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On the issue of imported ship permits versus ready imported ships.

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3 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

You played the "mom's basement" card"!  For shame.  I too, enjoy crafting but I can't agree that its fine.  I just can't see any reason to craft a ship if I don't have the best mats.  The problem with this argument is that we are living in a fake world between the old ways and the wipe.  I have plenty of ships from the good ole days and therefor do not need to craft.  What will happen at the wipe?  Will I have to use second tier (or worse) mats to build my ships?  Will I have to cozy up to a clan leader in order to use the mats he controls?  Will I just use DLC's?  In addition...with these changes to the economy, I feel like there will be a lot less traders in OW.  There already is a lot fewer that I can see. 

I see your point but the crafter game is to tailor your product to the market.

The challenge is to obtain those rare woods... there is the risk and reward for crafters!!! 

Meanwhile, there is also a market for the not quite good enough ships... those guys just breaking up into a rank that just want a ship... any ship...

All part of the fun!!!!

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18 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

If we can upgrade/invest ports to have 1 rare resource forest or whatever. Then this is a different story and would be fantastic. A wait and see attitude is best, but i've had enough "wait and see" that I just become frustrated.

Then we will not have a rare commodity. Rare commodities can create a strategic gameplay.

I would make teak, live oak and white oak scarce as today and the midranking woods (ceder etc) a a bit easier to get.

And theni believe we will se strategic warfare around those three commodities.

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4 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

While in RL I'm pretty conservative, I have to admit in this game I am very socialist.  We need easier access to all materials for healthy game play.  Multiple ways to make money and buy what you need.  No Elites withholding mats from the lower orders. This will put more ships in OW...which is what we all want.

Again I see your point but if access to the rare mats was easy then the whole sever would be sailing in meta ships...

Keep certain mats rare!!! Be a hero in your nation by “obtaining” those rare mats and you’ll be able to name your price on the market... cha ching!!!

 

 

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1 minute ago, Diceman said:

I see your point but the crafter game is to tailor your product to the market.

The challenge is to obtain those rare woods... there is the risk and reward for crafters!!! 

Meanwhile, there is also a market for the not quite good enough ships... those guys just breaking up into a rank that just want a ship... any ship...

All part of the fun!!!!

Agreed.  But you speak for a few here.  Do I think I can manage?  Even as a solo?  You bet.  But just listening to the arguments here and what is said on Global chat in game tell me that there is a large percentage of players who are very unhappy with crafting/trading as it stand and @admin's solution in the Op will make it worse for many.  The game needs a healthy trading and crafting sub-game in order to make it whole and it feels like its turning into something else.  Remember when the shops were full of player crafted ships?  Those days are gone and won't be back with this iteration of the economy.

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2 minutes ago, Diceman said:

but if access to the rare mats was easy then the whole sever would be sailing in meta ships...

Not easy.  there needs to be sweat and challenge.  But at the moment, for many, it is impossible...and that is damaging.

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1 minute ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Not easy.  there needs to be sweat and challenge.  But at the moment, for many, it is impossible...and that is damaging.

That’s why there is war on the server... to obtain the unobtainable...  Nothing is impossible.

Those that can’t get access need to fight harder!!! Be sneakier!!! Get better!! 

And I say this as a member of one of the weaker nations At the moment...

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43 minutes ago, pit said:

So this game is being taking over by a bunch of rich spoiled brats?? Can’t be bothered to craft.  Wow GG, this game is literally replacing vets with dlc happy kids. Bye bye rvr, Econ hello streamline arena

Pleb ;)

But on a serious note - The problem with DLC is already here, we can't change the DLCs already in the game so how to make a model that works?

I'd suggest making all ships available ingame as well as DLC (costs are irrelevant, RNG is not - if ppl has to rely on RNG for specific permits, they will find it unfair and quit the game). Ppl will buy the DLCs and either only use those we have, or atm due to the RNG of crafting + clancontrolled rare woods, quit the game. What is needed is a system that is perceived to be fair, accepts the DLC introduction (since that boat has sailed anyway), and still give the average player with an average wallet size (as in - no 30€ for a DLC is way over the top) the chance to compete without 'missing' out on combat due to problems replacing the ship(s).

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7 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Agreed.  But you speak for a few here.  Do I think I can manage?  Even as a solo?  You bet.  But just listening to the arguments here and what is said on Global chat in game tell me that there is a large percentage of players who are very unhappy with crafting/trading as it stand and @admin's solution in the Op will make it worse for many.  The game needs a healthy trading and crafting sub-game in order to make it whole and it feels like its turning into something else.  Remember when the shops were full of player crafted ships?  Those days are gone and won't be back with this iteration of the economy.

I am a solo!!

I love the challenge!

If we could just leave the game be for a bit to see the economy develop... The shops are empty cause we keep resetting... and everyone has to restart everything.  I’m back to craft level 1. Do I want to start another grind if they’re just gonna wipe it again? IDK

If the admins are happy with this current state of economy then let it run awhile and see what’s what...

Remember socialism never works!

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1 hour ago, Barbarosa said:

Correct me if you know a single  "time wall  removal" advocate who is competent and skilled (ROVER's don't count).  

 

I want to remove the time wall so hard that we aren't even on an OW game anymore. 

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3 minutes ago, Mr. Doran said:

 

I want to remove the time wall so hard that we aren't even on an OW game anymore. 

When will we see your next writings on combat tactics??? I very much enjoyed the first one!!!

Edited by Diceman
Grammer

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I would like to take this opportunity to thank the devs for these clarifications. Until now, I was disturbed by NA, that I did not know what was going to happen to this game. As a player who likes to be involved in economics and logistics, the past years have not always been easy to have fun, too little has been done for this area. But there was still the hope that there is still enough to do after release for my type of player.

However, according to the DEVS article, I no longer see enough opportunities for me to work meaningfully in the long term. So just deleted the game. However, after 5000 hours and three years I do not want to go to wish all the players and the DEVS much success for the future

Sponsored by Google Translator 😊

Edited by Georg Fromm
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Just now, Diceman said:

When will we see your next Writing in combat tactics??? I very much enjoyed the first one!!!

I refuse to write a single word again unless we at least get a duel-room and custom-lobby-room back into OW. These and many other illustrations will rot on my HDD until that day comes. 

92dc94ec5852b1c09e7b223eaeb345a3.png

53c72ca8dfee1b0dcddb5a4f4c0d72a7.png

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1 minute ago, Mr. Doran said:

I refuse to write a single word again unless we at least get a duel-room and custom-lobby-room back into OW. These and many other illustrations will rot on my HDD until that day comes. 

92dc94ec5852b1c09e7b223eaeb345a3.png

53c72ca8dfee1b0dcddb5a4f4c0d72a7.png

Shame... it’s good stuff!!

Maybe there should be less moaning about DLC and more moaning for a dueling room... They could even call it the Mr. Doran Room.

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3 hours ago, admin said:

..Now many players say that DLC ships reduce the role of the economy, ..

And they are right

..Here is the rug change that will tie the room together. 

  • Port investments will remove hauling requirements for basic resources for all players who play with friends or have friendly clans in the nation.
  • Clans (and you can have a small clan and capture a distant port to use it) will invest into
    • production of all basic resources in their port
    • defenses to protect it
    • shipbuilding to improve ships built in this region.
  • By doing so - player will get ALL basic resources in one location, completely removing hauling requirements out of the picture. Saving time and getting ships by just spending LH and cooperating together to get rare woods if needed. 

Clan can decide if they want these investments to be available to them only, to friends or to everyone who can build in this port.
QOGCpwG.png 

At the moment most of the ports are useless. Nobody want them, only costs, nobody fight for them. I hope with making a port much more valueable and give the clans more control make them more willing to attack a port. So i really want to test that change and hope i works

 

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3 hours ago, Intrepido said:

You still dont get it.

 

The problems arent getting the basic ressources such as coal, fir, oak...

The problems are trying to get the good woods (teak, live oak, white oak, sabicu, caguairan), the time to grind those doubloons (insane amount) and the risk of hauling those woods to the crafting point.

 

DLCs are a matter of an instant click selecting the woods you desire. Crafting a teak-white Wappen requires effort and time (now much worse due to the permits wall).

He also doesn't understand that some players actually like to do econ/trade/craft and play this game for that more than just the PvP or PvE.  I play all parts of it and I think crafting has been so screwed up that it's almost pointless to craft any more.  Every ship should be craftable in game except super rare ones no matter what.  And he's still wrong about a DLC having an in game crafted equivalent....we still have nothing compared to the LRQ that can be crafted. I made a suggestion of allowing a trader version be a Admiralty shop reward (BLUE PRINT PLEASE) for those that like to do trade and want something special.   That will give a none combat trade ship version to be crafted.  

I actually know several crafters/traders that have stopped playing the game cause no there is no ships for them to craft without having to pay out the arse for permits or expect a luck of a draw from chest drops.  WE DIDN"T DUMB DOWN CRAFTING LIKE I FEARED WE MADE IT 10 TIMES HARDER.

3 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I agree for the most part with your entire post, but the point I've quoted here should get more attention.  The big traders are being left out of this because of the ease in which we can make reals with Cargo missions and passenger deliveries.  I love the ease with which I can get money now, but I have to admit, when hunting, I have not seen very many players in LGVs and Indiamen.  There is simply no need.  This hurts the hunters somewhat.  There still need to be a reason to fleet up a group of Indiamen and go out for a big profit. 

 

I don't see this happening.  A small clan who captures a distant port will simply be an easy target.  They know this and wont risk it.  Please consider the small groups and solo players.  A clan owned port should certainly benefit the clan first.  They did the main work.  They should gain the earnings from taxes.  But allow other national players a piece of the pie, without the owners permission.  When you allow one player (a clan leader) to bar another player (someone he hates) from a rare resource, it leads to some very bad feelings.

We also have the problem of certain large clans claiming all the important ports and no one fighting over them.   There should be a limit of 10 ports per clan.   Yes alt clans can be made, but this means that you cant have one clan own half the map.  They actually have to work with other clans to do so.  BR on ports also need to be fixed cause we have to many small BR ports that are important ports where a small elite clan can hold and keep a port vs a large nation that can fill 25 man ports being able to hold and take a port.  We should be able to increase ports BR if we want and can field bigger fleets than others.

3 hours ago, Socialism said:

I think you missed a key reason why DLC ships are so popular.  Convenience.  It’s not that players don’t want to do the Econ side of things and craft, it’s the fact that it’s 15 combat marks for crafting a surprise when you only receive 2 or 3 for sinking one.  It’s also the fact that better woods are now more costly, more scarce and more time consuming to get.  You’ve essentially made DLC ships the only viable option for quick and carefree PVP.  Especially with a looming wipe.

I made a suggestion on Hachi’s thread the other day to achieve the best of both worlds.  

Redeemable DLC ships are locked to one or 2 wood types and base 3/5s. Like oak/oak Players have the OPTION to redeem a permit and craft their ship for a chance at a 5/5 and premium woods.  Both are locked for 24 hours.  I feel this would be a happy medium. 

DLC should be only blue 3/5 ships with chance of perks.  Only way to get anything better is a ship has to be crafted by a player.  Give crafting a meaning.  We use to have to get to level 50 to make mastercraft stuff.  Do something like that now where it's only the crafters that can produce those exceptional ships not some random note or DLC.   Also allow all ships pretty much to be crafted if you get the BLUE PRINTS.  Lock some of them behind special or rewards, but allow pretty much every ship to be crafted if some one gains a BLUE PRINT.  

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2 hours ago, pit said:

Can we get this implemented in crafting already? To hell with rng!

90B49210-A50C-49A4-8691-6A27B4C1A27D.png

I recently returned to the game after 1.5 years away.  Here is what I found:

1. Although I understand the frustration with DLC ships the reality is they add content to the game which is quite welcome.  I left the game because I would get fed up of sailing around KPR or Ctown and not finding any targets.  Now players come out with DLC ships and redeemable and this gives content.  I have fun hunting at KPR or CTown now.  Players are not scared to lose the DLC and there is not the usual frustration associated with losing the ship.  No threats or comments about giving up the game.  This is good for the game and player base.

2. I do not understand where the devs want to go with crafting.  By making permits and rare woods elusive and hard to obtain players will not risk their crafted ships and this will reduce content and player base.

Recommendations:

1. Reduce the permits costs as it is way too high.  I can hunt for an evening and get 5-10 CM yet it takes 25 CM for a trinc. This makes no sense.  Raise the bar for permits for 3rd rate and up but do not require CM or permits for 4th rates and lower.  If 4th rate and lower do not require permits then there is no need for multi dura ships.

2. Make all woods available and at more than one location.  It is unfair that a DLC ship can be made of rare woods yet it will be out of reach for 95% or more of players in game.  This will only cause frustration and players to leave the game.  The last thing we need is one large clan that controls teak, white oak or live oak with out of reach timers.  I know I would stop playing if such is the case.  Also allowing all crafting to take place at the rare wood port will reduce content since it removes the possibility for hunters to cap rare wood carrying ships.  Rare woods should require transport to the crafting port to allow all players a chance to capture a trader carrying them. 

3. Make the rare wood available in a neutral port that requires the player to sail there to get it.  This port should be placed in an area that requires a bit but not too much sailing but most importantly such port should be in an area that is populated by multiple nations (ie. Bahamas etc.).   This will provide a hot zone for hunting as players will sail there to get the wood.  Make the wood available to all that go there but limit quantities to like 1000 logs per trip so it will require multiple trips.  The price for rare woods would require a mix of doubloons and CM but make this very reasonable not the current 50 000 doubloons for 5k logs (more ships = more content).  The rare wood would be a redeemable note for 1k wood that would weight 1k.  This removes the possibility of leaving some in warehouse at the rare wood neutral port and using a tlynx to escape capture.  Clans would have to work together to form supply missions and sail to these ports with escorts.  

4.  Remove ship rng bonuses when crafting.  Add a note that would ship rank specific to give a particular ship bonuses (see the list above  provided by Pit ie. very fast, fast, sturdy etc.).  Also add the ai bonuses as well but limit the notes to 1 per ship to avoid stacking.  This note can be obtained by RNG when looting ai or players a bit like doubloons.  This note can then be used when redeeming a ship (Pandora), DLC or when crafting.

5. Remove the necessity for doubloons for crafting ships.  Harder ships generations equates to less ships on the OW and less content.  Allow doubloons to be used to purchase perks, rare woods or ships notes as above in 4.

6. Implement a ship market that can be viewed server wide.  This list can show all ships available in freeports for sale.  This way crafters would find a market for their ships and crafting would be encouraged.  Also implement an order form for a ship specifying ship type, wood etc. and provide a mecanism to consign the permit and RNG note.  This would be available to all crafters who can build a ship to that specification.  This will encourage crafters and reduce the frustration with DLC.  This list should be anonymous and also ship delivery should be automated (ie. player who placed order gets the ship at the freeport where he placed the order).

7. Bring back all ships into game such as Santi, renommée, endymion etc.

8. Fix the unbalanced ai ship.  Ai grinding is a chore for vets yet many new players need it to make $ and get mods etc.  The current level of skill of the ai is not only absurd and frustrating but may cause new players to quit and let's face it, most veteran players hate the ai grinding.

9. Remove the ability for trader lynx or basic cutters to do passenger delivery missions.  This is leading to rampant inflation.  Also the current system is flawed.  I have 4 alts.  I can pull the 3 passenger delivery missions with my 1st alt and place them in the hull of my tlynx.  I then trade the ship to each of my alts in succession while pulling the missions for each.  At the end, I have a tlynx with 12 missions with added weight of 12 and can make almost 500 000 reals with virtually no risk.  My tlynx sails at 15.5 and cannot be caught by most ships.  Also, it is not worthwhile to hunt tlynx since it pays very few CM.

10. Add a rng when looting ai or players for a DLC ship note.  This will be rare but may alleviate some of the frustration with DLC.

 

Edited by TheLoneWolf
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4 hours ago, admin said:

On the issue raised by @HachiRoku @Anolytic and many other captains. 

There was a proposal on this forum (i think it was @OjK but can be mistaken)

Proposal was this: sell the permit that the player then will craft (unique ship but still participating in the economy).
Initially thought a great idea. 

Evolution of imported (DLC) ships thinking was this.

  • Premium ships was announced when we did not even think about the open world (in 2014)
  • Premium ships were initially thought as unique status items, a more beautiful alternative. 
  • Some ships introduced over time were not crafteable (Wasa, Hermione) to give us the option to add them to premium roster without taking away crafteable ships. 
  • First experiments were ran with Hercules and LRQ (it wa good to do it in early access as many things were discovered and learnt as a result)

Now many players say that DLC ships reduce the role of the economy, and that there should be deep and interesting MMO economy. 

But let's get this straight. 

  • Crafting was introduced last, and is a least cooked feature, as all focus was always on combat model, rvr and ROE (lately PVE). 
  • Hauling was somewhat forced onto players because some time ago we wanted everyone to be the target. 

And here is the main discovery.

  • Players do not buy DLC ships for uniqueness.
  • They do not buy them because they are stronger or weaker than others (there is always a better crafted ship, sometimes 5/5 crafted ship). Rattvisan is definitely not the best 4th rate. 
     
  • They do buy them to support developers (thank you everyone for support)
  • And they buy them to avoid participation in the exciting economy (mainly hauling).

Trading goods is rewarding and has both risk AND profit. Hauling goods for crafting is boring, not exciting, is risky but gives you no real rewards (you make a ship that you will soon lose anyway). 

Thats why making permit based DLC ships is not going to achieve anything. Thats not what customers want.
 

Now. 
Here is the rug change that will tie the room together. 

  • Port investments will remove hauling requirements for basic resources for all players who play with friends or have friendly clans in the nation.
  • Clans (and you can have a small clan and capture a distant port to use it) will invest into
    • production of all basic resources in their port
    • defenses to protect it
    • shipbuilding to improve ships built in this region.
  • By doing so - player will get ALL basic resources in one location, completely removing hauling requirements out of the picture. Saving time and getting ships by just spending LH and cooperating together to get rare woods if needed. 

Clan can decide if they want these investments to be available to them only, to friends or to everyone who can build in this port.
QOGCpwG.png 

 

As a result.

  • Clans who developed the port will be able to get ships with one click.
  • Enemy clans who do not want to spend time developing ports can try to capture the port from the enemies (why build if you can cap). 
  • There will be a lot less time wasted on hauling and more fighting. 

Exelent !

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4 hours ago, admin said:
  • Players do not buy DLC ships for uniqueness.
  • They do not buy them because they are stronger or weaker than others (there is always a better crafted ship, sometimes 5/5 crafted ship). Rattvisan is definitely not the best 4th rate. 
     
  • They do buy them to support developers (thank you everyone for support)
  • And they buy them to avoid participation in the exciting economy (mainly hauling).

If this is true, then questions arise:

•Why players cannot craft DLC ships?

•Why players cannot capture DLC ships?

•Why descriptions of Hercules & Rattvisan DLCs describe them as "powerful"?

•Why some players didn't enjoy the decrease of DLC ships' statistics? (Hercules & Le Requin)

Now imagine you purchase a car and additional "Engine & Fuel DLC". You have your powerful engine and you enjoy free fuel refill every 24 hours. One day your car manufacturer needs to "balance" your engine and decreases its HP (horse power, do not confuse with health points) by 30%. He says that it's for the public good. He also thanks you for supporting the car manufacturer company, because it's the main reason you purchased the car after all, right? 

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8 minutes ago, TheLoneWolf said:

3. Make the rare wood available in a neutral port that requires the player to sail there to get it.  This port should be placed in an area that requires a bit but not too much sailing but most importantly such port should be in an area that is populated by multiple nations (ie. Bahamas etc.).   This will provide a hot zone for hunting as players will sail there to get the wood.  Make the wood available to all that go there but limit quantities to like 1000 logs per trip so it will require multiple trips.  The price for rare woods would require a mix of doubloons and CM but make this very reasonable not the current 50 000 doubloons for 5k logs (more ships = more content).  The rare wood would be a redeemable note for 1k wood that would weight 1k.  This removes the possibility of leaving some in warehouse at the rare wood neutral port and using a tlynx to escape capture.  Clans would have to work together to form supply missions and sail to these ports with escorts. 

I like this a lot @The LoneWolf.  I would add that these rare items (include copper and carta Tar) be sold in two or three neutral locations and can be purchased only off the shelf..no contracts (I know you implied that).  You would have to sail there and transport your stuff away. 

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@admin, I'm sorry that we do not see this the same way or perhaps I misunderstand.  It sounds like the idea is to take the risk and reward out of crafting altogether as some sort of compromise for the dlc ships.  First "insurance", now this.  I think this makes crafting even less relevant to the game.  I think, as a sandbox game, we need economic incentive. We need ship crafting.

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It seems I might be playing less if these said changes go the way they sound like they will. I craft but this update will make it less rewarding, I like to raid but now there will be a lot less, value of taking multiple ports has decreased so there will be less RvR to participate in. I just do not see myself investing as much time into this game as I do now.

 

PS: was interrupted before finishing. Basically this means less time I invest then the less money I will invest in the game so no more dlc purchases. I rather place that money towards a game that I will invest more time in. Reason why I bought all of Civ 6, all of the Paradox DLCs for Stellaris, HoI 2-4, Victoria 2, CK2, and EU4, and TW:Warhammer2. I spend time in those games significantly. 

Edited by Velhelm Von Marrius

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@admin This change is overall a big step in the right direction. Thanks for that!
The issue of rare woods on DLC ships however remains. which is far more problematic than basic resources.


Therefore let me make the following Suggestion:
If all ports within a single county are owned by one Nation a rare wood forest upgrade for the county capital is applied. This works towards further balancing availability of rare woods for crafting vs. one-Click DLC ships

Edited by Tom Farseer
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10 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

Therefore let me make the following Suggestion:
If all ports within a single county are owned by one Nation a rare wood forest upgrade for the county capital is applied. This works towards further balancing availability of rare woods for crafting vs. one-Click DLC ships

Like this idea.....would help RVR and enhance the need to protect the ports of smaller clans that form part of a county.

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1 minute ago, Roadkill said:

Like this idea.....would help RVR and enhance the need to protect the ports of smaller clans that form part of a county.

I welcome any idea that will make rare woods more available.  Although I like the suggestion it will not provide more content and this will be exploited by alts such as the current rare wood producing ports now are exploited by alts.

We need to remove the rare woods from a specific location and provide a central location for all.  This way there is no exploitation by alts, all have access albeit with some risk and it provides content.

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