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ROE BR  

77 members have voted

  1. 1. If the attacker has a lower BR the battle should close after two minutes

    • Yes
      58
    • No
      20


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16 minutes ago, manuva85 said:

why not get 2 minute timers for all combat in ow, or maybe even instant battles without reinforcements in case of lower br atacker.

T_T

 

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16 minutes ago, manuva85 said:

why not get 2 minute timers for all combat in ow, or maybe even instant battles without reinforcements in case of lower br atacker.

 

Of course that is what the rational people want. It is a question if this guy is going to admit we have a broken system or not. If anyone thinks you can't keep a Consitution tagged in a Herc for more than 20 minutes think again.

 

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I wonder how much of this must happen before the low-BR traps problems become bigger than the ostensibly positive effect of "help your friends" 20 min timer?

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The 2min timer did a good balance for people around the battle to join and for others to be excluded from the battle. No trap, you see what might come and join, the skilled player usually has no problem with that.

All this "i want to help my friend" thing is just a question of poor planning. If some wants to fight with his friends, make a battle group and sail together, the 2min timer is no problem then.

For good reason a join-timer was introduced in the game, which is now with this 20min battle timer quite obsolete.

I am perfectly fine with battles among equals to be closed immediately. 

 

Edited by Sea Archer
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10 hours ago, Sea Archer said:

The 2min timer did a good balance for people around the battle to join and for others to be excluded from the battle. No trap, you see what might come and join, the skilled player usually has no problem with that.

All this "i want to help my friend" thing is just a question of poor planning. If some wants to fight with his friends, make a battle group and sail together, the 2min timer is no problem then.

For good reason a join-timer was introduced in the game, which is now with this 20min battle timer quite obsolete.

I am perfectly fine with battles among equals to be closed immediately. 

That's all fine and dandy unless you have to sail two hours just to find a 10 minute fight.  When you're in a group you very often need to set a wide net just to find targets, especially given how scarce players are these days.  Two minutes was always too short.. three-five minutes was a reasonable compromise, but the twenty minute, always open RoE invites bad behavior.

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@admin do you have any comments on this ? As we are now full hardcore pvp mode, most of the voters do not like current ROE.

"If the attacker has a lower BR the battle should close after two minutes or three minutes (as some people voice)"

 

Or I would respect if you say we do not value your opinions but we depend on our DATA and our own decisions. I would total respect that and we would not bother spending our time in forums.

If you value opinions of playes aside from steam ratings and toxicty of people , why not make some in game polls ? or hyperlink in game to website for polls ? So you will get some objective opinions of current active players who do not even visit the forums.

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11 hours ago, Sea Archer said:

The 2min timer did a good balance for people around the battle to join and for others to be excluded from the battle. No trap, you see what might come and join, the skilled player usually has no problem with that.

All this "i want to help my friend" thing is just a question of poor planning. If some wants to fight with his friends, make a battle group and sail together, the 2min timer is no problem then.

For good reason a join-timer was introduced in the game, which is now with this 20min battle timer quite obsolete.

I am perfectly fine with battles among equals to be closed immediately. 

 

The 2 minute timer is a problem, even if you sail together. All these frigate captains and solo hunters think 2 minutes is enough for group activities, it isn't. But these skippers rarely do the group activities so they wouldn't know anyways. The solo hunter in me loves 2 minute timers because if I can lure a single ship upwind of his friends and tag him, they'll never make it into the circle in time, and I'll have an easy mark farm. But the logical side of me...the part of me that helps run group operations knows just how gamey and frustrating that is. Your guy was *right there* with you, and you can do nothing to help him. Some cheeky guy came up and tagged him right under your nose and there is nothing you can do to help. RIP my immersion.

The issue is this: 2 minutes is not always enough for the whole fleet to make it in.  Ever been in a hunting group where you spread out in a net to catch enemies the way @Capitalism says? If you do that, not everyone can make it in.

I think the best option is this: 3 minute join timer for anyone to join, plus if you were in render distance of one of the ships at the tag, you can join the battle, no matter how long it takes you to get to the join circle. If you go into port, you obviously forfeit the opportunity to join. 

 

If, on the other hand, we are to keep this 20 minute timer business, it must take into account "reasonably close BR," --anything between 1.5x BR up or down at the start of the tag means no 20 minute reinforcement timer. Also the issue with everyone timing their clicks at the same time to join a massive fleet into lower side of the battle will have to be resolved as well.

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47 minutes ago, William Death said:

if you were in render distance of one of the ships at the tag, you can join the battle, no matter how long it takes you to get to the join circle. If you go into port, you obviously forfeit the opportunity to join. 

 

THIS IS IT. does not matter 2 or 3 minutes.

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7 hours ago, William Death said:

The 2 minute timer is a problem, even if you sail together. All these frigate captains and solo hunters think 2 minutes is enough for group activities, it isn't. But these skippers rarely do the group activities so they wouldn't know anyways. The solo hunter in me loves 2 minute timers because if I can lure a single ship upwind of his friends and tag him, they'll never make it into the circle in time, and I'll have an easy mark farm. But the logical side of me...the part of me that helps run group operations knows just how gamey and frustrating that is. Your guy was *right there* with you, and you can do nothing to help him. Some cheeky guy came up and tagged him right under your nose and there is nothing you can do to help. RIP my immersion.

The issue is this: 2 minutes is not always enough for the whole fleet to make it in.  Ever been in a hunting group where you spread out in a net to catch enemies the way @Capitalism says? If you do that, not everyone can make it in.

I think the best option is this: 3 minute join timer for anyone to join, plus if you were in render distance of one of the ships at the tag, you can join the battle, no matter how long it takes you to get to the join circle. If you go into port, you obviously forfeit the opportunity to join. 

 

If, on the other hand, we are to keep this 20 minute timer business, it must take into account "reasonably close BR," --anything between 1.5x BR up or down at the start of the tag means no 20 minute reinforcement timer. Also the issue with everyone timing their clicks at the same time to join a massive fleet into lower side of the battle will have to be resolved as well.

Well, you are right, I prefer solo hunting in a frigate, but isn't it the skill of the frigate captain to seperate an enemy ship to fight it on its own?

Like in real life, if a battle group is too spread out, they will never make it all to the battle. Like at Trafalger the Spanish van didn't realy take part.

I still think the 2min timer together with the join timer is the best solution we have right now.

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12 hours ago, William Death said:

All these frigate captains and solo hunters think 2 minutes is enough for group activities, it isn't. But these skippers rarely do the group activities so they wouldn't know anyways

We did wide dragnet small group OW hunting during the year before your forum profile was created and we continued after.

12 hours ago, William Death said:

The solo hunter in me loves 2 minute timers because if I can lure a single ship upwind of his friends and tag him, they'll never make it into the circle in time

Someone lured away from his supporting ships should be fair game. We can't make mechanics to save people from their poor tactical decisions.

12 hours ago, William Death said:

Ever been in a hunting group where you spread out in a net to catch enemies the way @Capitalism says? If you do that, not everyone can make it in.

Yes, at one time I was doing big ship support for Raker frigates who got attacked by Spaniards west of the Upper Antilles. I did not get in and had to sit outside with Kaos while we listened in on TS and heard the other Rakers win the fight even if outnumbered and with lower BR ships. Kaos and I were too far away from our friends as they were attacked and we had no right getting in despite that fact that the battle was open still while we came into render range of it. This is just one of many anecdotes.

12 hours ago, William Death said:

RIP my immersion

There is a difference between your immersion, which should be fed by your cognitive ability to consider space, time, distance and speed, and your emotional desire to smash face regardless.

Quote

 if you were in render distance of one of the ships at the tag, you can join the battle, no matter how long it takes you to get to the join circle.

This is an OW ≠ instance compromise I think would work as well as the flat 2 min timer. It stands in contrast to your random 3 min join timer suggestion as that could give you a 90 second OW teleport ability depending on wind.

With OW and instances, it's always going to be some sort of compromise.

 

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12 hours ago, William Death said:

Also the issue with everyone timing their clicks at the same time to join a massive fleet into lower side of the battle will have to be resolved as well.

Agreed!

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Taht woud stop a lot of Ganks

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BR limits and balancing is not an immersive experience--i cant join the battle but I have to sit and watch enemy join? How is that in any way realistic? Just set a timer to join and be done with it- trying to make "fair" battles is not the way we like to play this game-- if you have newer players, which we claim we want to help, their only possible advantage is to have numbers.  Just set a timer and be done-- 2:30 is too short and 20 minutes is too long- make it 3 or 4 minutes and we can learn to  play by those rules. Stop over-correcting things. please. 

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I'm afraid we have to live with this 20 min timer thing for a long while still. There is this idea that it makes people happy to be able to get into fights to help their friends or even out the sides. True OW is set aside in order to enable big fights; This is the intention.

While I think most players will accept the possibility that their ganks may be turned into even fights or even counter-ganks I'm not so sure the ability to tackle people with fast and low BR ships, or luring people into fights like Ferdinand describes, will go down so well over time. It had clear and measurable negative effects on OW before EA release with similar flat timers. What is intended to enable big and snowballing fights is at the same time perfect tools for tricking and griefing, we'll have to see how the public opinion is affected depending on how players choose to use the tools given... again.

5 minutes ago, Meraun said:

Taht woud stop a lot of Ganks

What, specifically?

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2- 3 min join timer is best ROE we can have, have had but who wants sensible sane ideas these days.. in fact I've no idea why I'm wasting my time to write this may as well suggest it to me 18 month old son for the use it will do....

 

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13 hours ago, jodgi said:

We did wide dragnet small group OW hunting during the year before your forum profile was created and we continued after.

Someone lured away from his supporting ships should be fair game. We can't make mechanics to save people from their poor tactical decisions.

Yes, at one time I was doing big ship support for Raker frigates who got attacked by Spaniards west of the Upper Antilles. I did not get in and had to sit outside with Kaos while we listened in on TS and heard the other Rakers win the fight even if outnumbered and with lower BR ships. Kaos and I were too far away from our friends as they were attacked and we had no right getting in despite that fact that the battle was open still while we came into render range of it. This is just one of many anecdotes.

There is a difference between your immersion, which should be fed by your cognitive ability to consider space, time, distance and speed, and your emotional desire to smash face regardless.

This is an OW ≠ instance compromise I think would work as well as the flat 2 min timer. It stands in contrast to your random 3 min join timer suggestion as that could give you a 90 second OW teleport ability depending on wind.

With OW and instances, it's always going to be some sort of compromise.

 

Ok, but again (ignoring other timers for the moment), what is wrong with "if within render distance = can join" ROE? If that can be implemented, then what you see is what you get.

My reasoning for the three minute timer is so that if someone is loading into OW from port they'll have time to join. Call it "don't attack near a port if you think their could be enemies hiding around the head of the island/weighing anchor in port" or something like that, for immersion purposes ;)

I'm not sure I understand the "90 second OW teleport ability." You mean jumping out of port to join? See above. Its gamey...but if you only attack enemies near your home ports you don't have to worry about them jumping in. And if you attack near enemy ports or free ports you might be sailing into a trap. Subject to the requirements of the service, acceptable risk and all that. With 2 minute cannot join timer applied when you set sail from port....you're not going to have time to press teleport to port, load the new port, jump on a ship, press sail, load the OW, and make it to the battle in time. The 1/10 times that you do get to do that....kudos for fast button mashing? I don't know. Never bothered me because I avoid tagging near ports where I think my enemy might jump out and join.

Or did you mean ships just over the horizon, waiting to warp into the battle at 2:30s after battle start? Yeah that happens. Again it never bothered me too much, and was honestly fun setting up traps for revenge fleets. (Revenge fleet lured out by solo ship, tags, counter-revenge gank fleet warps in, creating large battle with diverse ship mixture). But if it truly becomes a big issue, then all that has to be done is reduce the regular timer from 3 to 2 minutes. But by all means, keep the render distance join mechanic, as it makes sense no matter what.

Basically:

Is it truly better if you and I and the 87 others who sometimes hunt solo/small group are happy to catch a ship 2 minutes and 9 seconds upwind of his friends, and wreck him in the 1v1 while his friends who were right there with him angrily sit outside the instance that closed just before they could click enter? Or is it better to have join timers work so that ALL ships that were in the vicinity and see the battle start can take part in it? 

I lean toward the latter; no matter how much I prefer the easy safety and escape options provided by the former when I'm hunting alone. And if big fleets ganking the lone hunter with the 3 minute timer on top of the draw distance timer is too much of a problem, then the timer could be lowered to 2 minutes + render distance ships. 

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What's wrong with an indefinitely open battle? People keep wanting to slide the "battle entrance" timer just to suit them.

Here are the only two sides to this arguments:

  1. Shorten it so the gankers are safe from being out ganked....or
  2. Lengthen it so friends can help friends out gank the gankers.

Screw it all and leave it open until the battle is done either by one side coming out victorious or the 1hr 30min end of battle timer is over and then people just start again on the survivors.

As far as I'm concerned, Capital zones should force attackers to be in the join circle or get left out and the battle should remain open indefinitely for the defender. IMHO, this is what sealclubbers deserve....if you don't like it then stop hunting newb's capitals like they've been doing every day since the last patch. And outside these CZs all battles should remain open forever for both sides until the battle is finished.

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On 3/29/2019 at 10:42 AM, Mr. Doran said:

@admin

 

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Is my future running away from a speed-fit corvette so I don't get tagged and then have speed-fit THIRD RATES join 19 minutes later?

Total vote count atm is 57. Why are you pushing the devs to make a decision on only 60 people and exclude (currently) 400 others (...or possibly thousands of others when game is released)?

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30 minutes ago, van der Decken said:

Total vote count atm is 57. Why are you pushing the devs to make a decision on only 60 people and exclude (currently) 400 others (...or possibly thousands of others when game is released)?

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You're sending me some mixed signals man. Are we still on irony day or did that expire mid-night GMT?

 

I guess you don't believe in polling at all then, huh? It is obviously true that a sample size closer to 1:1 is going to yield a distribution closer to the real result but that does not mean a poll of, in this case, a pretty random sample cannot give a reasonable expectation of what the distribution is. Do I need a poll to point out the devs that Cartegena is completely broken? Do I need a poll to point out the demasting balance is a total joke?

Poll or not, there is no logical reason you should be able to attack someone in a low BR tackler so your friends well beyond the horizon can join. If we are going by the logic that a low BR tackler can keep an instance open for 20 minutes we might as well just keep all instances open for 20 minutes. You would drastically speed up the population decay rate by doing that instead. An instances open 20 minutes under any circumstance is just inviting nothing but pure ganking.  

 

42 minutes ago, van der Decken said:

What's wrong with an indefinitely open battle? People keep wanting to slide the "battle entrance" timer just to suit them.

Here are the only two sides to this arguments:

  1. Shorten it so the gankers are safe from being out ganked....or
  2. Lengthen it so friends can help friends out gank the gankers.

Screw it all and leave it open until the battle is done either by one side coming out victorious or the 1hr 30min end of battle timer is over and then people just start again on the survivors.

As far as I'm concerned, Capital zones should force attackers to be in the join circle or get left out and the battle should remain open indefinitely for the defender. IMHO, this is what sealclubbers deserve....if you don't like it then stop hunting newb's capitals like they've been doing every day since the last patch. And outside these CZs all battles should remain open forever for both sides until the battle is finished.

 

This has nothing to do with capital zones by the way. I don't think most people care whatever autistic ROE is present around them. As for the rest, again, not sure if you are just lol'ing around or not. 

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ROE is trash-- locked out of a battle and watching enemies join -- is the opposite of immersion.  Why would you not be able to pile into a battle right in front of your capitol port?  this is by far the worst decision yet by the Devs.  

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I told it once and I didn't change my mind - all timers should be random.

So - NO!

Edited by HamBlower

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8 hours ago, William Death said:

Ok, but again (ignoring other timers for the moment), what is wrong with "if within render distance = can join" ROE? If that can be implemented, then what you see is what you get.

To me that seems to be one of the best compromises we can strike between OW and instances. It's been suggested and discussed many times and at length, so I suspect there is some technical challenges tied to it. Oh, and I hope you mean "if within render range AT MOMENT OF TAG = can join"? This kind of RoE would in effect be a fluid 90-(around)180 sec join timer, depending on wind.

8 hours ago, William Death said:

if someone is loading into OW from port they'll have time to join

I do NOT approve.

8 hours ago, William Death said:

Or did you mean ships just over the horizon, waiting to warp into the battle at 2:30s after battle start? Yeah that happens. Again it never bothered me too much

Yes, that's what I meant. It bothers me because it breaks the time, distance and speed immersion for me. It also bothers me because you can't make sound tactical decisions based on what you see around you. Last time we tried it bothered many players because it taught people to not initiate anything because you could not know what the other guys had hidden in a far off port or behind landmass hours or days away in OW time/space. If people like this uncertainty this time around and it makes people play the game and PvP more we're stuck with this non-OW OW play.

9 hours ago, William Death said:

Never bothered me because I avoid tagging near ports where I think my enemy might jump out and join.

See? It's ok that it doesn't bother you but the fact that it makes you avoid stuff is why it went bad with long timers in the past. We'll have to see how long it takes for people to learn to "avoid" taking initiative. Maybe the new OW crowd won't mind walking into traps?

Because of the current feature freeze I don't think the team will try out a brand new visibility RoE. 

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23 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Oh, and I hope you mean "if within render range AT MOMENT OF TAG = can join"? This kind of RoE would in effect be a fluid 90-(around)180 sec join timer, depending on wind.

We tested that with the big circle, twice. Once during closed and another after open EA.

 

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8 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

We tested that with the big circle, twice. Once during closed and another after open EA.

 

Yes, but there are significant differences between big circle and render range join.

The big circle sucked in a million billion bots...

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9 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Yes, but there are significant differences between big circle and render range join.

The big circle sucked in a million billion bots...

Okay, then minus the bots. And suddenly everyone will be happy !?

Highly doubt it 😁

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