UGG Fatal Flaw Discovered:No Historical Accuracy - Film at Eleven!

[RichardMcCor]

Well, i'm still looking forward to the next patch and all the fun it will bring.

[Panzeh]

Seems like Reed here wants an entirely different game.

 

Honestly, having the entirety of Gettysburg with every unit involved at your command would probably be a total mess.  There was a scenario like that in Sid Meier's Gettysburg! but it was a mess to try to keep track of all those regiments.  There's a limited amount of attention and time available to a game that purports to be good in MP, and good in chunks smaller than whole evenings.

 

Also, LOL at the idea that wargames from the 70s and 60s have much to offer.  I've seen a lot of them, and they're total dreck.  Even the 80s is full of crap.  Modern wargames, CDGs, hex and counter wargames, all of them are so much better designed.  Guns of Gettysburg is probably the most interesting treatment of the battle i've ever seen in a wargame.

[David Fair]

Hi Randall,

 

The problems you are addressing are great - but if you look at the response from the admin "...historical games are a lot harder to balance due to historical factors..." it demonstrates that the UGG team's vision is fundamentally flawed.

 

There is a vibrant opportunity to put a game together that has enough historical content to be embraced by the gaming community.  The company that gets this nexus correct is going to have smashing success in the market.  

 

The trouble is that the design team does not see this as a true statement.  Statements like, "...grognards don't want to see those compromises." confirms that the UGG design team does not have the DNA and is not interested in getting the history designed into the game - then worrying about game balance.  Their logic is cart before the horse and the design process has been plagued by code first, history second mentality.  Are compromises necessary - absolutely!

 

Gettysburg, Waterloo, and a long list of epic battles that changed history were actually very balanced and close affairs.  That's why so many people study these battles in such excruciating detail.  The key to getting each of these battles to play historically accurately is to get more of the critical details correct.  But look at the design team response - "...most battles in reality were not balanced and realism a lot of times interferes with depth or tactical choices...."  This is one of the most brain dead statements I've ever seen from a company that has just produced a historical title.

 

Battles that would not be balance are most often not fought at all (e.g., Russia in 1812).  The weaker side knows it is weaker and maneuvers to better terrain, reinforcements, or simply falls back until it can fight on reasonably balance terms.  

 

Seriously - "...realism a lot of times interferes with depth or tactical choices."  Talk about a Chewbacca Defense of a game implementation.  Can anyone out there in the forum community understand and explain what this means? 

 

FRUSTRATING IN THE  EXTREME.

 

In the UGG development the historical homework was a very thin veneer.  The team simply didn't have the depth/background required to understand ACW weaponry, tactics, and combat and implement a game that came close to Gettysburg.  So they started nerfing Videttes, Skirmishers, Artillery, Cavalry, and the Infantry to derive results.

 

Grognards are happy to compromise within logical and reasonable boundaries.  But when you call a game Ultimate General and then pass the critical strategic decisions to the game engine that results in battlefield discontinuity your game crosses the boundaries of logic and reason.

 

Randall let me know if there's an open camping spot down the road.

[Panzeh]

The idea that a computer game where you command men on a screen from a vantage point better than anything we can do today is something that could be called "realistic" is flatly ridiculous.  There are complaints that this game does not allow enough flexibility for maneuver, but you have to draw a line somewhere in any design.  Why can't I fall back on Pipe Creek as Meade?  Why can't I just ignore Lee and march to Richmond in the knowledge that Lee will have to come down soon enough anyway?  Oh, wait, maybe you should think things through?  Grognards want every game to be about everything, bloated messes like World in Flames.

 

A lot of battles that appear evenly matched end up being extremely poor in terms of gameplay when a player who has a wargamer's perspective(e.g. seeing everything of relevance in the perfect vantage point with perfect command) takes one side in it.

 

Also, grognards often have bizarre ideas of what really happened and the idea that all of your prejudices with respect to history should be entertained is utterly insane.  Make the best game you can within the history of the moment.  I do think this game does not handle Buford's scenario well and I think it leaves a bad impression to show one of the weakest scenarios as the one every player sees first.  When both sides have a significant number of brigades, the game really opens up and becomes interesting.

[admin]

To: David Fair

You are just bitter for noone making a game of your dream, and as every person is different UGG is probably not for you. We know the ratings, you see them too. We are one of the highest user rated indie strategies released over last 5 years. And we are selling extremely well for a 2d game about one battle.

When you start saying that making and balancing realistic games Is easy we all start to wonder if you really know what game dev is. The moment you start discussing our brains or dna you lose all credibility completely.

This is unacceptable

 

Note to users

We always welcome heavy critique of the product, but that guy starting talking about mental abilities and dna. He may have meant it as a joke but he crossed the line. Soldier will be subject to bucking and gagging for 14 days. Subsequent attacks will cause a permanent ban.

[CSA Watkins]

snip................. The moment you start discussing our brains or dna you lose all credibility completely.

This is unacceptable.......snip

I have to agree^ I was kind of taken aback with that sentence, when I read it.

Although I have thrown gas onto the fire, I do want my criticism to be felt as constructive,

and the Last thing I want is to down right insult the Devs/Game. I wouldn't put up with that ^...

 

People need to put the shoe on the other foot for moment when in discussions, and look at things from a different prospective.

The Developers with all their Hard work,, really long hours / the stress coupled with worry of the Success or Failure.

The Gamble a company takes, charting new territory with a brand new game + starting from scratch is quite the undertaking.

These crass / witless statements in posts must stop(There ignorant! n insulting!), or the Developers will stop trying to reach out to the community.

A person will stop extending his hand / reaching out to the community, for every time he does some ungrateful s.o.b. takes a shit in it!

[Randall C. Reed]

To: David Fair

You are just bitter for noone making a game of your dream, and as every person is different UGG is probably not for you. We know the ratings, you see them too. We are one of the highest user rated indie strategies released over last 5 years. And we are selling extremely well for a 2d game about one battle. When you start saying that making and balancing realistic games Is easy we all start to wonder if you really know what game dev is. The moment you start discussing our brains or dna you lose all credibility completely.

This is unacceptable

 

Note to users

We always welcome heavy critique of the product, but that guy starting talking about mental abilities and dna. He may have meant it as a joke but he crossed the line. Soldier will be subject to bucking and gagging for 14 days. Subsequent attacks will cause a permanent ban.

 

This is an extremely disturbing post from a group of people who rely on the goodwill of their customers for their success. David Fair was speaking out of intellectual and emotional frustration, not disrespect. Apparently, you have been trying the patience of your most erudite and knowledgeable customers for some time. Banning David Fair is not wise or productive. You are banning one of your customers. Remember them? They are the folks who buy your products, shower you with money, give you valuable feedback and information to improve your products, and expect to be spoken to respectfully, openly, and honestly with minimal smoke and obfuscation. You are marketing your game to western Europe and the US, comrade, not the old Soviet Union. We believe in freedom of expression and the right to state an opinion openly and honestly without fear of Gulag-like repercussions from misguided egoists. You act like democracy and basic liberties are still foreign concepts in Kiev, Ukraine. I certainly hope not.

 

You have been less than truthful with your customers. After intensive play for the last two months, it is abundantly clear to me that the AI in UGG does NOT operate as you describe it in you blogs, forum responses, or advertising. You have published a battle of Gettysburg in which a player is literally unable to play the three-day battle of Gettysburg, as if the customer is making impossible demands. Other games and companies have been able to do this for years. It is not that difficult. But it is that important for a game that purports to be a realistic replay of the actual historical battle.

 

You have ignored valid criticism and responded with self-serving marketing propaganda that neither sheds light on issues or acknowledges customer concerns. This disrespect towards your customer base also demonstrates a horrible Not Invented Here syndrome that reveals a real lack of maturity and judgment and an overabundance of youthful pride and ego. Why shouldn't your customers be allowed to critique your mental acuity, capacity, clarity, judgment, vision, and creativity when it is precisely those capabilities that are going to be reflected in the games you design and publish? Your analytical capabilities are open for evaluation and comment when they reflect the products that your customers give you money for. When you accept their money, you cease riding your high horse and should prudently listen to your paying customers. Apparently, however, you do not listen very well.

 

It is abundantly clear that the major criticisms of this very promising game were made apparent to you all during the playtesting of this design. Apparently, you were unwilling or unable to resolve the critiques of the game scenarios discovered during testing. Now, I will share a piece of wisdom with you about publishing a game that I gleaned from years of experience as a historical game publishing company executive (and regardless of what less-than-insightful commenters may say, a game design is a game design, regardless of how it is mediated and delivered to the customer): There is a certain element of risk that one must assume whenever one attempts to design something as complicated as a simulation game. There is always a small possibility that the design will not be successful. That is why for half a century, we have playtested games before releasing them. The second element of this risk is that a playtest program may reveal a deeply flawed design that requires considerable time and effort to repair and rescue. Why engage in a playtest program if you are not willing to expend the resources to fix those issues that may be revealed? What does this say about the amount of respect the developers have for their playtesters and their paying customers? Loud volumes, let me assure you.

 

So, now we get a mea culpa (sort of) from the Voices in the Back Offices saying that we should lay off trying to make this potentially great design (but not yet great by any measure) better so it has a long and bright future. How should it make me feel about investing more of my hard earned money for future products from this very new and very green company? It may make me think twice about how dedicated to their customers they really are and how much they just want to take the money and dash off to the next cash flow project. Sorry, folks, at some point you have to reward your loyal customers for their loyalty. You do this by showing your ability to  evolve and perfect your design for the sake of making it a better design and ensuring it has a long and glorious future.

 

Game-Labs, demonstrate your respect and loyalty towards your loyal customers by (1) Fixing the acknowledged flaws in the current design and/or game engine; and (2) Stop acting like you are the Thought and Morality Police for your customer base due to some ascendent morality you think you possess as publishers. Take it from me, you do not own that moral high ground. Your customers do; they give you money, the sincerest form of flattery. Do they vent their opinions out of malice and a desire to hurt or out of frustration and high expectations for your design? I'll leave it to you to make that analytical coda. No man is an island; we are an interdependent community. Let Mr. Fair escape the Gulag to which you have exiled him. Your customers will respect you more for that than for the poor judgment you demonstrate by banning his erudite opinions and observations. God bless you!

[Randall C. Reed]

I have to agree^ I was kind of taken aback with that sentence, when I read it.

Although I have thrown gas onto the fire, I do want my criticism to be felt as constructive,

and the Last thing I want is to down right insult the Devs/Game. I wouldn't put up with that ^...

 

People need to put the shoe on the other foot for moment when in discussions, and look at things from a different prospective.

The Developers with all their Hard work,, really long hours / the stress coupled with worry of the Success or Failure.

The Gamble a company takes, charting new territory with a brand new game + starting from scratch is quite the undertaking.

 

I am glad to learn that things are selling well,

and really enjoy this game, there's no other game like it out there. 

 

These crass / witless statements in posts must stop(There ignorant! n insulting!), or the Developers will stop trying to reach out to the community.

A person will stop extending his hand / reaching out to the community, for every time he does some ungrateful s.o.b. takes a shit in it!

 

Mr. Watkins, you are the paying customer, for pity sake. You act like the publishers are doing you the favor of taking your money and your duty is to say only nice things and give them even more money next time. It doesn't work that way. Customers have paid their money for a stake in this debate. They have an investment to protect. BTW, we are organizing a search party to help you find your backbone. We start searching a the break of dawn. Do not lose hope!

[GShock]

That behavior is truly sad and over the line but it looks clear David has a bitter relationship with the DEVs and the game, God knows why.

In his comments I always tried to ignore the criticism that leads to nowhere but I appreciated the fact he wasn't censored because it's the right way to handle criticism and manage forums.

 

I seem to understand he's unsatisfied about the campaign progress throughout TIME. I mean between one battle and another. I am unsatisfied too and proposed a solution but it appears that this solution isn't good either. Then I checked and I didn't see an alternate proposal and this left me puzzled. 

 

UGG is supposed to build 4 days of combat with different engagements in these 4 days that are tactically connected to one another. This means it is supposed to build a dynamic campaign.

 

Even an engine of this simplicity on a very small theater, such an enterprise is beyond the means of this DEV team and if you carefully look at Creative Assembly, just to name a famous and HUGE DEV House, their campaign doesn't seem to be working either... and we're talking not only of a hundred times bigger manpower but also an experience in developing the same engine that exceeds 10 years.

 

The only viable alternative, in my opinion, is to build a hundred scenarios (branches) to insert in the campaign and let the engine select which is more appopriate to jump to, after the results of the prelude, while carrying on the losses of each side from one scenario to the other. Now building a hundred scenarios (and test them for accuracy, balance and presumed hypothetical historicity) is a huge undertaking by itself and that's why I proposed to release a map editor (not one where you can change the map but one where you can select which parts of the map are in use and where to place VPs) and an OOB editor (where you can select which segments of the Army of the Potomac and the Army of Northern Virginia will be pitted together) so that the community (us all) can build "custom battles" that the DEVS (and the DEVS only) may insert in the game.

 

I express harsh criticism, in this particular case, mitigated by the realistic expectations I have from this game, but I also propose solutions. Harsh criticism by itself, as harsh as it can get, seems more pointless and self-embarassing than useful. What's the point of criticizing something you have already criticized with an increased "harsh rate"? If there's no point there's no reason to do it at all... no?

 

It's his point I don't understand in doing what he did.

[CSA Watkins]

Mr. Watkins, you are the paying customer, for pity sake. You act like the publishers are doing you the favor of taking your money and your duty is to say only nice things and give them even more money next time. It doesn't work that way. Customers have paid their money for a stake in this debate. They have an investment to protect. BTW, we are organizing a search party to help you find your backbone. We start searching a the break of dawn. Do not lose hope!

Randall,  I have posted my dislikes with this game, my complaints which mirror yours to a point. I like the game, it has a lot of good potential. I can't see myself getting

my ass in a knot over disjointed battle flow(as an example), like you.

Do what I do learn to live with it, its such a small problem / non-existing with most everyone.

I am a optimist, I look at the potential this game has going forward. I enjoy playing the game (249 hrs). 

 

Now personal attacks on Players/Posters when, and if they say things that just doesn't agree with yours.

There's a big difference with showing respect, and brown nosing, where mine is the former.

 

Seems like you have agenda since you showed up here. Find problems with and not limited to

(Game / Game Play / Developers, and their decisions going forward. / People that like n enjoy the game(regardless of its short comings.)

 

Verbal hissing / insulting me(trying to make me look like a 0.10 cent fool) because I enjoy this game n have respect for the Developers.

We? who is this we? Search Party for a Backbone?

Trying to add weight to you post by adding the 'We'?

 

An ass kisser I am not. I give credit where credit is due. I respect the Developers for their integrity, their willingness to listen / work with the community.

You do not realize that the Developers have put to use some good suggestions that were generated in these forums by Players.

These suggestions are now implemented to a degree into the Game.

Asking for feedback after patches, answering questions in a timely manner. Keeping us informed with upcoming patches  etc etc.

 

Randall you are 65 yrs old, a man that that has a impressive resume, working in the Gaming World(producing/publishing).

I would expect from your colorful past, that you would conduct yourself in a more professional manner here.

 

I have paid a lot more $ for a game, that was just crap, I felt that I was ripped off n Got pissed off. I seen their glaring mistakes

in game. Sure I posted my dislikes. 

But what I didn't do was, go to the game's/Developers forum's than post in a way with

veiled / disrespectful comments like some do, so when read were basically rude / attacking / insulting, and Belittling.

 

If you have more to say to me take it to the PM,I will not get into a shit slinging contest here in the public forum.

This way you can air you dislike for me because, basically I show a optimistic favorable view towards, people / Products I like(car, pc,etc),

State my likes / Dislikes for Game's / Developers etc.in a respectable manner.

 

I sent you a PM earlier before I read that post^

I went as far as to complement you in that PM.

Did I make a mistake wording that PM Randall?

I fear I have....

 

This thread has evolved into something resembling, a Dog chasing his tail,,,

Going nowhere, not accomplishing anything, but just hurting others,

raising peoples ire / birse to a degree........

 

Good Character is best Kept,

Than trying to Recover........

 

 

Edit..... Randall,,with ur post,, me Angry no,,Upset no,,  My attitude is always euthymic.

My ire has never been raised here just my eye brows when reading some posts....

scatological> you are correct,,,, point taken,,,,

cloyingly deferential, yes I can see your point.

And your reference to my pretty head, thx.. I been told that all my life

by the pretty girls,,,,,  

[OLee O'Hara]

The developers have always listened to the customers and always appreciated even heavy critique. There were many suggestions posted by players which directly found their way into the next patch. And if one claims the opposite it's just not true. They always tried to improve the game as much as possible and even offered help when a certain player had problems and couldn't login on his steam account anymore. So I can really understand that the developers are angry and disappointed...

The freedom of speech always ends where the freedom of the other person starts... at least in europe ...and even more when one gets insulted in his own house (forum). And the posts by David Fair were insulting and the posts by Randall C.Reed were even worse....

 

@Randall C.Reed & David Fair:   if you successfully managed it to delay the next patch by distracting and annoying the developers I'll never forgive you

 

@the developers:  just forgive them after some time and just finish work a bit earlier tomorrow, postpone the patch to next week and have some quality time this weekend.

And after having read this thread I've decided to buy the next game anyway whatever it will be about...

[Randall C. Reed]

 

Now personal attacks on Players/Posters when, and if they say things that just doesn't agree with yours.

There's a big difference with showing respect, and brown nosing, where mine is the former.

 

Seems like you have agenda since you showed up here. Find problems with and not limited to

(Game / Game Play / Developers, and their decisions going forward. / People that like n enjoy the game(regardless of its short comings.)

 

Verbal hissing / insulting me(trying to make me look like a 0.10 cent fool) because I enjoy this game n have respect for the Developers.

We? who is this we? Search Party for a Backbone?

Trying to add weight to you post by adding the 'We'?

 

Randall you are 65 yrs old, a man that that has a impressive resume, working in the Gaming World(producing/publishing).

I would expect from your colorful past, that you would conduct yourself in a more professional manner here.

 

I have paid a lot more $ for a game, that was just crap, I felt that I was ripped off n Got pissed off. I seen their glaring mistakes

in game. Sure I posted my dislikes. 

But what I didn't do was, go to the game's/Developers forum's than post in a way with

veiled / disrespectful comments like some do, so when read were basically rude / attacking / insulting, and Belittling.

 

If you have more to say to me take it to the PM,I will not get into a shit slinging contest here in the public forum.

This way you can air you dislike for me because, basically I show a optimistic favorable view towards, people / Products I like(car, pc,etc),

State my likes / Dislikes for Game's / Developers etc.in a respectable manner.

 

I sent you a PM earlier before I read that post^

I went as far as to complement you in that PM.

Did I make a mistake wording that PM Randall?

I fear I have....

 

This thread has evolved into something resembling, a Dog chasing his tail,,,

Going nowhere, not accomplishing anything, but just hurting others,

raising peoples ire / birse to a degree........

 

Good Character is best Kept,

Than trying to Recover........

 

Lock or Delete thread would be my choice...

 

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Wow, who has the thin skin? Do you not recognize a bit of levity when you read it? I was teasing you; apparently I should not  have done that with your online temperament. I was expecting a clever repartee comeback, not someone going mad dog with scatological references. I must have made you really angry, didn't I? Please, do not take me or my comments so seriously. I did not mean in any way to upset you and ruin your day. My tease was based on the fact that, yes, after decades of experience in the game biz, I do have an idea of what the inside of game companies are like. I know when they are being disingenuous and trying to blow smoke up the orifices of their customers. But, you are correct; my opinion is that your post was cloyingly deferential to a company that has a good product but has shown a lot of arrogance and disregard for all their customers in their communications. Criticism of their most recent product release is like finding money on the street; good feedback is hard to find and is worth a lot to the organization that knows how to use it to improve a good product. It is not the customer's job to lard them up and endlessly tell them the good they have done: Silence implies consent in most venues. The plain fact is, these guys are in it to make money and they need customers more than the customers need them. Now, come on folks, that is simple Business 101 common sense. We risk nothing by expressing our viewpoint and sharing our ideas, even when that expression is harsh.

 

In my experience in the industry, I have had game reviewers and game customers chew me up one side and down the other and to pick at every single thing I did in any of my game designs and hoist me on a pole for my abject incompetence and stupidity. But if they had good, useful, insightful feedback after playing the game in a true customer setting, I would steal their ideas willingly and quickly and not be bothered by their fanatical venom over what I had wrought. It simply goes with the territory. See, their feedback, no matter how vociferous, was invaluable to the perfection of my design and the sharpening of my design skills. I needed their feedback more than they needed to vent their emotions to me.

 

Mr. Fair has told me that he enjoys the game, is in awe of its potential and frustrated by its inadequacies. It is a very uneven design. Whether you like it or not, some things have been brilliantly executed but other equally important have been amateurishly presented. I personally think that, given the depth of his professional interest in things military and things analytical, he has been reasonably controlled in his writings. He knows what he is talking about when he puts pen to paper. There is no rule that I know of that states that only civil, genteel, comments, sweetly framed, are proper. Now, we may be received better if we are civil and respectful, but there is clearly room for indignant play outrage at something as trivial as a game if we are so disposed. But, look folks, David's rather benign comments (by most standards) actually got those swell heads ANGRY. And once angry, they vented their spleen through the device of emotional torture (Admin's words, not mine) and verbal banishment. That is magnitudes more egregious than anything perpetrated by Mr. Fair. That is more upsetting than anything i have written, if you have your head on straight.

 

One of the most amazing things that he has critiqued my commentary for was repeating the criticisms that the playtesters had voiced on numerous occasions in the closed, closely held, playtester's forum. The G-L folks knew about these flaws, apparently appreciated them at face value, yet chose not to act on that knowledge. As a game developer of long standing, I consider that to be a serious breach of publisher-customer ethical standards. I do not care whether you have never been a game designer and do not appreciate my statement. Your lack of experience in the business is not my fault. I know what I have experienced; I know what the standards of ethical behavior have been in an industry I have devoted a big chunk of my life to.  Most of the UGG players don't care about any of this. OK, don't waste your time reading my crap. But for those who may be higher order thinkers and ethical philosophers of any standing, I offer a broader perspective on game design than anyone else reading this, unless some of the Old Guard (like B.C Milligan) are mildly amused by this entire thread and are following it. I know what I know and I don't believe that you know what you don't know. Unless you have walked half a century in my gaming moccasins, you may not be aware of tried and tested themes and ideas that have permeated the industry for many years. Trust me, the G-L boys are not going anywhere just because a few "bullies" like Fair and me talk mean to them.

 

You don't agree with me and I certainly think your ideas are bat crap excessive. So the best solution is to agree not to read the other person's post. If my posting upset you, it was unfortunate. The solution is to simply not bother your pretty little head with my addled ramblings. Good night and God bless you!

[Randall C. Reed]

The developers have always listened to the customers and always appreciated even heavy critique. There were many suggestions posted by players which directly found their way into the next patch. And if one claims the opposite it's just not true. They always tried to improve the game as much as possible and even offered help when a certain player had problems and couldn't login on his steam account anymore. So I can really understand that the developers are angry and disappointed...

The freedom of speech always ends where the freedom of the other person starts... at least in europe ...and even more when one gets insulted in his own house (forum). And the posts by David Fair were insulting and the posts by Randall C.Reed were even worse....

 

@Randall C.Reed & David Fair:   if you successfully managed it to delay the next patch by distracting and annoying the developers I'll never forgive you

 

@the developers:  just forgive them after some time and just finish work a bit earlier tomorrow, postpone the patch to next week and have some quality time this weekend.

And after having read this thread I've decided to buy the next game anyway whatever it will be about...

 

You are entitled to your opinions. But if you are delusional enough to think that anything that David and I write on OUR forum (not theirs--we gamers provide 96% of the content and generate free publicity and "buzz" for their product; the cheapest form of advertising on the planet) really is going to affect their publication and release schedule, you are incredibly naive. And we are under not one whit of obligation to avoid insulting them or hurting their tender egos. Frankly, I was insulted by the activity in their postings and the way they avoid honest responses to sincere concerns from their buying public. Finally, if you think that anything we say or do would dissuade them from their pursuit of money, you are bat crap crazy in the head. What, are you a 13-year-old? But, IF they delay a patch (a quick and dirty fix to a problem that eventually requires a serious, thorough fix) because of some insight that was gleaned from something in our critique and commentary, I would be very pleased to note a developer responded to thoughtful, sincere suggestions from their buying public (me!).

 

And, how dare you apologize for me, you presumptuous pinhead. If there is any apologizing to be done for my actions, I am certainly man enough to do my own talking. You take care of your side of the street. Rest assured, I will take care of my own messes and faux pas. God bless you!

[GShock]

I honestly have no idea what these guys are talking about but I presume either or all of them should have done as I did, simply talk only about what's worth talking.

Don't let the thread derails. If one posts anything that could lead to flames, ignore and discuss only about the rest.

[R.E.B.Blunt]

There are people on this forum who have through private message attacked me, my ideas and my suggestions as though they are formed from some lesser base of knowledge. (You know who you are, I will not put you on blast) During the early stages of development of this game before many of you were part of this forum we had many of the same discussions I see pop up from time to time through new users and old as though its some new idea or suggestion.

 

The only real "UGG Fatal Flaw discovered" would be the constant rehashing of old intellectual bullying that goes on in this forum. Some people just have their own opinions and you cannot sway them one way or another. Other people are open to discussion and will admit when they have been defeated.

 

True wisdom is the art of learning from past mistakes and false ideas. Those that cannot I am afraid will over and over repeat the same tired old discussions...

[GShock]

There simply is no way to make everyone happy but the point is: since some people REALLY studied history and know a LOT about the american civil war (most likely more than the DEVs and surely the common knowledge of the community shadows the knowledge of any single person here, no matter how much he knows), since this battle in particular has been analyzed in OOB, strategies and terrain, I see nothing wrong (on the contrary I see it as the perfect solution) to have the community build custom battles that depict exactly what they know, what they think would have happened in case the Prelude had gone differently, in case Little Round Top had been captured by CSA, etc. etc.

 

More in general allow the community to build the way they think the engine should switch from one battle to another and make these community-built scenarios "under evaluation" by the DEVs for implementation into the standard game.

 

We most certainly already have the tools:

 

Scenario setting (Build the briefing, set objectives: how many VP to be held by the end of the scenario; start/end time of the scenario)

Map editor (which parts of the map must be used; where, what value and how many VPs must be put into this map)

OOB editor (Build starting units [in all details, including their starting morale and condition] and leaders, build reinforcing units and leaders and assign these groups to the scenario)

Battle editor (Manage reinforcements from OOB: the time of arrival, the location of their arrival)

 

This stuff is already in the engine.

 

If it is released to the community, people can start building Custom Battles and if these custom battles are historically accurate, the DEVs may put them into the game.

 

This is called modding.

 

Now, not only the quality of modded games is always better than the quality of vanilla games (as far as my humongous experience goes), but we also have the luck to have a person among the DEVs who's been a very talented and successful modder in the Total War engine environment and who knows this statement to be true... and he hopefully will agree. 

 

At the light of the fact the game is just out and that at present time the DEVs are entirely focused on the IOS version, I'd say there's no reason for harsh criticism right now (it is ultra-important to state here that I myself am very unsatisfied of many things in the PC version but I just take a different approach). There's reason to report, discuss and help the DEVs improve the game.

 

The reason + the tools guarantee that this will happen.

 

Let the flames, harsh criticism and even "go to hell" things come if at 2.0 the fixes asked haven't come. That's how it should work, in my opinion.

[Nick Thomadis]

I come again to this post to see it full of hatred and personal accusations. I am personally very sad for this. In general we do not police the forums and leave much freedom to users to express their opinions, good or bad about the game and about anything else related. But as in all civilized forums, there is a maximum level of tolerance for keeping a thread being derailed. From the start of this discussion, it has been expressed a much respected criticism, which though included personal accusations to the developers about their origin, then for their DNA and other things, that usually get immediately addressed by a moderator of any civilized forum. We kept this post alive because we thought something good will come, maybe a useful feedback that we can take into consideration for the upcoming patch. But now the post has become a place full of threats, insults, and personal show offs. 

This is the *Last Warning*. Please understand that the post will be closed if you cannot keep your temper.

[FraGG]

randall

 

youre entitled to your opinion.

 

But you talk about hardcore Players do not complain etc. Thing is a good game does not only apply to hardcore Gamers but to all.

 

The General Feedback for this game is great and i like it very much because of what it is.

 

I feel like you make it look like your opinion is the only truth.

 

Also id like to add that you should stpp that ' youre a customer bla bla bla'.

 

We all know we are customers but please dont try to represent People represent yourself im totally fine with that.

 

If youre presenting yourself people can agree with you or disagree with you but you shouldnt say to people but you are a customer why this that etc. We are all grown man here i suppose that can make their own decisions, have their own opinions.

 

But please dont try to 'represent' the community because your opinion does not represent mine.

 

Thx

[Boxing_Kangaroo]

Yesterday I wrote MY personal review on UGG on Steam. I usually don't do reviews, however I like reading them since the actually give you a good taste of the absolute value and actual experience of the product before you committ to a purchase.

Now I'm writing a reply to a Topic, which got my attention due to its very challenging title.

Note: I usually don't do discussions on such kind of forums.

Long story short:

As for my personal experience I do not understand why some people treat UGG and it's whole game mechanic like a AAA title from one of those major publishers and mainstream game studios. It's not.

It's an Indie game which earned it's AAA status due to an innovative approach to Real Time Strategy, good execution( which is everything, since we all have ideas and know how to promote them, and apparently we also know how to execute them), creative design and customer feedback implementation...

All these things and many more mentioned are in set framework: Financial restrictions, Game Engine Restrictions( There is no perfect straightforward game engine), Restricted HISTORICAL Setting and with it is accuracy).

Not being too familiar with the original planning for UGG and the set business goals. But I think they are pretty satisfied when it comes down to evaluating their piece of work and it's overall perfomance.

Not being able to give a direct quote from one of the many post in this topic( due to personal / technical restrictions ), I vaguely recall a statement, that this game is doomed to fail from the very start and how it can not fully releash it's full potencial...That must have been a different game.

Somehow the "Long Story short" became longer than expected, I have to work on my execution...

Take note: I truely think criticism on this game and on an any game is necessary, but pls think in a box. If you think outside the box, you will have to enlarge your current box( without damaging the contnent) or just open another box.

Last but not least. I purchased UGG in early access, still playing it up to this day, meanwhile trying to handle the multiplayer which seems really challenging and overall I'm very satisfied with it. (Value for money!)

I consider it my "Hidden Gem" in my Steam library, I'm enthuastic Total War player( mainly NTW online, used to play a lot of SP in ETW but only due to available mods) and every now and then I feel like telling other people in the lobby: " hey have you heard of this game?"

Note: Usually when discussing about "limitations" of the Total War games. Some people say it's not the like total war franchise. Exactly. You got it. It is different and it's suppossed to be that way.

Keep up the good work and I'm looking forward to the Ipad and the upcoming patch.

Cheerio

Says the Kangaroo and hopped away

[Boxing_Kangaroo]

Haha just read the last sentence. Obviously I'm not looking foward to get an Ipad. Cheeky little bugger

[Randall C. Reed]

There are people on this forum who have through private message attacked me, my ideas and my suggestions as though they are formed from some lesser base of knowledge. (You know who you are, I will not put you on blast) During the early stages of development of this game before many of you were part of this forum we had many of the same discussions I see pop up from time to time through new users and old as though its some new idea or suggestion.

 

The only real "UGG Fatal Flaw discovered" would be the constant rehashing of old intellectual bullying that goes on in this forum. Some people just have their own opinions and you cannot sway them one way or another. Other people are open to discussion and will admit when they have been defeated.

 

True wisdom is the art of learning from past mistakes and false ideas. Those that cannot I am afraid will over and over repeat the same tired old discussions...

Sorry, I just got the game six weeks ago.  Tried to look at all of the forum topics that were relevant to my concerns, but I must have missed a few. My apologies.

[Randall C. Reed]

Take note: I truely think criticism on this game and on an any game is necessary, but pls think in a box. If you think outside the box, you will have to enlarge your current box( without damaging the contnent) or just open another box.

Last but not least. I purchased UGG in early access, still playing it up to this day, meanwhile trying to handle the multiplayer which seems really challenging and overall I'm very satisfied with it. (Value for money!)

I consider it my "Hidden Gem" in my Steam library, I'm enthuastic Total War player( mainly NTW online, used to play a lot of SP in ETW but only due to available mods) and every now and then I feel like telling other people in the lobby: " hey have you heard of this game?"

Note: Usually when discussing about "limitations" of the Total War games. Some people say it's not the like total war franchise. Exactly. You got it. It is different and it's suppossed to be that way.

 

It might be hard to believe, but some of the most frequent critics actually like what is going on in the game very much. Probably because of its promise, I get fired up about its shortcomings. They are patching like crazy, so make sure you are updated. They give no indication, but I desperately hope that they come through with a comprehensive fix to the scenario situation before it is too late. Stay tuned: Film at 11!

[Randall C. Reed]

Thing is a good game does not only apply to hardcore Gamers but to all.

 

The General Feedback for this game is great and i like it very much because of what it is.

 

I feel like you make it look like your opinion is the only truth.

 

Also id like to add that you should stpp that ' youre a customer bla bla bla'.

 

We all know we are customers but please dont try to represent People represent yourself im totally fine with that.

 

If youre presenting yourself people can agree with you or disagree with you but you shouldnt say to people but you are a customer why this that etc. We are all grown man here i suppose that can make their own decisions, have their own opinions.

 

But please dont try to 'represent' the community because your opinion does not represent mine.

 

Thx

_ _ _ _ _ _ _  _  __ _ _ _ _ _  __ _ _  __ _  _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _  __  _ __ _ _ _ _  __ _ _ _  __  __ _ _ _ _  _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _  _ _ _ _ __ _  _ _ _ __  _ __ _ _

 

That's why is is called a FORUM. Goes back to that Greek and Roman thing. (Google it.) I will say what I want to say and mean precisely what I say when I say it. Who are you to tell me what I should and should not say? If you don't like what I say, please disagree; rebut my assertions; counter my argument; destroy me with my own logic and make me out to be the fool; offer up your own considered opinion; assert your own solutions to problems as you see them: Share your thoughts and your metacognitive renderings. Share your experience and your accumulated wisdom. Expose your gaming philosophies for all the world to see. But please do not attempt to merely silence a dissenting voice.

 

But, whatever you do, don't simply tell me I shouldn't do this and I shouldn't say that. Don't tell me I am being unfair to the boys in the back office. They are grownups. They know how to take reasoned criticism like men. If it makes them uncomfortable, ask yourself why one old man in South Carolina should make these Lions of Computer Gaming feel foolish or inadequate? And, for heaven's sake, if you are going to try to tell me that, when I talk about the power of being the consumer and the fact that the customer has a stake in the game he or she pays good money for, is a terrible assertion to make, then GIVE ME A COUNTER argument. Destroy my assertions with reasoned point and counterpoint. Put your brainpower on the line. Serve up your absolute truths for all to see. But, why in the world do you think that I am obligated to submit to your will simply because you say, "Stop that, I don't like it?"

 

I never said or implied that I spoke for any community. My thoughts and ideas are entirely my own and I speak solely for myself. And I take full responsibility for what I said. To the extent that I got overly engaged and imprudent and my comments upset anyone or hurt anyone's feelings, I sincerely apologize to them. It was unnecessary and distracting.

 

But, FraGG, do you see how absolutely unhelpful it is to the discussion to make demands without offering up anything in return? If I raise your blood pressure and motivate you to respond, then the discussion is advanced. If your response is just blind commands to cease and desist because what I say makes you uncomfortable or angry, it advances nothing and grossly misses the mark. Love me or hate me, but never accuse me of failing to offer reasoned arguments for discussion, debate, and rebuttal. In the USA, we are fond of saying, "I may totally dislike and disagree with what you say, but I will fight to death to defend your right to say it." Socrates would be very disappointed if it were any other way.

 

I know of what I speak.

[GShock]

You guys have totally derailed from the topic.

[Randall C. Reed]

You guys have totally derailed from the topic.

 

No, I don't think so. A forum is a free exchange of ideas. When arguments and posts are made that attempt to distort or inhibit or suppress the free of expression of unpopular ideas, that IMMEDIATELY becomes the top topic of concern, because if that issue is not resolved, what on-topic posts that follows have been pre-censored, intimidated, or scared into silence. Free exchange of good ideas grounds to a halt. That is boring and bad.

 

Currently, the tangential issue be discussed is the need to understand FORUM ground rules in the context of American ideals of Freedom of Expression. Once that has been re-established, the debate can push on unfettered. Once this bit of "housekeeping" is resolved, a full-throated debate can continue. I indulge your patience, GShock; the topic and the forum as still substantially on the rails and functioning as it should.

 

Remember, my wonderful gaming friends of a hundred different backgrounds, interested, education levels, political systems, and languages, it is this variety that injects so much meaning and relevance into a truly highly charged forum debate and maintains any forum or topic thread with its vitality and meaning.

 

Enjoy.