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52 minutes ago, manuva85 said:

Do you remember times of free 3rd rates sailing in ow just waiting to be capped? And how good pvp with OTHER ships was bcs there was that free alternative, so you could do more risky  fights freely? Yeah i do. 

It was taken from all players, now only avaiable to players that pay extra.

NOT FAIR AT ALL.

personally I think that was for other reasons. In our clan we had to do it because we could not craft bellonas fast enough. To few crafters to much demand. 

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55 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Who the hell sails with 4 Herc in fleet....  you deserve to have them all sunk if that is the case...

 

You do not have any dlc ships do you ?

You send your dlc ship to fleet but on the docks only ! so you can redeem one more,repeat it up to 4 ships. So you can have 4 dlc ships + 1 still redemeeble ready at any time.

So your docks will have 4 Hercules to be used in let's say Nassau Patrol, and anytime you lose one of them, you can redeem one more on the same day, so you can use up to 5 Hercules in Nassau patrol. So you can do it for free with best woods. 

and you did not know this :) 

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6 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Even not considering the resources it is plain and simple P2W model when you can pay money and get to the same goal(a ship) faster. I am sorry brother but there is no debate there. You will never be able to justify it even if the ships add 1000% more pvp. I stand by boycotting all dlcs that are against the the soul of this game. Admin already said the DLC ships are a major part of pvp and that is only 2 ships. It will get worse. I want GLs to even add ship of the line dlcs and whatever they want to do in the future but no like this. If the trinco was made a dlc ship tomorrow and removed from crafting I would still persist. I guess I should sail the indefatigable a bit more. Suits me 😛

Even if we could redeem permits and had to craft the ship they model would still be p2w considering other permits in game require ingame to to get them. Its bad but acceptable because sandbox games have issues with adding dlcs in general. 

Ok, you win. There can be no debate when you reserve the right to define the baseline truth and sit on the only possible interpretation of said truths in relation to everything. 

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10 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Ok, you win. There can be no debate when you reserve the right to define the baseline truth and sit on the only possible interpretation of said truths in relation to everything. 

A Fact cannot be combated with reasoning, for it is logic itself. Truth is something which depends on a person's perspective. Its quite odd you said that that way because I was just reading about Facts vs Truth 3 days ago. 

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4 hours ago, Salty Sails said:

Just wondering in what ship can you sink a LRQ with proper ugprades and decent captain ?

LAS taylor? Never heard of him...

Do you have a fight against better players? With good woods, and best upgrades?

Bad players are still bad players.  Hell I demasted a Herc with a Trader Brig one time just out side Little Harbor area.  If he didn't have two AI sinking my other two trade ships like a dick, I would prob of stayed and camped him until I sunk him.  Just cause some one is in a DLC ship does not make them a great player.  Though I think he had no clue who I was at it was an alt of mine and not a name seen by many even those that sail with me.   I'm an average player in my books and I beaten LRQ's with none same sailing profiles.  You snap that front mast before they can run and they are sitting ducks in water.   That is exactly what I did with that herc when he was chasing me.  Not every one runs Pirate on there LRQ's either, in fact i don't run it on any of mine. I run French Rig instead cause I know how weak that front mast is.   Not every one makes there ships to run away from every fight.  I have some that are Cedar/Teak you won't chatch unless your of a softer word, but those are for solo trade ship hunting (board fit too) and others are just Teak/Wo for battle other ships (the guys with carros).  If you are smart and you face some one with carros with longs you can easily control that fight.  This is all not the point of this post anyway so a bit off topic, we beaten the LRQ thing to death so need to move on.  I just want to see a refit of it that is more trader than raider.....

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2 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

A Fact cannot be combated with reasoning, for it is logic itself. Truth is something which depends on a person's perspective. Its quite odd you said that that way because I was just reading about Facts vs Truth 3 days ago. 

Did the book instruct you to equate Hachi's truth with objective and logical facts?

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1 hour ago, manuva85 said:

Do you remember times of free 3rd rates sailing in ow just waiting to be capped? And how good pvp with OTHER ships was bcs there was that free alternative, so you could do more risky  fights freely? Yeah i do. 

It was taken from all players, now only avaiable to players that pay extra.

NOT FAIR AT ALL.

i agree with this, imo they should have never removed the bug where you could cap lineships because they were crew space anyway and would only be good for rageboarding and fireships in port battles, then we can talk about the OW battles would only consist of lineships, but then again we could tune the base speed and manouverability on them and make them suffer from upwind sailing aswell as tacking wouldnt be that easy

Edited by Sveteran
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1 hour ago, jodgi said:

I'm looking at it too, not done yet (for Essex).

I'm sure buying stuff breaks the bank, player or NPC. I disregard LH as I always have more LH than I ever need (solo crafting for own use). Want to disregard doub and permit "cost" as those things are put in place for other reasons than eco.

We agree that permit and doub ships with rare woods wouldn't make you break even with insurance, not even close.

I have redone calculation for Niagara using material extraction costs and not counting LH or permit costs and it still works out at 5481 Reals to build and you only get back 4432, so you are still short before you start to count cannons.

When you throw in permit cost, cannons, rare woods cost and LH you make a big loss as compared to someone who can redeem a rare wood ship daily and that does not even take into account the time to gather the materials to your crafting port and then you have your single tow/day (also add the cost of the tow) to where you want it, while the DLC player can redeem his ship where he needs it.

Edit: in case you have not done it yet an Essex works out at 19282 for Oak/Oak not counting LH, permits, guns etc.

Edited by Archaos
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44 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I have redone calculation for Niagara using material extraction costs and not counting LH or permit costs and it still works out at 5481 Reals to build and you only get back 4432, so you are still short before you start to count cannons.

When you throw in permit cost, cannons, rare woods cost and LH you make a big loss as compared to someone who can redeem a rare wood ship daily and that does not even take into account the time to gather the materials to your crafting port and then you have your single tow/day (also add the cost of the tow) to where you want it, while the DLC player can redeem his ship where he needs it.

Edit: in case you have not done it yet an Essex works out at 19282 for Oak/Oak not counting LH, permits, guns etc.

 

 

19282 for an oak/oak Essex  thats kinda crazy, and without permits lol  :D .

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1 hour ago, Sveteran said:

i agree with this, imo they should have never removed the bug where you could cap lineships because they were crew space anyway and would only be good for rageboarding and fireships in port battles, then we can talk about the OW battles would only consist of lineships, but then again we could tune the base speed and manouverability on them and make them suffer from upwind sailing aswell as tacking wouldnt be that easy

Atleast when the ships were aplenty there were a meaningfull OW.. Now it's just another word for nothing left to play.

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57 minutes ago, Dibbler said:

 

 

19282 for an oak/oak Essex  thats kinda crazy, and without permits lol  :D .

Well thats what it works out as, the only thing that can be reduced from that is the provisions that you can get for free by catching fish as you sail round and converting them to provisions, but I doubt many PvP players do that.

The examples I have given if you made your own provisions rather than farmed them would be

Niagara 3156 Reals, which is less than the insurance but I am sure still not enough to cover crafted cannons.

Essex 9832 Reals, but I do not know what the insurance pays on an essex.

If I get time tomorrow I will work out the cost of a few more.

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2 hours ago, Aerospace said:

You do not have any dlc ships do you ?

You send your dlc ship to fleet but on the docks only ! so you can redeem one more,repeat it up to 4 ships. So you can have 4 dlc ships + 1 still redemeeble ready at any time.

So your docks will have 4 Hercules to be used in let's say Nassau Patrol, and anytime you lose one of them, you can redeem one more on the same day, so you can use up to 5 Hercules in Nassau patrol. So you can do it for free with best woods. 

and you did not know this :) 

I certainly hope @admin realize this and set an actual 24hr timer. I do not think the ship DLCs are intended to be exploited this way.

About premium consumable vessels.
Premium ships cannot be captured by players or traded. You can request this vessel from the admiralty once a day as long as you dont have the same vessel already in your docks. You will be able to request the frame and planking wood type when ordering a ship. Admiralty requests for this ship will be completed instantly.
DLC will appear in your redeemable list after you dock to any port.

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9 hours ago, admin said:

Players who do not want to haul chose DLC ships VS chose not to play at all.

  • Choosing DLC ships keeps some crafting (need repairs, need guns, need mods). DLC ships also kill ships sometimes (which also require crafting of repairs, mods, and sometimes even ships). 
  • Choosing not to play removes ALL that demand. And removes crafted ship destruction.
    During the last data check on DLC vs normal ships 11000 battles were generated with DLC ships and 3000 DLC ships sank (before the damage model change they had the worst survivability, worser than a brig). Why? Because people love action and losing ships sometimes is part of it.

Higher class ships will further increase the demand for consumables and guns and will sink MORE crafted ships to replace them. And the profession does not change really, as people will still want niagara, surprises, indefatigables and heavy lineships. + more consumables will be needed due to more battles happening.

Now.. what he is offering by "nailing it"? His proposal is to remove 11000 battles and 3000 pvp kills for others. or to not add MORE battles. Because DLC ship buyers will then chose to NOT PLAY at all.  

 

@admindo you even remember times @manuva85is talking about here?

3 hours ago, manuva85 said:

Do you remember times of free 3rd rates sailing in ow just waiting to be capped? And how good pvp with OTHER ships was bcs there was that free alternative, so you could do more risky  fights freely? Yeah i do. 

It was taken from all players, now only avaiable to players that pay extra.

NOT FAIR AT ALL.

Do you remember why option to capture AI 3rd rate was removed from the game? Do you remember defence of Jeremie by SLRN? Do you know that a group of crappy ships without upgrades by focusing fire can sink a ship made from best wood and with best mods? Now you are giving players free ships every day to sink ships that are crafted by players wasting their time to gather resources, playing your content and counting on RNG permit drops. The higher rate your free ships sunk the higher the cost and time loss is for loosing player. How do you think they are still going to play your content and count on a RNG chance to get their dream ship only to loose it against a ship (or rather a group of ships) that didnt require other player any time and effort in game?

We had previously 2 low rate ships but they already messed up the game badly (1 overgunned, 1 overcrewed and both with uber speed). This time you plan to add 5th and 4th rate (I'm already scared thinking what special stuff they will get) to the game so all the problems we had in shallows (and reinforcement areas) are going to move to deep water PB's. DLC's are going to mightily influence screening and port battle itself. Players will be able to throw no cost ships at even best defended town only to chew crafted ships one by one up until the point of defending clan losing all their resources. How is that going to be fun? You care of 11000 battles or good battles and good game content? 

@adminwhy not just remove crafting, all the resources, missions and give people option to redeem ships they want like Admiral Nelson redeemed his Victory from British Admiralty? Then you will have 666 666 battles where everybody will be happy loosing stuff they dont care for. Everybody then will choose to PLAY and not just DLC buyers. 

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So I am fine with everything mentioned. Little disappointed its not a map wipe though. Two things I would suggest though @admin please make sure that there are a much larger percentage of craftable ships availible in comparision to the amount of dlc ships there are availible to purchase. Like there should be 1 dlc ship to ever 5 ships close to its class. Maybe even larger ratios. Also please tell me you guys are going to change up port battles in some manner. Like add variations to the battle objectives or something. Kind of bored doing the same thing over and over again and also to see cowardice rewarded when players choose to kite and run away from fighting as a tactic to win.

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1 hour ago, Archaos said:

Well thats what it works out as, the only thing that can be reduced from that is the provisions that you can get for free by catching fish as you sail round and converting them to provisions, but I doubt many PvP players do that.

The examples I have given if you made your own provisions rather than farmed them would be

Niagara 3156 Reals, which is less than the insurance but I am sure still not enough to cover crafted cannons.

Essex 9832 Reals, but I do not know what the insurance pays on an essex.

If I get time tomorrow I will work out the cost of a few more.

Just thought I toss in here my US United stats gave me something like 55,651 insurance for a Cedar/Teak ship.   I been wondering when some one will make a cost spread sheet for crafting, but with all the changes and well lack of active crafters it seem to be something no one is wanting to work up.

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7 hours ago, jodgi said:

Did the book instruct you to equate Hachi's truth with objective and logical facts?

I don't want to go into this discussion again but it is a simple fact that getting the Same items at a faster rate by paying for them is P2W. It's how p2w works. I don't care that it's convenient for some because it's not convenient for everyone else. You cannot justify it. This is not an oppinion of mine but a simple fact. Google P2W. 

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15 hours ago, Sveteran said:

checked https://na-map.netlify.com/ connie has 0.3 kn more, higher acceleration and better upwind sailing profile, bellona also have a bigger square sails which pushes it more backwards when tacking and of course it depends on the skill of the captains on the ships, a teak teak connie can be deadly fast catching most frigates :)

Still i belive connie needs her base speed increased by 0.40kn 

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16 hours ago, admin said:

[...]

As a result he is mistaken. Because he thinks DLC owners will still play and happily haul.  
Players who do not want to haul chose DLC ships VS chose not to play at all.

  • Choosing DLC ships keeps some crafting (need repairs, need guns, need mods). DLC ships also kill ships sometimes (which also require crafting of repairs, mods, and sometimes even ships). 
  • Choosing not to play removes ALL that demand. And removes crafted ship destruction.
    During the last data check on DLC vs normal ships 11000 battles were generated with DLC ships and 3000 DLC ships sank (before the damage model change they had the worst survivability, worser than a brig). Why? Because people love action and losing ships sometimes is part of it.

Higher class ships will further increase the demand for consumables and guns and will sink MORE crafted ships to replace them. And the profession does not change really, as people will still want niagara, surprises, indefatigables and heavy lineships. + more consumables will be needed due to more battles happening.

Now.. what he is offering by "nailing it"? His proposal is to remove 11000 battles and 3000 pvp kills for others. or to not add MORE battles. Because DLC ship buyers will then chose to NOT PLAY at all.  

I am a little amazed by what I read here. I mean I get the logic, the way you put it makes perfect sense. It encourages battles, etc... But don't you think there's something wrong when players are reticent in risking their hard earned ships in a battle in the first place and would then rather use their daily DLC one instead?

I don't know... What you wrote there might make sense for some, but to me it looks like an excuse for a poorly balanced risk/reward mechanism. And if you really mean what you said, that DLC Ships are there to encourage fighting and risky behaviors because the real advantage of the DLC is to have one free ship a day, and not to give exclusivity on said ship, then you should make this happen : 

16 hours ago, El Patron said:

We need every ship as a dlc and craftable. Guys without enough time can buy the dlcs  the others can craft the ships.  Everybody is happy

 

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9 hours ago, Archaos said:

Edit: in case you have not done it yet an Essex works out at 19282 for Oak/Oak not counting LH, permits, guns etc.

Yesterday I double checked all the extraction cost, double checked the blueprint, clicked out an oak/oak Essex and long guns for it.

I afk fish provisions so I disregard the cost of those and I don't factor in LH as a part of cost.

The Essex cost me 9822 reals, the 40 guns cost me 7760 reals; Total 17582 reals.

I then went out to sink the poor thing, had to dodge an extremely bloodthirsty brit big ship gank squad swarming DA-NO waters (Yes, I'd rather feed my Essex to a bot than to give the dreadfleet anything). The Essex sank quickly to a Polish Wasa and I was sent to port with 15162 reals as insurance payout.

So the whole loss experience set me back 2420 reals. My net loss was equivalent to the cost of the twelve weatherdeck guns.

Let's pretend the Essex is a premium ship. I click it out and craft guns for it. Cost of guns is still 7760 reals. If I lose my imaginary premium Essex I get sent to port with nothing while the cost of the guns goes to the bottom with the free ship. Net loss without reps and mod extras would be 7760 reals.

Semi related: In tortue auction right now you can pick up a blue Essex at 60k reals or shop up to a blue Belle Poule going for 300k. So, good luck if you decide to immerse yourself into the player driven eco madness.

My convenient calculations get more complicated if we are to consider Rättvisan vs. crafted Aga or Wasa. You have to part with almost 3k doubs for those and be the lucky owner of a permit for the Wasa.

I'll let the reader decide in spite of @HachiRoku's complete monopoly of the truth, facts and the definition of the term "P2W". 

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54 minutes ago, Zlatkowar said:

I am a little amazed by what I read here. I mean I get the logic, the way you put it makes perfect sense. It encourages battles, etc... But don't you think there's something wrong when players are reticent in risking their hard earned ships in a battle in the first place and would then rather use their daily DLC one instead?

I don't know... What you wrote there might make sense for some, but to me it looks like an excuse for a poorly balanced risk/reward mechanism. And if you really mean what you said, that DLC Ships are there to encourage fighting and risky behaviors because the real advantage of the DLC is to have one free ship a day, and not to give exclusivity on said ship, then you should make this happen : 

 

It sometimes seems that what annoys the most those who don’t like ship DLCs is the simple fact that players can have access to ship(s) (and to the game) without having to spend time in game  (or is it ‘waste’ for them ?) to get some by crafting or buying in-game ones.

So they look for all the means to ‘nerf’ these DLCs / limit buyers’ rights : the cooldown must be longer, their woods must be only common, their rate must be the lowest possible, you shouldn’t be able to buy ships but only permits, DLC ships shouldn’t have access to PB, etc.

Your idea is a variant : what some buy should be free for others. Strange marketing principle btw : it doesn’t make someone really want to buy. Moreover, I guess the crafted L’Hermione (or whatever) should also be better than the DLC version.

As long as ship DLCs are not OP (they are not), I think players should be able to buy original designs/ships that players who don’t buy won’t get. That’s the purely ‘cosmetic’ part of the purchase.

As for the cooldown, it is a matter of balance, knowing that a player with one account who don’t have much time to play NA should always be able to play (ie have at least one available (nice) DLC ship to fight).

You must attract ppl and not tell them « come and buy this DLC fir/fir basic cutter for 100 euros you’ll be able to redeem every 6 months ».

More ship DLCs, more players, more fights.

🙂

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That fact that someone is redeeming a ship means not that he's going to win the next fight. It means only that he has indeed a ship and is able to fight, which is per se not a bad starting point, isn't it?

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9 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Yesterday I double checked all the extraction cost, double checked the blueprint, clicked out an oak/oak Essex and long guns for it.

I afk fish provisions so I disregard the cost of those and I don't factor in LH as a part of cost.

The Essex cost me 9822 reals, the 40 guns cost me 7760 reals; Total 17582 reals.

I then went out to sink the poor thing, had to dodge an extremely bloodthirsty brit big ship gank squad swarming DA-NO waters (Yes, I'd rather feed my Essex to a bot than to give the dreadfleet anything). The Essex sank quickly to a Polish Wasa and I was sent to port with 15162 reals as insurance payout.

So the whole loss experience set me back 2420 reals. My net loss was equivalent to the cost of the twelve weatherdeck guns.

Let's pretend the Essex is a premium ship. I click it out and craft guns for it. Cost of guns is still 7760 reals. If I lose my imaginary premium Essex I get sent to port with nothing while the cost of the guns goes to the bottom with the free ship. Net loss without reps and mod extras would be 7760 reals.

Semi related: In tortue auction right now you can pick up a blue Essex at 60k reals or shop up to a blue Belle Poule going for 300k. So, good luck if you decide to immerse yourself into the player driven eco madness.

My convenient calculations get more complicated if we are to consider Rättvisan vs. crafted Aga or Wasa. You have to part with almost 3k doubs for those and be the lucky owner of a permit for the Wasa.

I'll let the reader decide in spite of @HachiRoku's complete monopoly of the truth, facts and the definition of the term "P2W". 

 If you craft a crap ship, and want to sink, your calculation is obsolete. Your formula didn´t include the TIME and EFFORT needed to earn the money, which is needed to obtain all the resources and upgrades. To craft Aggy or Wasa you need  much more money, woods, iron, coal etc. Means again, you need more TIME to sail around, gathering those, finding those.

If i can create a ship, out of nothing,( premium) and don´t have to spend much TIME finding resources, i have an advantage over those which don´t have premium ships.

P2W.

 

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18 hours ago, admin said:

As a result he is mistaken. Because he thinks DLC owners will still play and happily haul.  
Players who do not want to haul chose DLC ships VS chose not to play at all.

I joined this game first to craft and trade, then I switched to PvP (which is a majority of my time).

Before DLC's I was crafting ships for myself and others. I bought DLC's and in times when they were P2W, I was halting crafting, sailing DLC ships instead.

Now Herc or Requin are not P2W, as they were significantly nerfed. Still, you should look at concerns of people. It's a very valid argument that a new powerful DLC ship may become meta and thus P2W, just like Wasa, Herc and Requin had their META moments (I put Wasa here deliberately, as it doesn't really matter if a ship is a DLC or not, unless it's a meta for RvR as well).

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9 hours ago, van der Decken said:
11 hours ago, Aerospace said:

You do not have any dlc ships do you ?

You send your dlc ship to fleet but on the docks only ! so you can redeem one more,repeat it up to 4 ships. So you can have 4 dlc ships + 1 still redemeeble ready at any time.

So your docks will have 4 Hercules to be used in let's say Nassau Patrol, and anytime you lose one of them, you can redeem one more on the same day, so you can use up to 5 Hercules in Nassau patrol. So you can do it for free with best woods. 

and you did not know this :) 

I certainly hope @admin realize this and set an actual 24hr timer. I do not think the ship DLCs are intended to be exploited this way.

The 24h timer is still there. The have the posibility of five Hercs at the ready you need to spend 4 days, each day putting all Hercs in fleet, then redeeming the new one. On the fifth day your 24h counter will be over and if you have not lost any hercs by then you virtually have 5.

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we have already an important advantage of crafted ships over redeemable ships. Reedeemables never have 5/5.

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