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7 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

These 3 changes would be the next step for a good 2nd iteration on what we have gotten. I have other thoughts on the matter, but these mainly pertain to trading and crafting.

Nothing that I disagree with in your entire post.  Well thought out and presented.  I would however, radically lower costs for ALL resource extraction as it is the starting point for the economy.

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39 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

I started with 250k of trade goods.

Ended last night at 855k.

2 indiaman's and I was not full both ways so you could get more out.

That's actually not that much in terms of time invested and profits. I make 39k outgoing and about 15-20k ingoing pr indiaman for a 15-20 min run (depending on winds), and I run 4 indiamans = (39kx4) + (20kx4) k in profit = 156+80*3 (to get a full hour), *5 (to match your time investment) = 3540k

Now I haven't bothered to do this since I'm already the richest man on the server, but we do have a dedicated trading thread and in so far trading reflects on crafting then it's purely in order to get funds to harvest the basic ressources. This can easily be said without having to waste space on trading. 

In crafting - my original post had omitted a serious issue: Permits. First off - the permits are too expensive, secondly - there's no permits for a lot of the ships, ofc there's no reason to craft a ship atm since everyone still has a supply of ships, but in time it would prob be nice to have the permits available in store.

@admin on that note: I don't know if it was abundantly clear in my first posting but I sincerely believe you're going off in a wrong direction with crafting. Woods shouldn't be scarce - it should be readily available - that way the best PB fleets need to stay the best and the less skilled PB fleets can excuse their lack of skills. I believe the effect of these changes will be singularly negative, especially post release where we don't have the cushion that is the stored ships. The PB fleet that takes control of the rare drop ports from the start will have an immediate and tangible advantage over others - an advantage that they can press untill they themselves becomes so bored of empty PBs that they join the rest of the community in hiatus and stops playing.

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You earn reals by trading. 

You need reals for resource crafting. --> Resource producers MUST trade. 

 

You earn doubloons by accomplishing missions or capping AI traders.

You earn combat medals by doing PVP. 

You need combat medals, doubloons and resources for frigate crafting. --> Frigate shipwrights MUST (a) trade, (b) accomplish missions or cap AI traders and (c) do PVP. 

 

You earn victory marks by doing RVR. 

You need victory marks, doubloons and resources for SOL crafting. --> SOL shipwrights MUST (a) trade, (b) accomplish missions or cap AI traders and (c) do RVR. 

 

I might have forgotten some more requirements, but to me it's obvious that regular ship building just asks too much from a single player. An active clan with 5+ players might pull that off in a reasonable time, but even with joint effort it's still a huge time investment you have to put in. 

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I am missing the Euro Trader ! difficult for me to find some basic resources around Bahamas, I need to open outpost and open building to get resources. Nobody selling them.

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Just now, Aerospace said:

I am missing the Euro Trader ! difficult for me to find some basic resources around Bahamas, I need to open outpost and open building to get resources. Nobody selling them.

I don't actually know what the Euro Trader is...(im a noob?)

Edited by Angus MacDuff

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2 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I don't actually know what the Euro Trader is...(im a noob?)

You used to be able to put up buy contracts for resources at 4x (or 5x) their extraction price - the contract would then fill instantly. That was the "EU trader"

You had to do it in a port that has the resources available.

Edited by Teutonic
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50 minutes ago, van Veen said:

You earn reals by trading. 

You need reals for resource crafting. --> Resource producers MUST trade. 

 

You earn doubloons by accomplishing missions or capping AI traders.

You earn combat medals by doing PVP. 

You need combat medals, doubloons and resources for frigate crafting. --> Frigate shipwrights MUST (a) trade, (b) accomplish missions or cap AI traders and (c) do PVP. 

 

You earn victory marks by doing RVR. 

You need victory marks, doubloons and resources for SOL crafting. --> SOL shipwrights MUST (a) trade, (b) accomplish missions or cap AI traders and (c) do RVR. 

 

I might have forgotten some more requirements, but to me it's obvious that regular ship building just asks too much from a single player. An active clan with 5+ players might pull that off in a reasonable time, but even with joint effort it's still a huge time investment you have to put in. 

Quick question concerning ressource extraction: have read multiple times now that the extraction is overpriced. Last time I checked I always extracted way too much although it was possible to easily enter the number necessary for the task at hand, which would have been much smaller, as especially hemp is expensive but likewise needed to a low degree to build a ship. So is it that most players just always extract everything and have to gather money again, or is it de facto more expensive than 6 weeks ago?

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2 minutes ago, Palatinose said:

Quick question concerning ressource extraction: have read multiple times now that the extraction is overpriced. Last time I checked I always extracted way too much although it was possible to easily enter the number necessary for the task at hand, which would have been much smaller, as especially hemp is expensive but likewise needed to a low degree to build a ship. So is it that most players just always extract everything and have to gather money again, or is it de facto more expensive than 6 weeks ago?

you can chose the amount to extract , I think the cost has changed but not sure

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5 minutes ago, Palatinose said:

Quick question concerning ressource extraction: have read multiple times now that the extraction is overpriced. Last time I checked I always extracted way too much although it was possible to easily enter the number necessary for the task at hand, which would have been much smaller, as especially hemp is expensive but likewise needed to a low degree to build a ship. So is it that most players just always extract everything and have to gather money again, or is it de facto more expensive than 6 weeks ago?

It's not more expensive to extract ressources than before, it's the net profits that has been reduced qua time invested. It's a moot distinction, the net result is the same - extraction of ressources feels more expensive because reals takes longer to come by.

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20 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

It's not more expensive to extract ressources than before, it's the net profits that has been reduced qua time invested. It's a moot distinction, the net result is the same - extraction of ressources feels more expensive because reals takes longer to come by.

Thanks. 

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32 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

It's not more expensive to extract ressources than before, it's the net profits that has been reduced qua time invested. It's a moot distinction, the net result is the same - extraction of ressources feels more expensive because reals takes longer to come by.

basically this. Is the difficult in earning enough reals that creates the problem of a difficult of massive production + a depressed demand (a.k.a. stagnation by deflation).

If devs raise the pay for sinking ships and/or for med and short distance trade, this could help

Edited by victor
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What's the difference between the old controversial austerity patch and the current situation? I felt poor and limited then and I feel poor and limited now.

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17 minutes ago, jodgi said:

What's the difference between the old controversial austerity patch and the current situation? I felt poor and limited then and I feel poor and limited now.

The only difference is that we have a dock full of ships atm which insulates the playerbase against the "rare" woods. After wipe - the problem will be painfully clear, both the imbalance of woods and mods, and the problem of one fleet sitting on the best woods and the other fleets being lambs to the slaughter in RvR as well as PvP.

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6 hours ago, jodgi said:

What's the difference between the old controversial austerity patch and the current situation? I felt poor and limited then and I feel poor and limited now.

The old austerity patch had a 'simple genius' aspect to it. Yes it was hard, but it was fair and somehow the way they did it promoted people working together and the difference between then and now is that then people actually did work together in large groups, not just clans but as a nation we worked as one. This new patch has a 'complex idiot' or 'idiot complex' to it which has everything overly convoluted with no clear reason as to why we need multiple currencies when one and two worked fine. Seems the intention with all these extra changes is to pack as much perceived complexity into the game, but because it doesn't fit or necessarily make sense in the game it kind of falls flat. This is mostly eco/crafting, most of the other changes are OK to good and I would draw the line at RNG crafting, that's about where we lost it with balance (which mod meta was already a killer we we're trying to lock up), after finally getting some handle on mods and stacking we did stacking mods 2.0 and waved bye the progress. So yeah this patch has the options to make money but because there's a bunch of difference currencies it's a complete mess and lack of true free market means you'll never run a real business, because we have a sort of communist approach to outpost and building slots, which ironically has created the worse type of unequality there is in that the dedicated crafters who could be funding their entire nations with ships, repairs, mods, whatever have no more ability to do so than the non-dedicated crafter. Both are hard locked to a very very arbitrary number of businesses, and the size of their business is hard locked as well.

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I have crafted and sold a couple thousand cannons/carros… and built several ships since the last updates... everything is working well for me, I can sell cannons at fair prices and make reals. 

My only qualm is... I cant really make money at selling medium cannons... no market for em unfortunately.

Would the Admin consider having the Devs make cannon seconds for sale as default guns at the ports instead of mediums being the default guns... Maybe consider  the cannon seconds to only be available up to 24 pound size and not capable of handling double shot or double charge, as thye would be warn and used... maybe even to make them look a little weathered, and at seconds prices too.

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Nope, but I hear crafting is hard these days. So I'm just trading for reals until I lose all my ships, then I'll have a look at the crafting. Maybe it has been tweaked a bit by then :D 

I get that when line ships are very powerful they can not be to easy to make, or we will all be roaming OW in line ships only. This would reduce 5. rates to trader hunting and patrol use only, and that would be sad imo, because I think 5. rates should be the normal "work horse" most players use.. Not Bellona! xD  

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11 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

This new patch has a 'complex idiot' or 'idiot complex' to it which has everything overly convoluted with no clear reason as to why we need multiple currencies when one and two worked fine. Seems the intention with all these extra changes is to pack as much perceived complexity into the game, but because it doesn't fit or necessarily make sense in the game it kind of falls flat.

^^ Totally agree. This game needs only 2 currencies, 1 monetary and 1 for achievements. 

 

11 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

dedicated crafters who could be funding their entire nations with ships, repairs, mods, whatever have no more ability to do so than the non-dedicated crafter. Both are hard locked to a very very arbitrary number of businesses, and the size of their business is hard locked as well.

The real problem is that the different currencies come from different game activities, and since you need all currencies for crafting, you have to perform all activities in the game:

  • PVP (for combat marks), 
  • RVR (for victory marks),
  • trading (for reals),
  • resouces farming, and
  • doubloon farming (doing delivery missions or AI trader hunting). 

It's just too much asked. 

But you need a good crafting system to do PVP and RVR. So, the game starves itself to death. 

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Why can we not get have a currency exchange system in game between all currencies in admiralty? That would give all players access to all currencies = all aspects of the game, and the devs could control inflation by tweaking the exchange rates.. 

For example the exchange rate could be: 1M Reals - 100K dobloons - 100 combat medal - 1 victory mark. I'm a RvR player part time so I'm always trying to make VM super valuable, and this is just an example. I have no idea what the the rates should really be.    

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19 hours ago, jodgi said:

What's the difference between the old controversial austerity patch and the current situation? I felt poor and limited then and I feel poor and limited now.

The result will be the same as soon as we lose the ships we have in docks. Player leaving this work called Naval Action.

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17 minutes ago, Tiedemann said:

Why can we not get have a currency exchange system in game between all currencies in admiralty? That would give all players access to all currencies = all aspects of the game, and the devs could control inflation by tweaking the exchange rates.. 

For example the exchange rate could be: 1M Reals - 100K dobloons - 100 combat medal - 1 victory mark. I'm a RvR player part time so I'm always trying to make VM super valuable, and this is just an example. I have no idea what the the rates should really be.    

not a bad idea, but we should be careful.

since we get 1 victory mark every monday if you control a port. would you be able to exchange the currency the other way too?

Then well, then I feel like i'd be too rich :P

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21 hours ago, jodgi said:

What's the difference between the old controversial austerity patch and the current situation? I felt poor and limited then and I feel poor and limited now.

You are right: at the end of the story there is no difference (except the fact that there are less NPCs in the open sea and crafting is even more difficult)

 

Edited by victor
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2 hours ago, Intrepido said:

The result will be the same as soon as we lose the ships we have in docks. Player leaving this work called Naval Action.

Ech! You're so negative, it's not sexy.

22 minutes ago, victor said:

You are right: at the end of the story there is no difference (except the fact that there are less NPCs in the open sea and crafting is even more difficult)

 

But you eco guys liked austerity, right? Even I was fine during austerity, I crafted guns and sold them at 25% markup like an idiot. I had enough for my limited PvP needs. Now I'm not sure there is a proper market for guns without going on long sails, everyone is pushed into doing horrible trading goods runs and doing everything on their own (solo, alts or closed clan eco).

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12 minutes ago, jodgi said:

 

But you eco guys liked austerity, right? Even I was fine during austerity, I crafted guns and sold them at 25% markup like an idiot. I had enough for my limited PvP needs. Now I'm not sure there is a proper market for guns without going on long sails, everyone is pushed into doing horrible trading goods runs and doing everything on their own (solo, alts or closed clan eco).

Not me. Deflation brings stagnation that depress the demand of goods and, on the long term, kills any economy.

 

Edited by victor
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3 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

You will always be, no matter what you say.

YO MOMMA!...

2 minutes ago, victor said:

Not me. Deflation brings stagnation that depress the demand of goods and, on the long term, kills any economy.

 

Interesting... but I don't understand.

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