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On the issue of imported ship permits versus ready imported ships.

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Stop wanting to nerf the ship DLCs (with common woods...). Just sink the guy in the DLC ship. You'll have pvp and :

  • If he's a casual, he'll stop playing till the next day.
  • If he has time and wants to keep on playing this very night, he will have to get his next ships by crafting or buying them in game.
Edited by LeBoiteux

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Bought game multiple times for alt accounts and never complained about it.

I did bought Req DLC ship to support you, the action I immediately regretted. I was ignorant about how it works and thought that it will give me privileges to craft it, as you did with rare ship crafting permits before (Agamemnon ect.)

As soon as I realized how it works, stopped buying anything you have released and will not buy any further DLC's till you properly correct the current state of them. 

 

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Ahhh *sigh*

Again...I get it, some people don't want to be part of the economy. People don't want to spend time finding woods and crafting ships.

Your solution is to make resources be supported in one port if a clan invests in it. Honestly that's not the complaint here.

I don't think any minds a bit of trading or a bit if hauling - we accept that is how economy works.

This is not how you fix an economy and crafting system....

1. No one knows where the forests in a general sense. Players should know.

2. Permits are garbage. Lineships should ONLY be victory mark costs. 

3. DLCs loop through the economy in more than 1 way.

A player who redeems a DLC doesn't need resources to craft ships AND they don't need doubloons to redeem the clan resources. On top of the fact that I may craft an aggamemnon with rare woods and i may lose the ship - it hurts my economy faarrrrr greater than a DLC ship. When you sink a DLC ship it feels like you did absolutely nothing to the overall economy and it's not fun nor enjoyable....

 

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There you have it folks, Developer statement that economy is to be swept out piecemeal.

Dont want to deal with the broken rare woods market? buy high rate DLC.

Dont want to risk moving resources from port to port? investments! no more sailing needed.

So trade ships will be carrying only FedEx packages, war ships will be only DLC or inferior Oak/Oak ships. Dont bother trying to commit piracy or privateering, you cant capture most enemy ships since they're imported, and if you catch a trade ship, all you get is a mission item that you could have picked up in port at no cost anyway!

Admin, You have taken a once functional but unpolished sandbox MMO, and turned it an arcade with terrible matchmaking. An RVR game which allows people to entirely opt out of the need to fight for control of rare woods, for control of trade goods, for anything whatsoever, by virtue of being able to buy a DLC which obviates any need for them to do so, is not an RVR game. So your end game content is hollow. Piracy and privateering is pointless when you either cannot keep what you steal. and PvP? all you will have is people bashing their DLC "4th" rates together. We already have a 70 gun "4th" rate, when can we buy a 110 gun "4th" rate? that could probably sell for at least $59.99. You, Admin, have no clue what you're doing, either with a business model, or with running a sandbox MMO. You've bled us of time and money, and I'm done with it. I dont care if you once had a legitimate love and care in what you started, at this point your actions are transparent. Remember that Naval Action Legends you tried once? Go with that, it may be the only way to salvage this mess you've made.

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7 minutes ago, Wyy said:

true, they are for quick fighting right? so whats the point giving a dlc ship live oak | white oak option or teak | white oak, they are there for a quick fight and sink am i right @admin

Fighting ore just to be slaughtered. Think there is a difference. But ofc thats just my opinion. 

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10 minutes ago, Vizzini said:

DLC are fine by me, not forced onto anybody. They are mostly bought by players to bypass the grind or to save time but no way would I offer financial support ( purchasing dlc ships and stuff )  if the game turns into an arena style game with the OW as a lobby.w

It's forced on regular players. I'm forced to fight DLC ships. I'm forced to NOT be able to capture these ships because they're DLC. I'm forced to deal with the fact that if I sink one DLC, it will respawn the next day, unlike my ships which cost in game money in time. I'm playing at a disadvantage against DLC buyers and that's forced. It's one of the reasons why launch potential is hurt, if you can't beat the lack of economy with economy, then people will be forced to either be really good at making money, or get sent back to 0 by people in DLC ships with no chance of retaliation in the same way. They'll have to buy the DLC in order to compete on the same level, which will drive a lot of potential players away with the pay2win aspect of the whole thing, which will be severely damaging to this game's reception at launch.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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57 minutes ago, admin said:

On the issue raised by @HachiRoku @Anolytic and many other captains. 

There was a proposal on this forum (i think it was @OjK but can be mistaken)

Proposal was this: sell the permit that the player then will craft (unique ship but still participating in the economy).
Initially thought a great idea. 

Evolution of imported (DLC) ships thinking was this.

  • Premium ships was announced when we did not even think about the open world (in 2014)
  • Premium ships were initially thought as unique status items, a more beautiful alternative. 
  • Some ships introduced over time were not crafteable (Wasa, Hermione) to give us the option to add them to premium roster without taking away crafteable ships. 
  • First experiments were ran with Hercules and LRQ (it wa good to do it in early access as many things were discovered and learnt as a result)

Now many players say that DLC ships reduce the role of the economy, and that there should be deep and interesting MMO economy. 

But let's get this straight. 

  • Crafting was introduced last, and is a least cooked feature, as all focus was always on combat model, rvr and ROE (lately PVE). 
  • Hauling was somewhat forced onto players because some time ago we wanted everyone to be the target. 

And here is the main discovery.

  • Players do not buy DLC ships for uniqueness.
  • They do not buy them because they are stronger or weaker than others (there is always a better crafted ship, sometimes 5/5 crafted ship). Rattvisan is definitely not the best 4th rate. 
     
  • They do buy them to support developers (thank you everyone for support)
  • And they buy them to avoid participation in the exciting economy (mainly hauling).

Trading goods is rewarding and has both risk AND profit. Hauling goods for crafting is boring, not exciting, is risky but gives you no real rewards (you make a ship that you will soon lose anyway). 

Thats why making permit based DLC ships is not going to achieve anything. Thats not what customers want.
 

Now. 
Here is the rug change that will tie the room together. 

  • Port investments will remove hauling requirements for basic resources for all players who play with friends or have friendly clans in the nation.
  • Clans (and you can have a small clan and capture a distant port to use it) will invest into
    • production of all basic resources in their port
    • defenses to protect it
    • shipbuilding to improve ships built in this region.
  • By doing so - player will get ALL basic resources in one location, completely removing hauling requirements out of the picture. Saving time and getting ships by just spending LH and cooperating together to get rare woods if needed. 

Clan can decide if they want these investments to be available to them only, to friends or to everyone who can build in this port.
QOGCpwG.png 

 

As a result.

  • Clans who developed the port will be able to get ships with one click.
  • Enemy clans who do not want to spend time developing ports can try to capture the port from the enemies (why build if you can cap). 
  • There will be a lot less time wasted on hauling and more fighting. 

It is still about dubloons and rare woods. Basic resources doesnt matter since you made crafting so easy that you dont even need much mats to craft a ship. No carriages anymore, no planks, no tar just some basic resources. That move is making redeemable imported ships even more game breaking. Look at shallows RvR screenshots. Most of ships there are imported Hercules and Requin. Nobody will risk their hard earned crafted vessels that cost them random dropped permits etc when they can just redeem rare wood ship. Shallow water is totally broken due to imported ships. I dont expect anything else with deep water ship added, only with smaller impact as there is no 3rd rate and above DLC (yet).

I think that your current game model would do good with our removed long ago feature - multi dura ships. People would be more courageous to sail crafted rare vessels and the impact of loosing them to DLC ship wouldnt be that big. Give crafted ships multi dura back, leave DLC ships with 1 dura only when blue but if redeemed purple or gold give them 2 or 3 durabilities. This way DLC's will still be interesting but people wont be that reckless when sailing their gold DLC ships.

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8 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

Stop wanting to nerf the ship DLCs (with common woods...). Just sink the guy in the DLC ship. You'll have pvp and :

  • If he's a casual, he'll stop playing till the next day.
  • If he has time and wants to keep on playing this very night, he will have to get his next ships by crafting or buying them in game.

It's like all some people care about is a battle and because of that you basically trash the rest of the game.

Pvp is the heart of an MMO - but pvp for the sake of just pvp is  an arena game like NAL or WOT or Warthunder.

Lets be serious, it's time for the admin to decide whether Naval Action is supposed to be an Arena game or an MMO.

@HachiRoku is exactly right - this hybrid nonsense is giving us the worst of both genres.

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3 minutes ago, Borch said:

 

I think that your current game model would do good with our removed long ago feature - multi dura ships. People would be more courageous to sail crafted rare vessels and the impact of loosing them to DLC ship wouldnt be that big. Give crafted ships multi dura back, leave DLC ships with 1 dura only when blue but if redeemed purple or gold give them 2 or 3 durabilities. This way DLC's will still be interesting but people wont be that reckless when sailing their gold DLC ships.

Bringing multible durabilities back to ships and making dlc ships be 1 dura would be a great start to giving actual crafted ships and game economy a reason to be interacted with again.

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1 hour ago, admin said:

But let's get this straight. 

  • Crafting was introduced last, and is a least cooked feature, as all focus was always on combat model, rvr and ROE (lately PVE). 
  • Hauling was somewhat forced onto players because some time ago we wanted everyone to be the target. 

I get what you're saying, but it is now a fact that crafting and trading is a very big part of many player's game.  You're seeing a lot of bitterness because whether or not it was important back then, it matters now.  You could actually stop a lot of the complaints if you brought crafting and trading back to what it was a year ago.  Lets face it....ships were in OW then. 

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22 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

It's like all some people care about is a battle and because of that you basically trash the rest of the game.

Pvp is the heart of an MMO - but pvp for the sake of just pvp is  an arena game like NAL or WOT or Warthunder.

Lets be serious, it's time for the admin to decide whether Naval Action is supposed to be an Arena game or an MMO.

@HachiRoku is exactly right - this hybrid nonsense is giving us the worst of both genres.

Ship DLCs break the time wall for gamers with a limited amount of time, 1 ship per day per DLC. Hurray !!!

I know some have always liked this time wall from the start.

Edited by LeBoiteux

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1 hour ago, Sella22 said:

But doesn't that remove a part of the gameplay -raiding? Me and many other clan members prefer that kind of gameplay, probably other people too. Personally I don't want to fight just for the sake of the fight. Raiding was a huge part of the era

with DLCs there is already no raiding or whatever is left of it. Soon all of it will be gone. NA will become paid arena game with paid ships and OW "feature" for sightseeing. 

so DLC ships ruined economy, no economy means ruined RvR. Almost every upgrade can be purchased with PvP marks so another nail into the head of RvR/Economy. Now 1 port will be enough for entire clan to have entire economy running and you will be able to 1-click ships to shorten the difference in effort needed to build ships compared to DLC ships. 

Looks like you have a room with 2 dirty walls and 2 clean walls, so you're going to stain the other 2 clean walls so all of them look similar and match with each other. 

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35 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

it will respawn the next day, unlike my ships which cost in game money in time.

Your labor hours magically grow on trees - which is stupid - you should hire workers for money. Your trees magically appear from thin air too once a day, unlike Archeage where you have to cut them yourself. All you need is click a button. Deepest crafting ever. Does not need both time and money as people are swimming in money. All is given to you on the plate.
 

Edited by Parratoppa

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47 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Imported ships should not have the option to choose woods, just add a "neutral wood" that doesnt excels at anything.

No to this!

I believe you’re putting far too great importance to wood selection... that’s just one factor in making a ship.

Many other factors still have to be obtained in game for ships to be good or great, DLC or crafted... 

Removing choice from the players in this game is always a negative!!

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On 4/10/2019 at 9:57 AM, Parratoppa said:

Your labor hours magically grow on trees - which is stupid - you should hire workers for money. Your trees magically appear from thin air too once a day, unlike Archeage where you have to cut them yourself. All you need is click a button. Deepest crafting ever. Does not need both time and money as people are swimming in money. All is given to you on the plate.
 

Yet somehow DLC's top this by being the most magical one click, and you have a ship of any wood type instantly.
"All is given to you on the plate" This is true for DLC but not for crafting, but it will be soon because DLC has set the bar so low.
Also, if crafting was so easy as you make it then the argument that people who work and don't have time to get ships is disingenuous, a lie.
Edited out the P2W nonsense.  -Staff.

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1 hour ago, admin said:

On the issue raised by @HachiRoku @Anolytic and many other captains. 

There was a proposal on this forum (i think it was @OjK but can be mistaken)

Proposal was this: sell the permit that the player then will craft (unique ship but still participating in the economy).
Initially thought a great idea. 

Evolution of imported (DLC) ships thinking was this.

  • Premium ships was announced when we did not even think about the open world (in 2014)
  • Premium ships were initially thought as unique status items, a more beautiful alternative. 
  • Some ships introduced over time were not crafteable (Wasa, Hermione) to give us the option to add them to premium roster without taking away crafteable ships. 
  • First experiments were ran with Hercules and LRQ (it wa good to do it in early access as many things were discovered and learnt as a result)

Now many players say that DLC ships reduce the role of the economy, and that there should be deep and interesting MMO economy. 

But let's get this straight. 

  • Crafting was introduced last, and is a least cooked feature, as all focus was always on combat model, rvr and ROE (lately PVE). 
  • Hauling was somewhat forced onto players because some time ago we wanted everyone to be the target. 

And here is the main discovery.

  • Players do not buy DLC ships for uniqueness.
  • They do not buy them because they are stronger or weaker than others (there is always a better crafted ship, sometimes 5/5 crafted ship). Rattvisan is definitely not the best 4th rate. 
     
  • They do buy them to support developers (thank you everyone for support)
  • And they buy them to avoid participation in the exciting economy (mainly hauling).

Trading goods is rewarding and has both risk AND profit. Hauling goods for crafting is boring, not exciting, is risky but gives you no real rewards (you make a ship that you will soon lose anyway). 

Thats why making permit based DLC ships is not going to achieve anything. Thats not what customers want.
 

Now. 
Here is the rug change that will tie the room together. 

  • Port investments will remove hauling requirements for basic resources for all players who play with friends or have friendly clans in the nation.
  • Clans (and you can have a small clan and capture a distant port to use it) will invest into
    • production of all basic resources in their port
    • defenses to protect it
    • shipbuilding to improve ships built in this region.
  • By doing so - player will get ALL basic resources in one location, completely removing hauling requirements out of the picture. Saving time and getting ships by just spending LH and cooperating together to get rare woods if needed. 

Clan can decide if they want these investments to be available to them only, to friends or to everyone who can build in this port.
QOGCpwG.png 

 

As a result.

  • Clans who developed the port will be able to get ships with one click.
  • Enemy clans who do not want to spend time developing ports can try to capture the port from the enemies (why build if you can cap). 
  • There will be a lot less time wasted on hauling and more fighting. 

So... No hauling means more fighting?

But if everyone can get everything with a click where did the PvP go then? - RvR is not PvP.

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21 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

Ship DLCs break the time wall for gamers with a limited amount of time, 1 ship per day per DLC. Hurray !!!

I know some have always liked this time wall from the start.

I don't disagree, but there has to be an incentive for ppl to go into the OW for other reasons than RvR.. Econ needs money sinks, stuff that is readily available but exorbitantly expensive - like mods, special guns (edinorog guns etc) and crafting unfortunately will take a backseat due to the 'rare' woods, permitwalls and the availability of competitive DLC ships.

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I havent read all the posts in this thread so excuse me if i  copy  someone eslse point

While I understand the original post and the explanations given  there are areas that give me concern

while the dlc ship does give players the opportunity to play the game in a decent ship, it is starting to make the game unplayable for those who dont want or cant justify to family the cost of the dlc

for instance last night GB had a fleet of russian Rattvisans parked outside KPR .. I would have liked to engage them in battle ,,, however not having the dlc myself I have to balance the chances  losing one of my ships against that of been able to replace it ... the answer was i cannot afford to take the chance .. the player in the dlc  lets say teak/wo ship doesnt care if he is sunk because he will get another tomorrow .this also changes his play style .. he can take risks he wouldnt take in a crafted ship . whereas i will probably be  unable to replace my ship because teak and white oak are imposible to get if your in GB at the moment .. so i am more carefull in my play style

add on top of that been able to get a permit for said ship ... yes i can use another lesser  build but then im just cannon fodder where is the fun in that

yes the new port crafting will cut out hauling but it still restricts building ships to finding rare woods and perrmits

its a downward spiral , i cant find rare woods so i build inferior ships to the dlc .. i get sunks ..i dont  get combat medals so i cant get permits .. so i  jave to build inferior ships and get sunk again ... i cant compete in a port battle because i have an inferior ship so I cant attack ports that have rare woods .. there is no positive way out of this downward spiral

 

last point at releae xp is been taken away which is fine  it has to be fair for everyone ... but it isnt fair because of the dlc ships ... A clan with a number of dlc ship owners will take every valuable port in game with the new ships because those without the dlc will be unale to compete ... doing yj etutorial and a bit of pve will soon give you enough rank t crew your  teak /wo or live/ white oak rattvisan ... if you dont have the dlc there is no way you can craft a ship to compete with this in the first week or two after release

 

seems to me that the release of especially the rattvisan dlc before the release of the game has not been thought through , as unless i buy the dlct here is no way i can compete on full release of the game .

 

 

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26 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

Ship DLCs break the time wall for gamers with a limited amount of time, 1 ship per day per DLC. Hurray !!!

I know some have always liked this time wall from the start.

When I don't have time to participate in time consuming RvR frequently I didn't asked for removal of time wall. I just joined whenever I had time. Asking for adjustment to suit me never crossed my mind.

If you don't have that much time, you can craft/haul one day and fight another day. Besides crafting and hauling was always very easy. People complaining about crafting never sound genuine to me. Either they are playing a wrong game (this is not MOBA yet) or enjoy ruining others experience, just because they are not competent enough. Correct me if you know a single  "time wall  removal" advocate who is competent and skilled (ROVER's don't count).  

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3 minutes ago, shunt said:

for instance last night GB had a fleet of russian Rattvisans parked outside KPR .. I would have liked to engage them in battle ,,, however not having the dlc myself I have to balance the chances  losing one of my ships against that of been able to replace it ... the answer was i cannot afford to take the chance .. the player in the dlc  lets say teak/wo ship doesnt care if he is sunk because he will get another tomorrow .this also changes his play style .. he can take risks he wouldnt take in a crafted ship . whereas i will probably be  unable to replace my ship because teak and white oak are imposible to get if your in GB at the moment .. so i am more carefull in my play style This goes to the root of the problem. DLC ships are P2W unless those ships, or ships similar to those can be readily obtained in the OW.

 

I agree. Even if I support the DLC ships (we've already got them, they can't be changed so we have to find a way to make them work in NA), I'd actually suggest all ships as DLC ships (and have), but all ships NEED to be obtainable ingame in a way that players who choose not to buy the DLC won't be forced out of the game. As the permitwalls, rare woods and mods is at the moment players are effectually being forced out of the game or parts of the game.

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1 hour ago, Wyy said:

true, they are for quick fighting right? so whats the point giving a dlc ship live oak | white oak option or teak | white oak, they are there for a quick fight and sink am i right @admin

Wrong.

Using your logic, maybe DLC ships should only have one broadside allowed in a fight. Or only two sails that move. Or 33% of a full crew compliment... etc...

Seems to me you want the DLC ships nerfed to the point that they’re no greater competition than the AI ships... Yeah, that’ll help PvP... What are you afraid of???

No one will buy or sail a ship they have zero chance to win while fighting.

 

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9 minutes ago, Koveras said:

I don't disagree, but there has to be an incentive for ppl to go into the OW for other reasons than RvR.. Econ needs money sinks, stuff that is readily available but exorbitantly expensive - like mods, special guns (edinorog guns etc) and crafting unfortunately will take a backseat due to the 'rare' woods, permitwalls and the availability of competitive DLC ships.

I think that's the huge irony of all of the changes recently and the ones talked about here. Essentially the active and passive money sinks of crafting and taxes have no way to keep up with inflation now that most of the motivation for trading and crafting has been removed.  People are amassing huge amounts of reals from delivery and passenger missions with essentially nothing to spend it on, all while satisfying their ship/combat needs with DLC ships that are free.

With all of these changes in the economy so "close" to release I doubt there's any way to properly balance the economy, and inflation will eat away at the entire game ecosystem.  This is the nature of non-player-based MMO economies and seems to be a huge failing of the Naval Action mechanics and testing. All of the economic bones of such games have to be in place throughout a long enough period of testing in order to understand the complex interactions in place... and sadly, after three years we're no closer to that than we were on Day 1 of Early Access.

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1 hour ago, Wyy said:

true, they are for quick fighting right? so whats the point giving a dlc ship live oak | white oak option or teak | white oak, they are there for a quick fight and sink am i right @admin

Wrong.

Using your logic, maybe DLC ships should only have one broadside allowed in a fight. Or only two sails that move. Or 33% of a full crew compliment... etc...

Seems to me you want the DLC ships nerfed to the point that they’re no greater competition than the AI ships... Yeah, that’ll help PvP... What are you afraid of???

No one will buy or sail a ship they have zero chance to win in while fighting.

 

Edited by Diceman
Duplicate post... sorry

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