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Anolytic

RvR Importance - a mile too far (15 Combat Medals for L'Ocean permit?)

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First of all, I see this game taking many steps in the right direction lately, and I am an actual fan of the new damage model. It just needs tweaking - quite a lot (as expected, nothing wrong with that).

But I see some steps in the wrong direction. Some changes I do not like.

A reminder:

Quote

If you want people to get to pvp fast you have to give players an option to recover losses fast. 

On 8/15/2017 at 11:29 AM, admin said:
On 8/15/2017 at 11:24 AM, Anolytic said:

Players should be able to build whatever ship they want if they can gather the resources and gold. Clans that cooperate well should be able to easily and quickly replace their lost ships from their reserves.

amen

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1. Combat Medals.

I know that you know they need tweaking. I know that you plan to tweak them shortly. Yet since you implemented the way they are in the first place, I feel the need to emphasise just how radically they need to be tweaked.

15 Combat Medals for a L'Ocean permit? 

With the current reward of 30 Combat Medals for 10 1st rate kills that means you need to kill 5 1st rates for each 1st rate you can build. Or you need to spend hours and hours in the Patrol Zones.

On a side-note, the Patrol Zone is itself a problem in itself. With the current imbalance it forces Patrol Zone participation. Because it takes most players weeks to get OW hunting the amount of Combat Medals we you can get in an evening in the patrol zone. Lots of us don't like the gank-fest, cutter-spam (I guess no more since new damage), DLC-ship-spam, artificial events that the Patrol Zones are. Hunting in the general OW should be at least comparably profitable to the Patrol Zone. 

Combat medals are nice if they give some nice, useful, not OP rewards. Paints, maybe special flags, perhaps certain helpful PvP-upgrades (i.e. Navy Mast Bands, Reinforced Bow and Stern, Navy Loodesman), but not RvR-upgrades (i.e Navy Structure, Navy Hull, Combat Carpenter Reports). They could be the only way to access permits for special PvP-ships like the LGV Refit and Pirate Frigate. And it would be fine if Ship Notes (Bellona, L'Hermione, etc) were only purchaseable for Combat Medals.

Combat Mark access to Permits for RvR-ships is a recipe for disaster. First of all, you limit people's access to content, pushing them away from the game. Let's face it, for lots of players the only PvP they enjoy is RvR, just like for lots of people the only PvP they enjoy is OW hunting, either solo or ganks, or both. In RvR lots of players are only ever going to get assists for the most part, and will rarely complete PvP-missions, if they even have room in their mission list to take them, given all the other missions they have to do to be able to grind the resources needed for prosperity, let alone survival. Does it make you a better RvR-player to also do a lot of PvP on the side? Definitely, but not everyone has that interest, and most people that have a life don't have the time to do everything, all the time. If you have to grind for weeks for each PB you can participate in, you're eventually going to give up on RvR.

Look. I would hope that one of your ideas to mediate this issue is to introduce special chest rewards for successful PB participation, and those chests will include as rewards a healthy amount of Combat Medals. But that still does not change my points above. Combat Medals, as a currency, should have a relatively limited, cosmetic/quality-of-life-improving use.

Back to recovery of losses now. This is crucial. When you make woods to build good RvR-ships (I'm leaving aside PvP now), exceedingly hard to get for most people (doubloons, very limited number of spawns), and also make permits for the best RvR-ships available only to the best/most active PvP-players, you kill RvR.

If you make recovery of lost RvR-fleets so hard that it takes weeks, then any nation that looses an RvR-fleet in one battle, will be left open to be robbed of every port they have in the time it takes them to rebuild the entire fleet. Because half your players having the right ships is just as bad as none of them having it. 

If recovery in RvR is not easy, then hegemonies will never change. Those who loose once will give up and not try again. And power will only shift when the current champion clan/nation simply stops playing from boredom with nobody challenging them.

Btw, what happened to Victory Marks? Why are suddenly all the RvR-ships only made with Combat Marks and not with the RvR-participation reward, that is Victory Marks?

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Valid concern. What's wrong with using doubloons (large amount of those) to buy SOL permits? In this way not just PB participants will have access to SOL's, but also anyone who's active in game (OW pvp or rvr, combination pve-pvp, or even lot of pve) Just make sure PVP (in any form) gives highest rewards (xp, doublons, reals). 

Edited by Stilgar
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Today I had a nightmare in which doubloons, combat medals, victory marks and permits were involved.

Edited by Intrepido
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5 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Today I had a nightmare in which doubloons, combat medals. victory marks and permits were involved.

I had too. But in mine, reals were a concern too... (easy to earn, no time to do so)

Edited by Eleazar de Damas
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I am glad we have diversity to choose between many different currencies. It will be so boring to use only one.

Do we have any plans to add block-chain type cryptocurrency?

Edited by Barbarosa
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2 hours ago, Anolytic said:

Recovery of losses now. This is crucial. When you make woods to build good RvR-ships (I'm leaving aside PvP now), exceedingly hard to get for most people (doubloons, very limited number of spawns), and also make permits for the best RvR-ships available only to the best/most active PvP-players, you kill RvR.

If you make recovery of lost RvR-fleets so hard that it takes weeks, then any nation that looses an RvR-fleet in one battle, will be left open to be robbed of every port they have in the time it takes them to rebuild the entire fleet. Because half your players having the right ships is just as bad as none of them having it. 

If recovery in RvR is not easy, then hegemonies will never change. Those who loose once will give up and not try again. And power will only shift when the current champion clan/nation simply stops playing from boredom with nobody challenging them.

 

This ^ 

The new wood system is only going to create divides and widen those divides without any hope of bridging them

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I agree with @Anolytic

what are victory marks used for now....? or are they still around? I personally thought the victory mark > lineship permits was pretty solid and didn't need changing.

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To me it seems like another attempt to fix a problem that there didnt need to be. Right now lineships and heavy frigates are devistating to anything smaller than them. So perhaps this is an ill advised attempt to fix that by limiting the number of lineships? When in reality it is the combat model itself that is the issue.

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So now you’re forced to do PVP missions to create 1st rates that are used for RVR.  RIP.  What an absurdly dumb concept.  When lineships get too expensive to lose, no one sails them and then the game dies for everyone except the steam roll nation.  

Victory marks, permits, combat medals, reals and doubloons.  So sloppy.

PVP only rewards should only give items that are only PVP oriented.  Common sense imo.

 

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8 minutes ago, Socialism said:

So now you’re forced to do PVP missions to create 1st rates that are used for RVR.  RIP.  What an absurdly dumb concept.  When lineships get too expensive to lose, no one sails them and then the game dies for everyone except the steam roll nation.  

Victory marks, permits, combat medals, reals and doubloons.  So sloppy.

PVP only rewards should only give items that are only PVP oriented.  Common sense imo.

 

We had that after the 1st big Wipe. Thats the same s*** now.

The child has got a new name. Thats all

I was taught that one should learn from mistakes ....🤪

Edited by El Patron
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@Anolytic I get your point but why are navy hull and navy structure refit and carpenter combat RvR related upgrades? They are not. They are the typical PvP rewards. All craftable rewards (e.g. Cartagena refit, Copper plating) are typical RvR upgrades because you get them from RvR (and not for RvR). 

Btw. can somebody explain to me the difference between an PvP player and an RvR player in simple words. I do not understand the difference. 

Edited by Sir Loorkon
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30 minutes ago, El Patron said:

We had that after the 1st big Wipe. Thats the same s*** now.

The child has got a new name. Thats all

I was taught that one should learn from mistakes ....🤪

Can’t learn from your mistakes when you ban all the people pointing out when you’ve made them.  

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1 minute ago, Socialism said:

Can’t learn from your mistakes when you ban all the people pointing out when you’ve made them.   

They have banned @Pit Pinsel.

An irreversible mistake no developer would dare to do.

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17 minutes ago, Barbarosa said:

They have banned @Pit Pinsel.

An irreversible mistake no developer would dare to do.

They banned a lot of people.  

nobody is allowed to share his opinion. 

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19 minutes ago, El Patron said:

They banned a lot of people.  

nobody is allowed to share his opinion. 

Word of advise is to read what you write twice before posting and avoid anything that can be misconstrued as personal or offensive.  Anything that can be mis-read probably will. 

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1 hour ago, Sir Loorkon said:

@Anolytic I get your point but why are navy hull and navy structure refit and carpenter combat RvR related upgrades? They are not. They are the typical PvP rewards. All craftable rewards (e.g. Cartagena refit, Copper plating) are typical RvR upgrades because you get them from RvR (and not for RvR). 

Btw. can somebody explain to me the difference of an PvP player and an RvR player in simple words. I do not understand the difference. 

Best I could do is, Pvpers tend to like spontaneous fights or go out looking for players to kill (much like yourself). RVR players only or prefer should I say, pre planned, organised large scale battles with a more long term result.

Best I can do off the top of my head :)

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3 hours ago, El Patron said:

nobody is allowed to share his opinion.

Sigh, ok... Spot the difference:

"Oh, no! Devs! This feature doesn't work properly, it's breaks that thing and I don't like that"

"OMG! Are you insane?! How lazy can you be to not fix this, like, yesterday! You are literally Hitler!"

One of those gets you banned, not both.

So tiring with all these martyrs throwing themselves on the bonfire.

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6 hours ago, jodgi said:

Sigh, ok... Spot the difference:

"Oh, no! Devs! This feature doesn't work properly, it's breaks that thing and I don't like that"

"OMG! Are you insane?! How lazy can you be to not fix this, like, yesterday! You are literally Hitler!"

..

Still font get it :D

Do we got all RvR changes or are more about to come @admin? Anolytic is maybe right. RvR reward should be tied to RvR activities like portbattles. The lowest accessible rate through OW pvp should be 4rd rate. 

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6 hours ago, jodgi said:

Sigh, ok... Spot the difference:

"Oh, no! Devs! This feature doesn't work properly, it's breaks that thing and I don't like that"

"OMG! Are you insane?! How lazy can you be to not fix this, like, yesterday! You are literally Hitler!"

One of those gets you banned, not both.

So tiring with all these martyrs throwing themselves on the bonfire.

Idk man, people got banned for LotR meme in meme topic about wandering trees. Quite a bit of a overreaction dont u think?

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23 minutes ago, Father of Dragons said:

Idk man, people got banned for LotR meme in meme topic about wandering trees. Quite a bit of a overreaction dont u think?

Did they tell you that? Z4ys' ent meme is still there. Tons of posts are hidden in developer announcement and feedback topics all the time and especially with high traffic after patches. Why? Look at the rules of that section... "Strict no off-topic".

I've been here a very long time. I've NEVER seen anyone get banned for stating their opinion. I suspect some skim the forum rules a bit too fast. People who get banned have ignored at least one warning.

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Btw and on topic; I could do max five duel zone fights, one each day and losing both crappy ship and fight and still get enough medals for a L'Ocean. Ye, I know some people don't like exclusive PvP rewards... It's proven to lead to more... PvP.

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45 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Btw and on topic; I could do max five duel zone fights, one each day and losing both crappy ship and fight and still get enough medals for a L'Ocean. Ye, I know some people don't like exclusive PvP rewards... It's proven to lead to more... PvP.

The medal system I could get on board with if all PvP kills counted, not just through the mission or in the zone. But the new wood system is far too inhibitive for a majority of players. Crappy ships, as you refer to them do not win fights for the average player against ships built from those better woods so getting those wins needed for the medals in the solo zone is made even more unlikely . So it's an issue that would.keep getting bigger and bigger

To sum up: To get the good ship made from the good materials, you need to take an inferior ship made from inferior material and kill the good ship(s) made from the good materials. And with this new model and damage output, the gap between those materials and ships is even more pronounced.

Edited by Neads O'Tune
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The developers might have the intention to make the bigger and better ships rare in the port battles and, after the wipe, in the OW PVP. So that clans and players are FORCED to use ships that are inferior. One way to make it so would be to make them harder to construct (or find or buy).

And the reason why they want to force people to get the medals in PVP MIGHT be that they want to encourage fights between groups of players where it is easier to kill the good ships. Klans would be forced to do portbattles more seldom and pvp more often.

If so, there is a strategy behind the new system. And that system MIGHT work. But it will need some additional incentitives to fight with ships that are less good. And I believe that more than just fights in the zone has to be counted.

 

Edited by Ligatorswe

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Totally agree with OP.

The problem is that artificial currencies are introduced only to enforce a certain player behaviour. Players just don't like to be pushed to do certain things in an open world scenario. This is not good for improving player retention. 

I really hope the devs just do this for testing purposes, and do not consider this a real option for the released game. But honestly, I'm afraid this might not be the case...

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