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Endurance and Final exams - How to pass them (in new damage model)

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5 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

with friends. It is not a problem in my view that some people like ganking. There is nothing wrong with the game design there. The only problem I see that in a gank limited chain favors the gankers for reasons I don't need to explain again I hope. I warned people the second the devs told us about limited chain that ganking would be worse but I was wrong according to the forums. If chain was unlimited like repairs the line ships would not catch up to the frigates if they play their chain game into the wind.

The limiting of chain came with an expectation that repairs would be limited with it, that way a skillfull captain could waste the chain/reapirs of his opponents and have enough of his own to get away. NA could live off 100% even battles, even 1.5x br battles, but it would not last long if every battle was a gank. Ganks, or any scenario where the battle is mostly decided before it is even played, is not good gameplay and is not attractive to gamers looking for a good time.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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3 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

13-knot death star

those 13 knot death stars have cannot catch a frigate at 70% sails close hauled. 

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1 minute ago, Slim McSauce said:

The limiting of chain came with an expectation that repairs would be limited with it, that way a skillfull captain could waste the chain/reapirs of his opponents and have enough of his own to get away. NA could live off 100% even battles, even 1.5x br battles, but it would not last long if every battle was a gank. Ganks, or any scenario where the battle is mostly decided before it is even played, is not good gameplay and is not attractive to gamers looking for a good time.

except that naval action is still alive after 3 years steam beta. Many games are not. Ganking is not a reason players quit. If you're all so against ganking why did noone play legends? Why was it me vs bots? Not you personally :)

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3 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

those 13 knot death stars have cannot catch a frigate at 70% sails close hauled.  

image.png.8ad180bb2f5561a339b1827018d98c0f.png

say again?


Edit:
I know that is the most slanted example that could be found short of speed stacking the Vic and making the Indef as slow as possible with mods.
But still the fact that this is possible tells me something is quite wrong with ship speeds overall

Edited by Tom Farseer
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erm.. yes it is?

even a 4th rate (that is only a 4th because of her carro stack) can be called a frigate. See american frigates (Conny & Co).

Also those 13 knot death stars can still catch and melt any 4th rate if not 5th rates. Still a bit of a problem.
I don't know why someone would build/sail a Live/White Ingermanland or Wapen to begin with. But I still don't think that 1st rates should be able to catch those.

Edited by Tom Farseer

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5 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

except that naval action is still alive after 3 years steam beta. Many games are not. Ganking is not a reason players quit. If you're all so against ganking why did noone play legends? Why was it me vs bots? Not you personally :)

maybe, just maybe it's because legends never launched out of closed alpha. Actually the game was it's biggest during sea trials right? so yeah, point proven.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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1 minute ago, Tom Farseer said:

erm.. yes it is?

even a 4th rate (that is only a 4th because of her carro stack) can be called a frigate. See american frigates (Conny & Co)

american frigates were designed and build as frigates. The indef was not. A teak wo connie could most likely escape that victory close hauled but in my opinion its not fair to compare a fir victory to a wo indef. Teak wo indef could arguable be a better ship than a fir fir victory if you put carros on her. Its a strong ship. A fir fir victory can be intercepted by any speed designed frigate and then sank by a bellona. Ganking goes both ways.....

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6 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

 A fir fir victory can be intercepted by any speed designed frigate and then sank by a bellona. Ganking goes both ways.....

That's not a gank because the BR is pretty much equal in that fight. Even so a teak/wo indef is cremated by a victory in about 2 minutes.

Edited by Slim McSauce

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5 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

maybe, just maybe it's because legends never launched out of closed alpha. Actually the game was it's biggest during sea trials right? so yeah, point proven.

Every game is biggest at release but hey I guess there are exceptions to the rule im sure you will point out. 

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1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

Every game is biggest at release but hey I guess there are exceptions to the rule im sure you will point out. 

yeah, good games tend to grow. Warframe for example.

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Just now, Slim McSauce said:

yeah, good games tend to grow. Warframe for example.

Yeah thats what I want. A free to play version like legends. Im sure we would not be having this discussion then. Streamers can actually stream the game and not get sniped. Thats the reason streamers played sea trials. 

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Just now, HachiRoku said:

Yeah thats what I want. A free to play version like legends. Im sure we would not be having this discussion then. Streamers can actually stream the game and not get sniped. Thats the reason streamers played sea trials. 

All the people who bought the game in early 2016 bought it with the expection that it was going to be an arena based naval combat sim (as close to a naval combat sim there is)
I'd bet money none of them at the time expected the game to drop the arena and go MMO. Hell the first gameplay I saw of NA was the seatrials by sidestrafe I think, that was well after the game had went MMO. I would not blame anyone for wanting the arena over the MMO, the ambition and understanding of player psychology to create the necessary short/long/medium goals, interwoven content and fleshed out game world required to make an MMO is a lot to chew. I mean you can just look at how vicious the developement cycle is going round and round trying to find some place to settle can take a toll on people.

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Just now, Slim McSauce said:

All the people who bought the game in early 2016 bought it with the expection that it was going to be an arena based naval combat sim (as close to a naval combat sim there is)
I'd bet money none of them at the time expected the game to drop the arena and go MMO. Hell the first gameplay I saw of NA was the seatrials by sidestrafe I think, that was well after the game had went MMO. I would not blame anyone for wanting the arena over the MMO, the ambition and understanding of player psychology to create the necessary short/long/medium goals, interwoven content and fleshed out game world required to make an MMO is a lot to chew. I mean you can just look at how vicious the developement cycle is going round and round trying to find some place to settle can take a toll on people.

Naval action was already a sandbox in early 2016. They did not expect it to go from arena to mmo. They asked for it. The development cycle of this game is not that bad to be fair because its a one of a kind game. Most other games already belong to a certain genre so its far easier to design from the start. This game is not. What can you compare naval action to? I for one am glad the devs take their time. I am in no hurry. Naval Action 2 will be a far easier game to make once this game is finished. 

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3 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

What can you compare naval action to?

MegaWars3.  This is the game that compares most favorably to that classic.  That's why I like it so much

.

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The developement is literal hell and it's comparable to dayz, Years of circle back developement to be released in a non-finished state, unless by some miracle we get raids, musketry, pirate mechanics and clan warfare before release, the OW is just as empty as it's always been and has never been a game but a buffer to the game.

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2 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

Ganking is not a reason players quit.

Maybe not? Maybe not because of ganking itself but because of the way it happens?

I've been in a large map and persistent world flightsim MMO where there are no instances and 750 players sharing the same time and space, so to speak. There was tons of ganking there in the form of base capture raids and any size of player groups flying together. Because of the shared time and space anyone would almost always be able to choose if they want to engage or disengage based on what they see around them. You certainly could find yourself in a gank but then you have made a conscious decision not to avoid it, again based on what your can see around you.

We can't share time and space in NA. One thing is the potential million billion cannonballs the server has to be able to crunch, another thing is the distances of our map combined with the speed of our ships. Technology may allow us to deal with everyone with their cannonballs sharing the same "room" eventually but then there's the time factor. Even if we shrunk our world dramatically the map would be enormous if we shared one instance.

df4457c1a118c12e9a96e3d89cf6d15a.png

It would take some time to plan and execute port captures if this was our shared time and space world, eh? How would we deal with production, hauling and crafting in a 1:1 world with possibly only character teleports?

So we have the tactically and strategically ideal 1:1 world that would make all unfair war tactics make sense.

Then we have our current situation with OW vs. instance that is absolutely necessary to make a big map work. Many of us accept ganks as natural in a wargame, but very few enjoy being tagged by a small and fast craft which can have friends hours, if not days, away but they're still able to teleport on top of us due to lenient RoE. Nevermind playing it smart or roleplaying, you may be tackled by a ship that was there and minutes later killed by a big ship that was just outside visual range and thus 4 hours away. That is purely frustrating and I'd bet substantial money we've lost players to such frustration.

Almost nobody wants to eliminate ganking, it's not about that. Please don't strawman us.

It's about an OW that still tries to find the optimal and most sensible wargame and asymmetric warfare concessions to the OW vs instance conflict. We did it in 2016 and now we have to do it again. It's weird for me, an outspoken arena/Legends fan, to fight for true OW when OW fans want to make OW into a shitty lobby all the while touting that they wouldn't want to play a sucky arena game. I'm quite sure the contradiction in terms is lost on many posters.

Oh, dear! All of this clearly wasn't directed at you, Hachi. @rediii , you're no fool, maybe we can move on forward from "ganks are part of a wargame, jodgi, git gud!"? Pretty , please!

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4 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

All the people who bought the game in early 2016 bought it with the expection that it was going to be an arena based 

Very improbable given the open world was already going under very heavy development in closed testing.

How the hell do you come up with such stuff ?... 🙄

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1 minute ago, Hethwill said:

Very improbable given the open world was already going under very heavy development in closed testing.

How the hell do you come up with such stuff ?... 🙄

because like I said all those videos I watched 4 years back of sidestrafe that got me into the game were sea trials and those videos are still the some of top page with half a million views when you search NA.

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well hopefully I don't have to play your version of a dream NA jodgi :P.

I play other games for that, I play NA for what it currently is.

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12 hours ago, jodgi said:

Maybe not? Maybe not because of ganking itself but because of the way it happens?

I've been in a large map and persistent world flightsim MMO where there are no instances and 750 players sharing the same time and space, so to speak. There was tons of ganking there in the form of base capture raids and any size of player groups flying together. Because of the shared time and space anyone would almost always be able to choose if they want to engage or disengage based on what they see around them. You certainly could find yourself in a gank but then you have made a conscious decision not to avoid it, again based on what your can see around you.

We can't share time and space in NA. One thing is the potential million billion cannonballs the server has to be able to crunch, another thing is the distances of our map combined with the speed of our ships. Technology may allow us to deal with everyone with their cannonballs sharing the same "room" eventually but then there's the time factor. Even if we shrunk our world dramatically the map would be enormous if we shared one instance.

df4457c1a118c12e9a96e3d89cf6d15a.png

It would take some time to plan and execute port captures if this was our shared time and space world, eh? How would we deal with production, hauling and crafting in a 1:1 world with possibly only character teleports?

So we have the tactically and strategically ideal 1:1 world that would make all unfair war tactics make sense.

Then we have our current situation with OW vs. instance that is absolutely necessary to make a big map work. Many of us accept ganks as natural in a wargame, but very few enjoy being tagged by a small and fast craft which can have friends hours, if not days, away but they're still able to teleport on top of us due to lenient RoE. Nevermind playing it smart or roleplaying, you may be tackled by a ship that was there and minutes later killed by a big ship that was just outside visual range and thus 4 hours away. That is purely frustrating and I'd bet substantial money we've lost players to such frustration.

Almost nobody wants to eliminate ganking, it's not about that. Please don't strawman us.

It's about an OW that still tries to find the optimal and most sensible wargame and asymmetric warfare concessions to the OW vs instance conflict. We did it in 2016 and now we have to do it again. It's weird for me, an outspoken arena/Legends fan, to fight for true OW when OW fans want to make OW into a shitty lobby all the while touting that they wouldn't want to play a sucky arena game. I'm quite sure the contradiction in terms is lost on many posters.

Oh, dear! All of this clearly wasn't directed at you, Hachi. @rediii , you're no fool, maybe we can move on forward from "ganks are part of a wargame, jodgi, git gud!"? Pretty , please!

You're right and the only issue I see is revenge ganking. That's the problem with time compression. The higher the open sea speed gets the easier it is. Its the instant messaging that is more of an issue because a ship could arguably leave port at full sail and catch up to a battle. Battles took hours to days so with good wind a revenge gank could work irl. It's the coms more of an issue. I could live with higher speed and longer invisibility timers to make up for that. That been said I hate the current roe more than anything we have had so far. If I attack 2 noobs with higher br I want to be left alone. I already hate that players from other nations can join my side uninvited and really wish I would be allowed to green on green them. I'm not even 100% sure how the roe works but since br is completely broken it doesn't work anyway. 

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13 hours ago, jodgi said:

Then we have our current situation with OW vs. instance that is absolutely necessary to make a big map work. Many of us accept ganks as natural in a wargame, but very few enjoy being tagged by a small and fast craft which can have friends hours, if not days, away but they're still able to teleport on top of us due to lenient RoE. Nevermind playing it smart or roleplaying, you may be tackled by a ship that was there and minutes later killed by a big ship that was just outside visual range and thus 4 hours away. That is purely frustrating and I'd bet substantial money we've lost players to such frustration.

This.  A lot of players have a real problem with this and many solutions have been proposed.  Mine is always "If you can't see the swords when the battle starts, you can't join".  This seems fundamental to me in an OW that uses instances and time compression.  I hate the 20 min timer, of course.

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1 hour ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Mine is always "If you can't see the swords when the battle starts, you can't join".  This seems fundamental to me in an OW that uses instances and time compression.  I hate the 20 min timer, of course.

And I say, yes you can join, BUT you spawn like 10 kilometers far away according to when you joined. I love it when gankers spawn just in front of me or next to me :)

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On 3/14/2019 at 1:02 AM, Slim McSauce said:

because like I said all those videos I watched 4 years back of sidestrafe that got me into the game were sea trials and those videos are still the some of top page with half a million views when you search NA.

You can just search age of sail in google and i think his video comes up sometimes.
Its funny that SStrafe wanted open world so much but later realised that that dream should have stayed unfulfilled.  

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On 3/14/2019 at 12:54 AM, Hethwill said:

Very improbable given the open world was already going under very heavy development in closed testing.

indeed
open world was voted as the main expected feature in 2014, by may 2015 people were sailing the open world without ports and insta teleports that got used to so quickly

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