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Dear Devs

I know these are not the best times in the world to make a topic like this but until I get an argument that crushes mine I cannot and will not stop fighting for what I believe is the only way to save this game. I will be blunt. You have dug yourself a grave with DLC ships being noncraftable. The issue you have created is that you cannot ever sell a dlc ship again unless it is balanced in the combat instance. If you release a ship like the Rattvisan and it is nerfed by design very few will buy the ship. If you make the Rattvisen balanced to other 4th rates like the aggy it will become overpowered in the economy because it doesn't need to be crafted. There are many players that are disappointed that you changed your mine about ship of the line dlcs. Personally I love the idea of ship of the line but unless they become craftable you are breaking your own game mechanics. When the community asked for a sandbox you said yes. When the community asked to be able to craft ships and you said yes. When you released 30 ships instead of the 10 ships that were promised noone thanked you for the extra ships. NOONE  made a steam violation tread saying you released 20 more ships than promised. They did however go completely insane when you decided to release 1 4th rate as DLC. I know the world is not fair but some of us do know what you have done for us and we are grateful. So grateful to have a sailing game that is one of a kind with NO competition. Not many developers can say that about their games. This is however the problem. You spent years trying to make sandbox work in a very very difficult genre. No developer has ever done this before in a sailing game and you took the risks. The idea about your instanced battles in an open world is genius if you ask me. The 20min timers not :p  I just don't understand why you are trowing all that hard work away with the completely broken DLC ships. DLC ships by design go against everything that crafting and eco is about. I know there are many players that dislike eco including myself but the game is eco focused. At its core trading and shipbuilding are just as important as the combat model. DLC ships bypassing crafting is a major issue that needs to be reverted or it will become such a major problem that you will have way bigger issues down the line. I want 1st rates as dlc. I want 2nd rates and 3rd rates as DLC. If all DLC ships are craftable it can work. It doesn't matter what you "promised" What matters to me and the majority of the community(I hope community agree) is that the game works. We want an economy that works. We want DLC that work. Both of these things can exist together but you are the only ones that have the power to make it work.

First step in solving an issue is accepting there is one admin. You need to accept that DLC ships are gamebreaking. They break the fundamental core mechanics of Naval Action sandbox. That is Crafting and Trading. I implore you to change your mind. I do not know how many players like the current DLC model but liking has nothing to do with it. Game mechanics are MORE IMPORTANT than anyones convenience. 

By craftable i mean you get a ship permit when you redeem. (No free DLC ships!.)

 

Edited by HachiRoku
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I didn't read all your post which I k ow is wrong.

But what I took away and agree with most is that DLC ships should be craftable too.

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I would like to ask moderators to delete any post that mentions cost of ships on steam. I want this topic to be about in game economy. 

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I completely disagree with the final lines of your post. DLC ships as redeemable permits won't be sold and I want the game to actually exist in 10 years from now.

As to the majority of your writing - making all ships craftable ingame - I completely agree. True this means some will be able to buy a ship from the steam store whilst others will have to work for it, but the good thing about that is that some will buy a DLC or two, most will craft what ships they need excluding those ships they mostly use for PvP which in turn will improve the amount of PvP ingame.

I think everyone knows the herc DLC was the redeeming factor for the shallow PZ.. The Rättvisan (or however it's going to be spelled) will be the same for the La Mona PZ and prob the Aves PZ as well, as soon as this banhammerhappy community gets their heads cooled a bit off and ppl (hopefully) return to the game.

The jumping point for me is: Ships has to be craftable ingame and all ships should be available as DLC to promote PvP, that way no one can say that a DLC ship is OP or P2W since everyone can get their hands on the ship. What about econ you might ask? - I'm glad you did!

We need money sinks. Edinoroogs for sale at every capital at insane prizes. All mods should be taken out and rebalanced/reintroduced and instead of being craftable they should be for sale at every capital at insane prizes (in reals, not CM or VM, there needs to be an incentive to ppl for trading). Another thing about econ is that every sellable item should be playercrafted instead of the current system. Want to corner the fine fabrics market? - build a factory that weaves the fabrics and continue upgrading the factory. This in turn will also be a money sink (investment in time and effort), one thing I think we could do was to make captitals unable to support any factories and if/when raids become implemented then the raided port is razed to the ground effectively removing all buildings in the port. We could elaborate, but I'm already pressing the topic in a different direction - sorry.

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13 minutes ago, Koveras said:

I completely disagree with the final lines of your post. DLC ships as redeemable permits won't be sold and I want the game to actually exist in 10 years from now.

Why won't DLC permits be sold? Are you seriously asking a developer to make you free DLC for ten years? Who is going to pay for the server upkeep? Who is going to pay for the developers food and housing? You must be kidding. Nothing would change. The DLC ships would still be broken and the game will be dead in a year. I cannot believe you seriously expect free content. 

BTW you completly missed the point of this whole topic. 

Edited by HachiRoku

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2 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Why won't DLC permits be sold? Are you seriously asking a developer to make you free DLC for ten years? Who is going to pay for the server upkeep? Who is going to pay for the developers food and housing? You must be kidding. Nothing would change. The DLC ships would still be broken and the game will be dead in a year. I cannot believe you seriously expect free content. 

I haven't said free content, DLC's won't be free of charge and if you're thinking of ingame crafting then I have to say - the reason why ppl would buy a DLC ship is because of the convenience, so basically make all ships into a shitload of a grind (like now) to get and ppl will buy the DLCs but still be able to get that one 1st rate they need for a PB through crafting, or if they are involved in multiple PBs then they can buy a DLC.. Another way to balance it is through the redeemable period, making it longer the larger the ship.

However the DLC train has passed. Devs can't renege on the ability to redeem already sold DLCs as they are literally sold as redeemable every 24 hours. I don't see how the introduction of more DLC ships will change that.

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Just now, Koveras said:

I haven't said free content, DLC's won't be free of charge and if you're thinking of ingame crafting then I have to say - the reason why ppl would buy a DLC ship is because of the convenience, so basically make all ships into a shitload of a grind (like now) to get and ppl will buy the DLCs but still be able to get that one 1st rate they need for a PB through crafting, or if they are involved in multiple PBs then they can buy a DLC.. Another way to balance it is through the redeemable period, making it longer the larger the ship.

However the DLC train has passed. Devs can't renege on the ability to redeem already sold DLCs as they are literally sold as redeemable every 24 hours. I don't see how the introduction of more DLC ships will change that.

I edited my reply to you to clarify. The whole point of this topic is that DLC ships that are not crafted are game breaking by design. Redeeming a NOTE will KILL the game. 

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1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

I edited my reply to you to clarify. The whole point of this topic is that DLC ships that are not crafted are game breaking by design. Redeeming a NOTE will KILL the game. 

You can't turn back the clock. Work with what you are given or don't work at all.

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Just now, Koveras said:

You can't turn back the clock. Work with what you are given or don't work at all.

Its alpha. I think by law they can change it. If the change is to fix the game I am sure many players will be ok and if there are some people that still don't want the change refunding the previous dlc might be the only solution. I am certain the overall health of the game will improve and a better game has more players to buy dlc. 

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This issue I have is I think the design inside the game is intentionally forcing players into using DLC ships.

Crazy permit wall.  Some of them are RNG which is absurd.  Good woods are more difficult to get.  All roads point towards DLC ships being the mainstay of the game, which I think is by design.  Making them craftable via permits just creates a product that you had to pay to get and yet still grind or expend significant in-game energy to craft.  Assuming you want to sail in anything other than oak and fir.

I decent solution to your idea would to have a "Base" DLC wood / trim type.  Lets say like oak + something.  You can either redeem 1 of those once a day OR you can redeem a permit to make a customized version.  Redeemable can only be that wood type and a base 3/5  

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1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

Its alpha. I think by law they can change it. If the change is to fix the game I am sure many players will be ok and if there are some people that still don't want the change refunding the previous dlc might be the only solution. I am certain the overall health of the game will improve and a better game has more players to buy dlc. 

DLC is not sold as EA, it is sold as is. There is no cave-at clause in the DLC and as such cannot be changed. They can change general mechanics (like the damagemodel that severely reduced the playability of the herc) but they cannot (unless they want to refund ppl that bought the DLC) change the ingame asset since it is sold as ingame asset.

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Just now, Koveras said:

DLC is not sold as EA, it is sold as is. There is no cave-at clause in the DLC and as such cannot be changed. They can change general mechanics (like the damagemodel that severely reduced the playability of the herc) but they cannot (unless they want to refund ppl that bought the DLC) change the ingame asset since it is sold as ingame asset.

I don't care really. All I know that the game is broken until it changes. If they do not accept it you will all sail the current and future DLC against eachother for the rest of you lives because the sandbox and DLC are IMPOSSIBLE to coexist together as they are. As I said. Its up to the devs if they want to fix it or not. I didn't say it was easy. I said it was necessary. 

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1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

I don't care really. All I know that the game is broken until it changes. If they do not accept it you will all sail the current and future DLC against eachother for the rest of you lives because the sandbox and DLC are IMPOSSIBLE to coexist together as they are. As I said. Its up to the devs if they want to fix it or not. I didn't say it was easy. I said it was necessary. 

I don't disagree, but that doesn't mean that it will be changed and asking devs to basically offer every player that has bought the DLCs a refund by changing the product contrary to the product description, days after one of the largest shitstorms that I have witnessed on forums, is a bit of a stretch. I'd wager every player banned would jump at the chance to get some of their money back and I don't see the game benefitting from that.

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Another solution could be to let players redeem normal ships like they can redeem DLC ships. Once you craft a ship, you unlocked this ship in the specific wood/trim in which you crafted it.

This would obviously break the entire economy as you only need to craft ships once, but like hachi said as long as there is such a difference between normal ships and dlc ships no matter how strong they are it is p2w and gamebreaking for me at least.

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1 minute ago, Koveras said:

I don't disagree, but that doesn't mean that it will be changed and asking devs to basically offer every player that has bought the DLCs a refund by changing the product contrary to the product description, days after one of the largest shitstorms that I have witnessed on forums, is a bit of a stretch. I'd wager every player banned would jump at the chance to get some of their money back and I don't see the game benefitting from that.

I don't know man. I really don't know.

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2 minutes ago, Father of Dragons said:

Another solution could be to let players redeem normal ships like they can redeem DLC ships. Once you craft a ship, you unlocked this ship in the specific wood/trim in which you crafted it.

This would obviously break the entire economy as you only need to craft ships once, but like hachi said as long as there is such a difference between normal ships and dlc ships no matter how strong they are it is p2w and gamebreaking for me at least.

compromises dude. I get what you mean but is this what we have to do? Really? I cannot accept that :( 

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20 minutes ago, Socialism said:


I decent solution to your idea would to have a "Base" DLC wood / trim type.  Lets say like oak + something.  You can either redeem 1 of those once a day OR you can redeem a permit to make a customized version.  Redeemable can only be that wood type and a base 3/5  

very interesting idea

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6 minutes ago, Father of Dragons said:

Another solution could be to let players redeem normal ships like they can redeem DLC ships. Once you craft a ship, you unlocked this ship in the specific wood/trim in which you crafted it.

This would obviously break the entire economy as you only need to craft ships once, but like hachi said as long as there is such a difference between normal ships and dlc ships no matter how strong they are it is p2w and gamebreaking for me at least.

That would req the ships ingame to become wickedly expensive (in order to promote the DLCs which I believe will be req to fund servers post release). I don't know if I want that.

4 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

compromises dude. I get what you mean but is this what we have to do? Really? I cannot accept that :( 

I don't have to like it, I just don't see any way forward but to embrace the reality of what is.

One thing that could clarify things is how important DLCs will be to fund the server(s) post release. If they plan on a surcharge monthly or whatever, or funding through DLCs that would matter a lot in terms of what leeway there is to change things.

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3 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

compromises dude. I get what you mean but is this what we have to do? Really? I cannot accept that :( 

Well I dont think DLCs will get changed into permits and so if they cant change them they have to change all other ships

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19 minutes ago, Socialism said:

This issue I have is I think the design inside the game is intentionally forcing players into using DLC ships.

Crazy permit wall.  Some of them are RNG which is absurd.  Good woods are more difficult to get.  All roads point towards DLC ships being the mainstay of the game, which I think is by design.  Making them craftable via permits just creates a product that you had to pay to get and yet still grind or expend significant in-game energy to craft.  Assuming you want to sail in anything other than oak and fir.

I decent solution to your idea would to have a "Base" DLC wood / trim type.  Lets say like oak + something.  You can either redeem 1 of those once a day OR you can redeem a permit to make a customized version.  Redeemable can only be that wood type and a base 3/5  

You are right but ingame craftable permits can be argued another time. Thing about your DLC option is that it is a compromise. Compromises = Bad game design. I know you know that so don't accept compromises. 

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23 minutes ago, Socialism said:

I decent solution to your idea would to have a "Base" DLC wood / trim type.  Lets say like oak + something.  You can either redeem 1 of those once a day OR you can redeem a permit to make a customized version.  Redeemable can only be that wood type and a base 3/5  

Except this can't be done with the existing DLCs.. The sales page states 'You will be able to request the frame and planking wood type when ordering a ship.

There's no restrictions imbedded.

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1 minute ago, Koveras said:

Except this can't be done with the existing DLCs.. The sales page states 'You will be able to request the frame and planking wood type when ordering a ship.

There's no restrictions imbedded.

you a law expert?

 

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I am sure developers are very well aware of what you are talking about. The choice was made deliberately.

20 Euro for prolific forger. Almost none complained, you can buy a game with that money but many bought it to support development.

Admiralty connections, none complained. Flags, painter 12.5 euro, none complained. Economy requiring alts, people just bought the game for x2, x5, x10 times. Was never a big problem.

However with DLC ships things went crazy. For the very obvious reasons you and many others already explained.

They simply don't want to put too much effort to design working economy and RvR. There is a huge possibility that it might not worth the effort and resources considering their previous development strategy. Naval battle enthusiasts already bought the game. The other gamers were diverted back by negative reviews, (it is quite a skill to able to turn your supporters to adversaries in such scale).

The statement made by developers that economy will remain "basic", just as an additional feature to acquire some ships blaze a trail to DLC ships and prove it is deliberate decision.

Working on a new game might bring much better profit than trying to fix something broken.

They had to rush the release and this is the way it will happen.

Recent purging of players is not a coincidence or anger out of passion.

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5 minutes ago, Father of Dragons said:

Well I dont think DLCs will get changed into permits and so if they cant change them they have to change all other ships

dont say that to me ever again. Have faith bra. If I have to I will get a kickstarter, raise all the money I need. Refund all DLC ships to people and start the selling DLC as craftable permits again. I will bitchslap Gabe Newell himself If I have to. 

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