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18 minutes ago, Socialism said:

If NA is hell bent to continue down this path of expensive ships that should be crafted "solo", but yet can be lost 10mins away from port, then we need to bring back duras to most ships.  Otherwise expensive ships that are easy to lose and labor intensive to craft....will simply sit in port and everyone will be on DLC ships.

But don't you see it becomes a self fulfilling prediction, because the Devs can then say "look the introduction of these new DLC ships has led to X number of battles" and give us some other meaningless statistics to back up the case.

Edit: a couple of quotes regarding statistics

“There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics.” 
 Benjamin Disraeli

“Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are pliable.” 
 Mark Twain

“99 percent of all statistics only tell 49 percent of the story.” 
 Ron DeLegge II, Gents with No Cents

Edited by Archaos
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32 minutes ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

Most of the time i think it's people selling the cargo of capped ai traders in the nearest port to not have to haul them around or because they are new, i've even bough WO that way.

Is this still going to be a thing at release? Someone told me that you won't find rare woods on AI traders soon? Don't know if this BS or not?

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6 hours ago, Barbarosa said:

Facts...

1. Yes, before DLC's nothing was happening. DLC and patrol zones saved us for boredom. And of course you don't need to reference your data to correct data sets as long as you own it. And I agree that I am stupid. Still it is not nice to keep reminding me about it with each logical statement you are making.

2. DLC's are not pay2win. Soon there will be nothing to win, that is why it only seems like "pay" to me. 

3. Why not save RvR with a lineship DLC's. It worked for rest, should work for rvr as well. I would love Lotion DLC.

image.jpeg.661822dd90ad3d67c96b1a0201c3ea19.jpeg

  

If I were you I would not be laughing because you have 0 evidence to back up your so called facts.

Fact 1:

Redeeming a DLC ship is less time consuming and costs less than normal ships. 

Fact 2:

Achieving the same items at a faster rate by paying for them is P2W.  

You cannot deny what I just said. Your facts have nothing but assumptions behind them. There is no evidence dlc ships have increased pvp. They are used more in pvp. The playerbases always has a spike when a new patch or content is released. There is no evidence that dlc ships will fix rvr. Anyway. Unless you can prove these 2 facts wrong the dlc model will remain P2W. There is a reason the devs have stupid arguments with many people on the forums and avoid discussing what I say about P2W. To this day Noone has ever debunked my 2 facts here. All I hear is convenience and compromise. hello kitty those things. 

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9 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

If I were you I would not be laughing because you have 0 evidence to back up your so called facts.

Fact 1:

Redeeming a DLC ship is less time consuming and costs less than normal ships. 

Fact 2:

Achieving the same items at a faster rate by paying for them is P2W.  

You cannot deny what I just said. Your facts have nothing but assumptions behind them. There is no evidence dlc ships have increased pvp. They are used more in pvp. The playerbases always has a spike when a new patch or content is released. There is no evidence that dlc ships will fix rvr. Anyway. Unless you can prove these 2 facts wrong the dlc model will remain P2W. There is a reason the devs have stupid arguments with many people on the forums and avoid discussing what I say about P2W. To this day Noone has ever debunked my 2 facts here. All I hear is convenience and compromise. hello kitty those things. 

i can't help but feel he was being sarcastic.

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6 hours ago, jodgi said:

I'm ok with you leaving the door ajar like that, I have no more desire to push.

7 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

In general yes but the reason I say this is because something can be p2w in one game and not in another because how they work. In naval action they are. 

 

6 hours ago, jodgi said:

Yes, that is true, but my main drive is to see convenience in the hands of other players who then become less timid. I will still run with crafted ships because, as my demonstration indicates, that will allow me to avoid having to grind for reals.

7 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

Thanks for proving my point. I have nothing to say to that. 

 

6 hours ago, jodgi said:

It's interesting that arena guys are among the most prominent OW defenders in a time where OW guys seem happy to deconstruct OW with random and arbitrary join timers. You can see them here and there calling for "3!" or "5!" minute timers as if it's impossible to calculate OW distance, speed, view range and find RoE that are the smallest compromise between OW and instances.

No, not a OS defender. A defender of game design overall. I prefer rainbow six to call of duty. This doesn't mean I should push call of duty to a more tacitcal game design. I see what call of duty is trying to be and will tell you what works and doesn't work. DLC would be no problem what so ever in a lobby based game if the ships were not op. There is no crafting in a lobby game. There are no ship logistics in a lobby based game. There is no need to go out and grind permits or reals.

 

6 hours ago, jodgi said:

I only know which side will run out of reals first.

This is round two or three with us fighting over prems and p2w, where are you going with this and why? I don't think I fully comprehend.

The side that doesnt need to spend reals because they have DLC ships will most likly not run out first... Proved my point again. 

I am saying the DLC model is p2w. You are denying it. If you agreed that it was p2w but you want it for your personal convenience I can agree to disagree. 

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2 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

i can't help but feel he was being sarcastic.

hard to tell on these forums sometimes. Staun is someone that is either very stupid or a massive troll. 

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1 hour ago, Socialism said:

To sum this up.... Cheap ships = more fights.  Expensive ships = less fights

If NA is hell bent to continue down this path of expensive ships that should be crafted "solo", but yet can be lost 10mins away from port, then we need to bring back duras to most ships.  Otherwise expensive ships that are easy to lose and labor intensive to craft....will simply sit in port and everyone will be on DLC ships. 

Maybe that's the overall intention because folks will have to buy the DLCs.  Either way, the game won't sustain a population for very long as we've witnessed since the UI / Crafting patch.

Because RVR is dead. Rvr is the only thing that keeps the game alive. I ask for ROE changes and many other changes to make the overall game better. The core of the game is RVR. When that is fixed the game will do fine for the most part. In order to fix it I believe ai grinding needs to go. It is tedious. I am not saying you are wrong or anything. I am just saying RVR is the most important thing. 

Edited by HachiRoku
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14 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

If I were you I would not be laughing because you have 0 evidence to back up your so called facts.

Fact 1:

Redeeming a DLC ship is less time consuming and costs less than normal ships. 

Fact 2:

Achieving the same items at a faster rate by paying for them is P2W.  

You cannot deny what I just said. Your facts have nothing but assumptions behind them. There is no evidence dlc ships have increased pvp. They are used more in pvp. The playerbases always has a spike when a new patch or content is released. There is no evidence that dlc ships will fix rvr. Anyway. Unless you can prove these 2 facts wrong the dlc model will remain P2W. There is a reason the devs have stupid arguments with many people on the forums and avoid discussing what I say about P2W. To this day Noone has ever debunked my 2 facts here. All I hear is convenience and compromise. hello kitty those things. 

It was sarcasm... :(

DLS are needed to build a nice monument and graveyard for the game..

 

 

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Just now, Barbarosa said:

It was sarcasm... :(

DLS are needed to build a nice monument and graveyard for the game..

 

 

I am sorry mate.... there are so many idiots on the forums sometimes that its hard to tell. I would like to ask you to stop with it though this matter is extremely important to me. I want DLC ships I want 100 DLC ships. If they are not op and fit into the game I don't care if 20 sols are added. The devs have given us 1000% more content than was promised and it is obvious they need to make DLC. They cannot continue to give us free ships even though the game is alpha. Its clear to some of my ideas are less profitable for them but I really do not want the game to go down this road. Herc and requin are already sold. We need to keep things serious before another mistake is made that cannot be reverted. 

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On 3/25/2019 at 11:15 AM, Vernon Merrill said:

I *THINK* its this....  but I may be wrong....  1783

Fotografi av Chapmans originalritning från krigsarkivets samlingar.

CNcsDg7.jpg

oe5p3wz.png

Rättvisan (1783) Swedish 62 gun Third Rate

Improved Wasa Class

Designer: Fredrik Chapman

Measurements

Total Length: 167 (Swedish foot) (49.6m)

Width: 45’ 9” (Swedish foot) (13.59m)

Depth of Hold: 19’ 6” (Swedish foot)

Draught: 19’6 (Swedish foot) (5.79m)

Armament

Peacetime:

26 x 24lb (Swedish pound) (10.2 kg each)

28 x 18lb (Swedish pound) (7.65 kg each)

8 x 6lb (Swedish pound) (2.55 kg each)

Total Broadside: 588 lb (Swedish pound) (249.9 kg)

Wartime:

26 x 36lb (Swedish pound)

28 x 24lb (Swedish pound) (10.2 kg each)

8 x 6lb (Swedish pound) (2.55 kg each)

Total Broadside: 828 lb (Swedish pound) (351.9 kg)

 

any in game pictures @admin

62/64-gun Rattvisan 1783 was taken by Russians in 1790.

Edited by Pirate78
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1 hour ago, Socialism said:

To sum this up.... Cheap ships = more fights.  Expensive ships = less fights

This can be said over and over and over again.

Don't know how often to stress this, the more restrictive the procurement of goods, the less action there will be. Nobody wants to lose ships, after spending hours and hours gathering resources to craft them.

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36 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

We need to keep things serious before another mistake is made that cannot be reverted.

That is how you get banned. You are intelligent enough to understand that they are "done" with the game.

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4 minutes ago, Hawkwood said:

This can be said over and over and over again.

Don't know how often to stress this, the more restrictive the procurement of goods, the less action there will be. Nobody wants to lose ships, after spending hours and hours gathering resources to craft them.

more fights = better fights?

i rather have less but more thrilling ones

free stuff offers no thrill 

Edited by z4ys
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I think the most problematic thing done lately is the ship permits and limiting the rare woods to harcore extent.

I used to attack npc tbrids and tsnows, they used to have dubloons or resources inside the hold. The wood was generaly 500 to 750 tons. After recent patch when I looted npc traders, I only saw a fixed amount of 125 wood or 3-4 trading product. So 125 white oak is funny compared to 750.

Still can not figure out why 5th rate ships (pvp workhorse) and below are tied to rng permits.

First they lowered crafting costs of 5th rate and below, that was the best move ever ! That meant more pvp for sure !, more ship crafting, more guns, resources and more economy

So there was the economic wipe, all economy halted and crafting also. Now we have money again but economy and crafting could not recover, due to very hard to reach rare woods and rng permits.

I always thought bigger ships need to be expansive, costly, harder to acquire, but I could not imagine this happening to all ships !

What is the benefit aside from forcing the people to buy DLC ships ?

I tell you what dear developer team;

Remove RNG permits for 5th rate and below, increase the rare woods on traders a bit. Establish real ship bidding at capitals and freetowns and list all the ships on sale. I have 8 outposts, I have lots of buildings, shipyards, docks, warehouses, farms, mines, I have millions of reals in bank or chest, I am a rich man. So let me afford some workers, so they will do bidding for me at my capital and freetowns for ships and goods.

Instead you can give us 8 free outpost slot only for freetowns and our original 8 outpost which are not freetowns, so we can increase PVP/PVE/Crafting/Economy, easy to reach most content. What is the harm ? aside from harming the ALTS which are also killing this game aside from you earning some more money, but it is poison !

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4 minutes ago, z4ys said:

more fights = better fights?

i rather have less but more thrilling ones

free stuff offers no thrill 

What is your point ? 

You only wanna fight HachiRoku, or Palantinose :) or Moscalb ?

Because there will be no more of them, if this attitude keeps going. You will rarely see good pvp guys raising in game.

I do not wanna fight Moscal and Drone over and over, I want some random fights, which is the most important thing, experience gained by both sides which leads to raise better pvpers. 

And to let it happen you NEED MORE FIGHTS, more fights leeds to better fights when time comes.  So how do you make more fights to happen ? Answer is obvious, reduce the fear to lose a ship at least up to and including 5th rate.

"i rather have less but more thrilling ones" you need the Naval Action Legends with skill based matchmaker, or I can give you names of 10 good pvp players, so you can pm them and have your thrilling battles in NA.

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14 minutes ago, z4ys said:

more fights = better fights?

i rather have less but more thrilling ones

free stuff offers no thrill 

DLC ships are "free stuff". You have those.

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2 minutes ago, Barbarosa said:

That is how you get banned. You are intelligent enough to understand that they are "done" with the game.

I have said very controversial things over the period of this game development. As long as it is objective I highly doubt if I will get banned. Most members that have 1000+ posts keep on pushing the devs with nonsensical posts just to have an argument. I am not surprised they get banned. You can say what ever you want about the game. You can call mechanics shit if you believe them to be so. As long as you give a good reason for it. I say something is p2w and it is controversial for sure. I give great reasons for it. Your sarcasm is something that can get you banned for example. This is a development thread and sarcasm is trolling. If you were banned for it I would understand. If the devs were done with the game they would simply release it. There is nothing that prevents them from doing it. If they were done with the game the would have released it 4 years ago. They have given us years of work for free. You need to give credit were it is due and be critical of things that need critic. Naval action has no replacement. If this game doesn't work we will all pay the price for it. I will not play dog shit like atlas. I will only settle for a proper sailing game like this and will keep pushing for mechanics I personally believe to be better. I can be wrong but thats what the rest of you are here for. To tell me when I am :)  

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12 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Naval action has no replacement. If this game doesn't work we will all pay the price for it. I will not play dog shit like atlas. I will only settle for a proper sailing game like this and will keep pushing for mechanics I personally believe to be better.

You are right, that is why I am here.

Moderation here matches their game development.

Month ago they were very enthusiastically claiming that the patrol zones are great asset for pvp. They were backing it up with their data ect. In weeks all of them except shallows turned to fishing grounds. Their eyes were focused on shallow data because of DLC sale success. I presume we will see 2 games inside another with release or after release; former being (more lucrative) lobby style patrol zone events with DLC ships for solo/casual players and later being RvR gameplay for few clans. They statement about keeping economy basic tells a lot.

Honest question. Do you see yourself playing such a game in future?

Yet, I wish I am wrong.

 

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2 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

The side that doesnt need to spend reals because they have DLC ships will most likly not run out first... Proved my point again.

Awwww... And I sat down and did all those numbers and you weren't even paying attention! T_T

2 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

I am saying the DLC model is p2w. You are denying it.

My thinking is not as binary as yours. If Endy was DLC it would be clear cut P2W.

You're avoiding my insurance numbers because it doesn't fit your narrative.

I'm mostly aboard the other points in your post, good stuff!

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1 hour ago, Aerospace said:

I think the most problematic thing done lately is the ship permits and limiting the rare woods to harcore extent.

I used to attack npc tbrids and tsnows, they used to have dubloons or resources inside the hold. The wood was generaly 500 to 750 tons. After recent patch when I looted npc traders, I only saw a fixed amount of 125 wood or 3-4 trading product. So 125 white oak is funny compared to 750.

Still can not figure out why 5th rate ships (pvp workhorse) and below are tied to rng permits.

First they lowered crafting costs of 5th rate and below, that was the best move ever ! That meant more pvp for sure !, more ship crafting, more guns, resources and more economy

So there was the economic wipe, all economy halted and crafting also. Now we have money again but economy and crafting could not recover, due to very hard to reach rare woods and rng permits.

I always thought bigger ships need to be expansive, costly, harder to acquire, but I could not imagine this happening to all ships !

What is the benefit aside from forcing the people to buy DLC ships ?

I tell you what dear developer team;

Remove RNG permits for 5th rate and below, increase the rare woods on traders a bit. Establish real ship bidding at capitals and freetowns and list all the ships on sale. I have 8 outposts, I have lots of buildings, shipyards, docks, warehouses, farms, mines, I have millions of reals in bank or chest, I am a rich man. So let me afford some workers, so they will do bidding for me at my capital and freetowns for ships and goods.

Instead you can give us 8 free outpost slot only for freetowns and our original 8 outpost which are not freetowns, so we can increase PVP/PVE/Crafting/Economy, easy to reach most content. What is the harm ? aside from harming the ALTS which are also killing this game aside from you earning some more money, but it is poison !

 

Making 5th rate frigates, light frigates and some heavier frigates only be craftable through permits was a mistake! If the devs didn't make it that way, i'm pretty sure frigates would completely take over the open world, because they are cost-friendly and doesn't take that long to craft, making them viable to grind and craft and put them out on the waters for pvp, hence making more and more fights accessible to everybody. Right now, people are still going for the big boys because they will overpower anything, unless it's outnumbered or outgunned, but SOLs now are way more harder to craft.

Making frigates more easily obtainable would take the huge load that the devs placed upon the community, making everything 100 times more difficult. If you could craft a L'Hermione, Belle Poule, Endymion, Essex, Surprise, Rennomeé more easily, people would definetly go down that path, making pvp more viable and not a completely grind/farming game.

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1 minute ago, jodgi said:

Awwww... And I sat down and did all those numbers and you weren't even paying attention! T_T

My thinking is not as binary as yours. If Endy was DLC it would be clear cut P2W.

You're avoiding my insurance numbers because it doesn't fit your narrative.

I'm mostly aboard the other points in your post, good stuff!

thats actually a good point and I will always admit being wrong about the insurance. I still have Crafting time, sailing time of resources and the grind of permits. I mean the real grind itself is not the hard part about ship building. What makes the endy pay2win and the upcoming 5th rates not? 

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26 minutes ago, Barbarosa said:

Honest question. Do you see yourself playing such a game in future?

 

No. 

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6 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

What makes the endy pay2win and the upcoming 5th rates not?

Because it's a top dog: 24 pounders and speed. You can't counter it with anything craftable. Niag would be p2w too (Nassau).

Hermie can easily be beaten with a ship costing 18k (with a 15k return on insurance). I will buy all the things, but when they're released I'll go fight them in better ships that will cost me less should I lose and sink.

You're right about me being selfish. When I saw what eco did to a game I frantically started thinking "How will I be able to deal with this!?". It's all about me and my fun; I admit it.

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20 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Because it's a top dog: 24 pounders and speed. You can't counter it with anything craftable. Niag would be p2w too (Nassau).

Hermie can easily be beaten with a ship costing 18k (with a 15k return on insurance). I will buy all the things, but when they're released I'll go fight them in better ships that will cost me less should I lose and sink.

You're right about me being selfish. When I saw what eco did to a game I frantically started thinking "How will I be able to deal with this!?". It's all about me and my fun; I admit it.

Ship stats are not what make them p2w in this case. I never even bothered with that argument simply because there is nothing to argue about. Certain ships are better than others. If the stats exceed those of their real life counterparts then we have a problem. Some people dislike the fact the trinco is no match more for an endymion because of guns. Its real so I am happy. Endymion was historically a better sailor and is 25% larger. There is no comparison between the two of them. Poods make the trinco op atm tbf. I am just as lazy as you and that is a real fact. That doesn't mean the overall game design should be adjusted for lazy players. You reap what you sow and players that go out and trade, build ships and have all the nice things deserve to have the best ships. They do the work for it. They should not be punished for anyones convenience. I will always stand by that point no matter what. 

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1 hour ago, jodgi said:

You're avoiding my insurance numbers because it doesn't fit your narrative.

I think I have proved that your insurance figures only work when you take out things like LH and you leave your computer on overnight with your keyboard wedged to prevent logout so you can afk fish. Any slight difference a non DLC player may get due to insurance is more than off set by DLC players being able to redeem and insta sell their ship to get doubloons (may not be much now with just Herc and LRQ, but with 3 more DLC's and more on the way it will be a big income stream).

Even Admin couldnt respond after he tried to make out I was using bogus figures and I proved I was using what was in game. At best insurance covers the cost of most of the ship materials and nothing more, so please stop using this as an argument.

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