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There is a very good youtube video online discussing the trends of modern OW games.

The main question is: too much grind and forcing the players into "work" they just don't want to do and this over and over again creates endless boredom and frustration.

I think this hits the nail on the head regarding current OW in NA.

Unfortunately this is in german, but if you are capable of understand then I'll strongly recommend watching.

-- Mikawa

 

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Posted (edited)

Grind is completely in the perspective of the player. The moment you stop having fun then it becomes a grind. NA's grind is almost entirely in it's AI. You have to grind AI for ships slots and books, you do it so much you learn to dislike AI battles because you're so forced to do it, even in RVR for lack of better options. Question this, can NA's war server even function without AI? Like can the developers piece together the same features without using AI as a progress buffer? Maybe we're tired of the mundane. My favorite version of NA is still patch 10. It was hard, but that's what made it not a grind. Once it became easy is when you had to do the same things over and over again to make the same progress, thanks to inflation.

For example, cannons often costed more than the actual ships back then. This made people work together hard to capture iron ports, and get people crafting. Ships of course being crafted by one of the many dedicated crafters in each clan (every clan had 3-4 guys who devoted themselves to crafting) The rest of the clan, and I mean the entire clan worked to put resources in the hands of the crafters so we could all have ships. Where it never reached was into open market. There just wasn't enough supply available to fund outside of clans.

Besides that, it was a great game. So much work towards a common goal, that's what made it fun. I can get behind doing an AI run for clan or nation so we can craft a few ships to market, or get longs in one of our frontline ports, I can't do the same for myself. I could have 100 ships, every upgrade and infinite repairs and still be bored. If battles are no more than a pursuit of more gold, more marks, more ships then what? If you're not doing things that can only be possible in a OW game, then what's the point? Play a lobby game and  get the same thing, focused down in a more tasteful package. All this map space, is just space not being used for anything important. That's how I feel about it.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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But grind isnt the problem in an open world game.

The problem is, that the players are too lazy...

In NA you can have fights without grinding.

 

I remember after steam release, almost every player was grinding with NPC fleets. why???

Go in a small ship and find pvp and have fun, instead of 100´s of hours grinding with fighting bots.

U dont have to be max rank to have fun or play the game.

The other problem, when players have grinded to max rank, they are tired and always crying for more content, because they are max rank and have nothing to do.

 

Grinding for something, is the reason why you play a game for a long time, its not the goal to reach it in the fastest way.

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31 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

My favorite version of NA is still patch 10

But the devs had to consider the dip in concurrent online numbers. I played P10, like you, but it seems "most" people voted no. How do you calculate that?

 

28 minutes ago, Salty Sails said:

The problem is, that the players are too lazy...

Ah, and how do you propose fixing players?

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39 minutes ago, Salty Sails said:

Go in a small ship and find pvp and have fun, instead of 100´s of hours grinding with fighting bots.

But here again you find only frustration except you have the book (mega grind) and the woods (1st rates with mega grind to cap ports). So where is the alternative?

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, mikawa said:

 

But here again you find only frustration except you have the book (mega grind) and the woods (1st rates with mega grind to cap ports). So where is the alternative?

You will find frustration in every game, you will die or lose something, but you dont stop playing right, its part of a learning process, to get a better player.

Btw. i captured my art of cargo distribution book from an enemy in his basic cutter.

You dont need first rates to capture shallow ports and you can win PBs without first rates, with mixed fleets and capping circles.

RVR in a clan to capture deep water ports is part of end game content for now.

Edited by Salty Sails

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24 minutes ago, Salty Sails said:

You will find frustration in every game, you will die or lose something, but you dont stop playing right, its part of a learning process, to get a better player

I totally agree as long as every player has the same preconditions. Nowadays precondition is best upgrades & best books. We had already times in this game when skill of the player was the main argument to win. This is long gone, but it was way more fun.

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12 minutes ago, mikawa said:

I totally agree as long as every player has the same preconditions. Nowadays precondition is best upgrades & best books. We had already times in this game when skill of the player was the main argument to win. This is long gone, but it was way more fun.

Upgrades? I thought, the new upgrades from admirality,  should close the gap, between players with best upgrades? Aren´t the new upgrades not the same like, ellite french or cartagena refit?

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The thrill in OW games comes from there vastness. The knowledge that you might travel for hours without seeing anyone, but at the same time the lack of attention for a single minute (second in some games) can kill you and throw you back a long way. I played Arma 2 Dayz Mod and their variations for a long time befor switching to this game, and i love the OW, for you will never know what might linger behind the next corner, behind the next island. Most likely nothing. Perhaps your doom. Perhaps plentiful splendor and treasure like you never have seen befor. There is only one way to find out ;)

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to me, playing OW successfully, has some things in common with this description of my favorite pool varient (0:50-1:30):

 

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1 hour ago, Durin said:

The thrill in OW games comes from there vastness. The knowledge that you might travel for hours without seeing anyone, but at the same time the lack of attention for a single minute (second in some games) can kill you and throw you back a long way. I played Arma 2 Dayz Mod and their variations for a long time befor switching to this game, and i love the OW, for you will never know what might linger behind the next corner, behind the next island. Most likely nothing. Perhaps your doom. Perhaps plentiful splendor and treasure like you never have seen befor. There is only one way to find out

That's my opinion too and it has nothing to do with my OP. The OP is about mechanics that destroy this feeling completely. If am forced to do this boredom of grinding then I have no thrill.

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Nobody forces you to grind. And i bet that most high lvl players can tell you, that they have 5-10 ships of the line in their docks collecting dust, because sailing small ships is so much more fun. If they increase the xp threshold needed to sail 1st rates im happy to sail a snow for a long time, as its so much more fun to be fast and agile :)

As this is a "Sandbox" game, there is no need to lvl up, get the biggest ship etc to be able to participate in endgame content. You can do what you like not what you must. You want to sail in Portbattles? no need to bring a SoL, fast and small ships are needet in those aswell.

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Posted (edited)

No one is forcing anyone to "Grind".  Just let go.  Do something else.     Just let go. 

Personally, I like the OW and the open sea.  It is the vastness that keeps me coming back.

 

These conversations are fascinating.  I've never felt that the game-play in NA is a grind.  If I was not still enjoying the game I would stop playing.  I'm having a tough time imagining the mindset that a person will continue to keep playing when they hate it.  Seems strange.  

Perhaps it is a little like a gambling casino where patrons keep playing even though they know that they will never win.  A sort of monkey trap.

 

Edited by Macjimm
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Durin said:

Nobody forces you to grind. And i bet that most high lvl players can tell you, that they have 5-10 ships of the line in their docks collecting dust, because sailing small ships is so much more fun. If they increase the xp threshold needed to sail 1st rates im happy to sail a snow for a long time, as its so much more fun to be fast and agile :)

As this is a "Sandbox" game, there is no need to lvl up, get the biggest ship etc to be able to participate in endgame content. You can do what you like not what you must. You want to sail in Portbattles? no need to bring a SoL, fast and small ships are needet in those aswell.

You are talking about old naval action. Before very rare woods, before damage model, before permits, before LRQ and Hercules dlc. 

What you talk is history, RIP. 

Edited by Aerospace
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30 minutes ago, Macjimm said:

These conversations are fascinating.  I've never felt that the game-play in NA is a grind.  If I was not still enjoying the game I would stop playing.  I'm having a tough time imagining the mindset that a person will continue to keep playing when they hate it.  Seems strange.

If I would hate it, I would not discuss. I love the sailing sim behind, but I hate the way of advancing, AI is really strong now. I think you don't get that leveling up again would be a pain. If you sail your first 5th (lowest is cerb) and you have to get ship knowledge you can forget these kill missions. There you face much stronger enemies and you'll be sunk. You can forget attacking 6th it gives you far too less XP. You can forget OW hunting after AI. You have to sail to enemy waters where 3rd d´rates lurk. You are forced to sail around endlessly just to find an adequate target. 

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Posted (edited)

a few minutes ago i got 500 xp for 2 chain broadsides in a fight where nobody died and i left after a couple of minutes. so much for how hard it is to get xp ;D

Edited by Durin
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39 minutes ago, Aerospace said:

Before very rare woods, before damage model, before permits, before LRQ and Hercules dlc.

a good captain in a snow can take apart any average/noob in a herc or requin, no matter the wood. and if skill is more important then equipment.... what exactly is your point?

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8 hours ago, mikawa said:

You have to sail to enemy waters where 3rd d´rates lurk. You are forced to sail around endlessly just to find an adequate target

I don't have to do anything.  Nothing is forcing me to sail endlessly.  

Anyone without enough XP to enjoy the game can always unplug, take a break.  No-one is a captive here.  Or find something to do that requires less XP.   There are lots of options.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Durin said:

a good captain in a snow can take apart any average/noob in a herc or requin, no matter the wood. and if skill is more important then equipment.... what exactly is your point?

My point is, that was in the past, I used to do that in my snow. Hercules/LRQ were easy, but now 32pd carros will shred Snow / Prince into pieces. I have tried very difficult. (I have won against many ships in my snow, up to Bellona, but it is history.) I mean many things has changed, 6pd cannons or 18 pd carros are not enough. 

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On 4/7/2019 at 4:32 AM, jodgi said:

But the devs had to consider the dip in concurrent online numbers. I played P10, like you, but it seems "most" people voted no. How do you calculate that?

 

Ah, and how do you propose fixing players?

Well there are operations to ensure they dont breed even lazier future players... But that is a long term solution:)

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Here is my take on having a good grind in this game , the more people out sailing the more fun there might be had. I understand some people may not have the time that it might take to earn 1m or more from doing missions in a day but you can only do your part. Try and find that happy place where you enjoy it , talk to friends , chat in nation chat or what ever else you can do while out sailing. Although I do hate this new crafting XP nerf. 

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