unique status items, a more beautiful alternative. 
  • Some ships introduced over time were not crafteable (Wasa, Hermione) to give us the option to add them to premium roster without taking away crafteable ships. 
  • First experiments were ran with Hercules and LRQ (it wa good to do it in early access as many things were discovered and learnt as a result)

Now many players say that DLC ships reduce the role of the economy, and that there should be deep and interesting MMO economy. 

But let's get this straight. 

  • Crafting was introduced last, and is a least cooked feature, as all focus was always on combat model, rvr and ROE (lately PVE). 
  • Hauling was somewhat forced onto players because some time ago we wanted everyone to be the target. 

And here is the main discovery.

  • Players do not buy DLC ships for uniqueness.
  • They do not buy them because they are stronger or weaker than others (there is always a better crafted ship, sometimes 5/5 crafted ship). Rattvisan is definitely not the best 4th rate. 
     
  • They do buy them to support developers (thank you everyone for support)
  • And they buy them to avoid participation in the exciting economy (mainly hauling).

Trading goods is rewarding and has both risk AND profit. Hauling goods for crafting is boring, not exciting, is risky but gives you no real rewards (you make a ship that you will soon lose anyway). 

Thats why making permit based DLC ships is not going to achieve anything. Thats not what customers want.
 

Now. 
Here is the rug change that will tie the room together. 

  • Port investments will remove hauling requirements for basic resources for all players who play with friends or have friendly clans in the nation.
  • Clans (and you can have a small clan and capture a distant port to use it) will invest into
    • production of all basic resources in their port
    • defenses to protect it
    • shipbuilding to improve ships built in this region.
  • By doing so - player will get ALL basic resources in one location, completely removing hauling requirements out of the picture. Saving time and getting ships by just spending LH and cooperating together to get rare woods if needed. 

Clan can decide if they want these investments to be available to them only, to friends or to everyone who can build in this port.
QOGCpwG.png 

 

As a result.

  • Clans who developed the port will be able to get ships with one click.
  • Enemy clans who do not want to spend time developing ports can try to capture the port from the enemies (why build if you can cap). 
  • There will be a lot less time wasted on hauling and more fighting. 

Exelent !

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8 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said:

3. Make the rare wood available in a neutral port that requires the player to sail there to get it.  This port should be placed in an area that requires a bit but not too much sailing but most importantly such port should be in an area that is populated by multiple nations (ie. Bahamas etc.).   This will provide a hot zone for hunting as players will sail there to get the wood.  Make the wood available to all that go there but limit quantities to like 1000 logs per trip so it will require multiple trips.  The price for rare woods would require a mix of doubloons and CM but make this very reasonable not the current 50 000 doubloons for 5k logs (more ships = more content).  The rare wood would be a redeemable note for 1k wood that would weight 1k.  This removes the possibility of leaving some in warehouse at the rare wood neutral port and using a tlynx to escape capture.  Clans would have to work together to form supply missions and sail to these ports with escorts. 

I like this a lot @The LoneWolf.  I would add that these rare items (include copper and carta Tar) be sold in two or three neutral locations and can be purchased only off the shelf..no contracts (I know you implied that).  You would have to sail there and transport your stuff away. 

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@admin, I'm sorry that we do not see this the same way or perhaps I misunderstand.  It sounds like the idea is to take the risk and reward out of crafting altogether as some sort of compromise for the dlc ships.  First "insurance", now this.  I think this makes crafting even less relevant to the game.  I think, as a sandbox game, we need economic incentive. We need ship crafting.

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It seems I might be playing less if these said changes go the way they sound like they will. I craft but this update will make it less rewarding, I like to raid but now there will be a lot less, value of taking multiple ports has decreased so there will be less RvR to participate in. I just do not see myself investing as much time into this game as I do now.

 

PS: was interrupted before finishing. Basically this means less time I invest then the less money I will invest in the game so no more dlc purchases. I rather place that money towards a game that I will invest more time in. Reason why I bought all of Civ 6, all of the Paradox DLCs for Stellaris, HoI 2-4, Victoria 2, CK2, and EU4, and TW:Warhammer2. I spend time in those games significantly. 

Edited by Velhelm Von Marrius
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@admin This change is overall a big step in the right direction. Thanks for that!
The issue of rare woods on DLC ships however remains. which is far more problematic than basic resources.


Therefore let me make the following Suggestion:
If all ports within a single county are owned by one Nation a rare wood forest upgrade for the county capital is applied. This works towards further balancing availability of rare woods for crafting vs. one-Click DLC ships

Edited by Tom Farseer
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10 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

Therefore let me make the following Suggestion:
If all ports within a single county are owned by one Nation a rare wood forest upgrade for the county capital is applied. This works towards further balancing availability of rare woods for crafting vs. one-Click DLC ships

Like this idea.....would help RVR and enhance the need to protect the ports of smaller clans that form part of a county.

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1 minute ago, Roadkill said:

Like this idea.....would help RVR and enhance the need to protect the ports of smaller clans that form part of a county.

I welcome any idea that will make rare woods more available.  Although I like the suggestion it will not provide more content and this will be exploited by alts such as the current rare wood producing ports now are exploited by alts.

We need to remove the rare woods from a specific location and provide a central location for all.  This way there is no exploitation by alts, all have access albeit with some risk and it provides content.

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1 minute ago, TheLoneWolf said:

This way there is no exploitation by alts,

No more hauling wolfie according to admin.. all your alts are useless now 😛 shoulda saved that money for dlc 

missed ya!

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13 minutes ago, Communism said:

No more hauling wolfie according to admin.. all your alts are useless now 😛 shoulda saved that money for dlc 

missed ya!

Alts are great to make quick $.  See point 9 of my previous post.

Alts are also great to intercept players as they are about to enter port and for many other things :)

I think hauling could be made into a content aspect and this could be a fun aspect. 

In any event, even with the DLC you will need to haul to make $ to buy cannons etc.

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2 minutes ago, Suppenkelle said:

I guess for testing this economy system we need a full econ wipe. all ships, buildings, and warehouses gone and probably all reals, CM and Doubloons also.

:)

 

Not opposed to this at all.

 

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9 minutes ago, Suppenkelle said:

I guess for testing this economy system we need a full econ wipe. all ships, buildings, and warehouses gone and probably all reals, CM and Doubloons also.

:)

 

That is the only way to properly test it, but folks won't be happy.

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In reply to the first post of the Administrator....

This (change) pretty much removes the need for trade ships and reduces the (player) economy to a minor sidenote in the game. This will result in even fewer players as there is virtually no eco. Then again, with an open PVP map, eco players (traders) were already scared of. Because a high server population would make hauling near impossible. And I do believe that many players want to see a more human-, rather than automated driven economy.

Instead of reinventing the wheel I strongly recommend taking a look at the original 'Pirates of the Burning Sea' model (and I would be delighted to elaborate more if dev's ask). For both Eco and pvp/pve. Originally it was perfectly balanced and all if it on just one server model! (current 'potbs' model is crap after SOE, as always, screwed up their game). There was plenty of room for pve/eco players to manoeuvre in as well as pvp players to gank/hunt/conquer and grind, and all of it driven by real player economy.

The new/proposed changes basically puts the economy in the hands of the conquerors/fighter instead of eco players. The more ports you cap the more resources you get (automatically without effort or need for trade) and yes you instantly poop out ships. Meaning that smaller clans will have the hardest time to grow while big clans grower faster and easier the bigger they get. A good design would have this the other way around, the bigger you become the harder it should be to maintain your size....

When I supported NA over 4 years ago I was expecting something closer to 'Pirates of the Burning Sea' but without the crap that broke the game in later stages, not something that's starting to resemble Planetside 2. Now the Dev's are at liberty to 'plot this course' for their game, but I think its doing more harm than good.

Having said that I do not have a major issue with the DLC ships, especially with the above proposed changes as player eco is basically being phased out according the admin's post. And ship building becomes super easy and fast, especially for big clans with plenty of ports and a giant conveyor belts pushing the resources to mass produce fleets. This model actually forces players, not member of a major clan, to buy DLC ships as they cannot compete with the automated eco of the big clans. But a suggestion I made that has gotten good response is to increase the reclaim timer by 24 hrs per rate. So 7th rate every 24 hrs, 6th rate every 48, 5th rate 72... etc.

As an alternative to some of the DLC (or simply prevent the game from being overrun/flooded by DLC. Which by the way cost big bucks just to publish each on steam), and I really do hope the devs take this to heart, is to the introduce a premium membership. I am all for the dev's raising money, its why they do it and there is no shame in it! We all need to pay the bills. But instead of selling more DLC ships and perks (and I do want a few of them!) a more sustainable approach would be memberships. I bet the majority of gamers would be more than happy to pay 5 dollars a month for their account and alts each!! to receive acces to some of the (non ship) DLC. Admiralty/paint and flags DLC are a good start, throw in an extra 5% xp/currency reward and you'll be selling premium memberships like no tomorrow without upsetting player economy. 

I hope my ideas and picking up some very good concept from 'potbs' gains traction. If you agree or disagree please post supported comments (and not rantings) below.

Edited by Praetoriax
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There is good ideas to be implemented in the original post. I think DLC ships, in all iterations/qualities that are crafted can co-exist. Crafting has different rewards and DLC ships has their own as well. There is definately a place for both in this game.  

Right now however crafting is more or less at a slow crawl due to resources and permits. 

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6 hours ago, Diceman said:

Wrong.

Using your logic, maybe DLC ships should only have one broadside allowed in a fight. Or only two sails that move. Or 33% of a full crew compliment... etc...

Seems to me you want the DLC ships nerfed to the point that they’re no greater competition than the AI ships... Yeah, that’ll help PvP... What are you afraid of???

No one will buy or sail a ship they have zero chance to win while fighting.

 

please give me a break, im wrecking noobs that sails dlc sails dlc ships with ai crew space frigates in the patrol zone, its not about nerfing them its actually about making crafting somewhat rewardable. If you clearly cant see that the dlc ships lets you skip past hours of gameplay by just one click then sir you're deluded

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Besides, DLC ship nonsense is not only about economy.

You basically have celtic nacked fighter shouting at you that he can have everything you have if he kills you and if you kill him you will have nothing because he is naked.

Didn't had any fun sinking Hercules and Requins so far knowing they loose nothing. Each battle with DLC's feels like I am obliged to use blank bullets while enemy is using real bullets, they never die and I die if  they shoot me. According what people say, I am supposed to enjoy it because it provides "more" battles!? 😂

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6 hours ago, Diceman said:

That’s why there is war on the server... to obtain the unobtainable...  Nothing is impossible.

Those that can’t get access need to fight harder!!! Be sneakier!!! Get better!! 

And I say this as a member of one of the weaker nations At the moment...

Have you ever heard the therm "dont bring a knife to a gunfight"? You cant fight harder or get sneakier in RvR, its won by points and by actually fighting not running away. If you bring a full oak oak fleet vs a live oak white oak fleet, the fleet with the superior woods will win because they can outbrawl the easier ships and because its circle cap the ships thats lighter cant run

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2 hours ago, Wyy said:

please give me a break, im wrecking noobs that sails dlc sails dlc ships with ai crew space frigates in the patrol zone, its not about nerfing them its actually about making crafting somewhat rewardable. If you clearly cant see that the dlc ships lets you skip past hours of gameplay by just one click then sir you're deluded

You have two replies to me in the space of three messages...

This reply says you can wreck DLC ships whenever you want with trash crafted ships... But DLCs wreck the game cause they let the casual noob get into that fight with you that the noob otherwise wouldn’t or couldn’t because the noobs aren’t crafting ships or don’t have crafted ships that level...

If that noob doesn’t have the DLC ship, he doesn’t get into that fight, you don’t get to wreck him... no PvP for you... no rewards for you... then you’re on here moaning about no PvP... 

The other reply talks about how you can’t win port battles without the meta ship. Meta ships are crafted... How does DLC ships hurt crafting again???

All of these arguments saying DLC hurts crafting is garbage! Crafted ships will always be better. Crafted ships will always be the meta ships for port battles. Crafted ships will always be preferred for hunting in the open world. There will always be a market for crafted ships! 

DLC ships allow noobs to get wrecked by you. That’s a bad thing? DLC ships allow more to participate in PvP. That’s a bad thing? Not everyone on here wants to grind 100 hours to earn their meta ship and lose it to a OW gank. But they may be more than willing to give a good fight in a ship they aren’t so worried about losing. And the fact the ship respawns in 24 hours means they might be back online the next day looking for payback... but that a bad thing, right??

DLC ships hurting this game is FAKE NEWS!!!

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I would just like it to be the way it was 18 months ago. Bring in Region Trim and let people duke it out. Wood is so scarce right now, the only way to get it is to get lucky with a sealed bottle or from AI traders. Are we doing away with the crating system now. If people cant craft good ships then they will not play anymore, and they surely wont buy the DLC knowing that the Ratt isnt the best 4th rate. This game is the only of its kind on the market, listen tho the community and let them help make it great again, then the players will come back and the game will be he greatest hit since sliced bread, or am I missing something?

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4 hours ago, Diceman said:

If that noob doesn’t have the DLC ship, he doesn’t get into that fight, you don’t get to wreck him

Look, you found the problem, but didn't recognize it. The DLC shouldn't be necessary to participate in pvp. New players need to be able to play the game they bought without further purchases, and they need to be able to do this in a time frame that keeps them interested.

  • All permits need to be purchasable via combat metals in the shop.
  • Rare woods have to become less rare.
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12 minutes ago, --Privateer-- said:

Look, you found the problem, but didn't recognize it. The DLC shouldn't be necessary to participate in pvp. New players need to be able to play the game they bought without further purchases, and they need to be able to do this in a time frame that keeps them interested.

  • All permits need to be purchasable via combat metals in the shop.
  • Rare woods have to become less rare.

Or...

We shift the economy so that oakships are the commonly used type of ship.

And in that way we create scarce commodities. Something which can be lots of fun.

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