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Patch 30: Combat and boarding feedback

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29 minutes ago, Aerospace said:

I had a battle at Nassau Solo Zone. 

Herc vs Herc

Both ships alined for perfect broadside start of the battle. Both carro (of course), other ship was unable to put a good broadside. I placed a perfect broadside on him, his all side armour gone, reload shocked. I immediatly turn into him get closer to use my opposite broadside. Another perfect broadside. He is sinking, gg, o7. 

Timer on battle 1:28:15, he is done. He was fir build against my teak, he had carta. I doubt it would change if he was teak. 

It is good Herc is glass cannon now, no more OP. A bit more nerf to what was needed. 

Reference ships, 

Herc 2850 side hp

Suprise 3875 side hp

Cerberus 3605 side hp

I feel overall buff to light frigate hitpoints needed, so battle not over in 3-4 broadsides. 

Now interesting part, 

Niagra 2960

H.Rattle 2637

Le Requin 2841 (plus enormous carro power, becomes a Le Required one more time!) 

Prince 2296

Snow 2261 

*** Very sad to see snow and prince being to weak. 

Prince used to be, only "not paywalled" counter to Le Requin. But not anymore. 

Qestion:

As a owner of Le Required. Stongest 6th rate of this patch among 6th rates. Has more than Double carronade firepower to other 6th rates excluding Niagra, has double crew numbers to almost all 6th rates. 

Why would I use any other 6th rate ship in 6th rate SOLO PVP Zone? 

This is an issue of DPM disparity which is exaggerated for some overgunned ships 
Hercules mixed gun DPM was 1700 in the old model and 3400 in the new - doubling damage output. This is causing too much importance on first shot, to the point that second shot does not matter. 
We are working on balancing this

Here is the rationale
Gun captains used powder to control the penetration power (1/2 1/4 1/3 charge). Ideal charge was that provided enough power to generate as much splinters as possible (just enough to be penetrating the hull), overcharging caused nice accurate holes on both sides (low damage to hull). Undercharging did not penetrate. 
Carronades were short and used low powder thus generated a lot of splinters and were easy to reload and maintain.

But their damage was definitely not equal to the long gun damage. As energy was not enough. 

As a result
Carronades should not generate so much damage but should generate as much splinters as before. + some tweaks to HP on lower level ships must be applied.

Overall penetration should be lowered across all guns slightly. And HP for some low ships should be rebalanced. 
The gap between carronades, mediums and longs should be lower. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

What about the short battles people are experiencing?

Anything being done to fix it? 

He is explaining that in the post. Carronades will be rebalanced.

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20 hours ago, Mr. Doran said:

If demasting was limited to very close range IE 50-75 meters for most frigates you would be able to defend your mast with sailing and sailing alone. If you do not enter demasting range you will not be demasted. In order to make such an implementation a reality gear needs to be addressed. The current gear situation around masts is lunacy and no high-skill cap model for demasting can be had with it. 

50-75 meters would be much better. Players here on the forum has been asking 250m or something equally easy multiple times.

Notice that masts have now 3 parts. You would need to define distance for each part.

Another issue is that stern raking was made too good. If you fail to position yourself you can always mast rake. If someone succeeds to defend her stern, raker can always hit the masts. It is too easy.

Raking damage should be set so that if you get a clean nice broadside to side hull you take it. Instead the damage is always set so that players don't take these clean broadsides but instead they simply sail after stern in hope that the situation will change soon. There is a raker playstyle that makes players to do nothing else except follow that stern to rake. They may get that clean broadside but they don't take it. This is were the game has been broken most of the time.

Damage should be set so that you will take a clean broadside when you get one. If you get in raking position, then good, you will take it. Never you should skip a clean good broadside.

Another issue that has haunted the game has been that ships have been too maneuverable, especially when compared to rake damage.

They should also already increase horizontal dispersion that has been asked many times. It was already seen that everyone can start mast sniping with some practice. Not something that only good players can do.

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3 hours ago, admin said:

This is an issue of DPM disparity which is exaggerated for some overgunned ships 
Hercules mixed gun DPM was 1700 in the old model and 3400 in the new - doubling damage output. This is causing too much importance on first shot, to the point that second shot does not matter. 
We are working on balancing this

Here is the rationale
Gun captains used powder to control the penetration power (1/2 1/4 1/3 charge). Ideal charge was that provided enough power to generate as much splinters as possible (just enough to be penetrating the hull), overcharging caused nice accurate holes on both sides (low damage to hull). Undercharging did not penetrate. 
Carronades were short and used low powder thus generated a lot of splinters and were easy to reload and maintain.

But their damage was definitely not equal to the long gun damage. As energy was not enough. 

As a result
Carronades should not generate so much damage but should generate as much splinters as before. + some tweaks to HP on lower level ships must be applied.

Overall penetration should be lowered across all guns slightly. And HP for some low ships should be rebalanced. 
The gap between carronades, mediums and longs should be lower. 

 

Definitely what I like to hear.

Along with nerf to lineship speeds and we look to be having a really good 2nd part to our patch 30.

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3 hours ago, admin said:

Overall penetration should be lowered across all guns slightly. And HP for some low ships should be rebalanced. 
The gap between carronades, mediums and longs should be lower. 

Even being a carronade lover, I agree with that balance, for getting more fun and enjoyable battles.

Just suggesting:

  • An overall reduction of "base damage" for longs, mediums and carros. At least, overall 30% less (then, rebalancing carronades, because as now, a well-aimed carronade mast rake from a Xebec to an Hermione can dismast the Hermione). I succeed in doing two mast on the first carro broadside I shot on the test bed. This is too powerfull, Le Requin is not a gun-power ruler.
  • I have an historical data, I must retreive my source (but if someone can help giving data, WELCOME!). (@Surcouf, @LeBoiteux, @Baptiste Gallouédec our French historical databases, HELP!) A French 1st rate received a 1000 shot punishment (probably several sizes of guns) without sinking. I propose this as a base. 1000 shots is 8 Ocean broadsides. Quick enough to limit repairs, slow enough to allow strategic repositionning.  And player who would like to go faster would have to use double loads and come to close range. :):):) 

In another hand, but this is a huge change, to be discussed... Historically, I am not sure that long guns can be used on ship sides (just because of the width of hull at battery level, the length of long guns and necessary space to handle it). But here, I am making me so many enemies in the long-gunner-fan-population that I am obliged to say that I'll probably be off Gde Anse this evening... If you whish to shut me up! :) 

Edited by Eleazar de Damas

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So now if I never win a PVP combat because the ships of grouped up PVPers are all OP with the PVP rewards that are no longer doubloon purchasable, then my DLC ship will never be OP like theirs and never get combat medals ever to buy OP upgrades.  Vicious circle and why players quit.

 

 

Edited by angriff

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9 minutes ago, angriff said:

So now if I never win a PVP combat because the ships of grouped up PVPers are all OP with the PVP rewards that are no longer doubloon purchasable, then my DLC ship will never be OP like theirs and never get combat medals ever to buy OP upgrades.  Vicious circle and why players quit.

Though they may not quit the game then only quit the combat which frustrates the PVPers to put in more player concentrators and even bigger advantages.  I mean isnt that why Loodsman is a PVP reward so PVPrs with heavy OP ships can tag fast trading players?

 

Edited by angriff

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15 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

A bit of an exaggeration but it is true that combat medals should also be given when doing assists (like pvp marks before).

This all or nothing (kill/not kill) is not going to be good. 

Admiralty rewards for kills and assists will come in the due time (maybe next week)

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@admin watching ultimate admiral: age of sail its quite immersive watching marines firing muskets at close range targets, when is this coming to naval action? Because it really should

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@admin Demasted by a Belle Poule in FOUR hello kittying hits?! 

And you really consider this damage model to be a success and the saviour of the game?

Tell me why anyone should continue to spend up to an hour or more looking for a fight that is ended by four hello kittying shots?

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3 minutes ago, Neads O'Tune said:

Demasted by a Belle Poule in FOUR hello kittying hits?! 

With what guns ? What charge ? What shot ? From what distance ? Where did the shots hit ?

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52 minutes ago, admin said:

Admiralty rewards for kills and assists will come in the due time (maybe next week)

"Will come in time" "maybe" all words or phrases used to deflect

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1 minute ago, Hethwill said:

With what guns ? Carros

What charge ? Define "charge"

What shot ? It's a carro, but that could mean anything, let's face it there is so much inconsistency right now

From what distance ? 250 at least

Where did the shots hit ? As tempting as it is to put a smart arse answer here. The masts?

 

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Okay, Carronades at 250m.

I suppose they hit the LOWER section and not the middle nor the top, taking by your "smart arse" comment.

What caliber of carronade ?

 

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1 minute ago, Hethwill said:

Okay, Carronades at 250m.

Did they hit the Low, middle or top section ?

 

The bottom, as denoted by the complete loss of the mast. The mast was already falling before the player was even a third of the way through the broadside

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Yes, can carry from this weight up to this weight :) 

Look, you either give ALL the correct data or the post is "lost" because it lacks all information.

It is like reporting a "bug". Without info there's zero chance to even start to verifiy it.

So yeah, talk about smartarse attitude. Reckon one needs to be smart first...

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5 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Yes, can carry from this weight up to this weight :) 

Look, you either give ALL the correct data or the post is "lost" because it lacks all information.

It is like reporting a "bug". Without info there's zero chance to even start to verifiy it.

So yeah, talk about smartarse attitude. Reckon one needs to be smart first...

I am not privvy to the loadouts of the enemy, i can only go on what I have available to me, and that is what I have given. 

Not sure how much experience you have but when someone sinks your ship and you ask what they are using you usually get one of two responses: 

"HAHAHAHAHAHA NOOB!!!!!!!"

Or a load of made up bullshit

 

The point still stands that 3 minutes battles are NOT good game-play especially if it takes an hour to find said battles.

Additionally, if you don't have the prepared perk then it is pointless going into battle it seems now.

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14 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Yes, can carry from this weight up to this weight :) 

Look, you either give ALL the correct data or the post is "lost" because it lacks all information.

It is like reporting a "bug". Without info there's zero chance to even start to verifiy it.

So yeah, talk about smartarse attitude. Reckon one needs to be smart first...

So... unless the enemy was beyond stupid it was either 24 (top deck) or 32 pd carros (main deck).
I know the post you refer lacked info (It's creator is prone to rage-y reactions sometimes :P) but a little thinking can go along way.

The point was quite clear to see in my opinion:
@Neads O'Tune is of the opinion that a bell poule with a fairly standard loadout killed a mast at medium-ish range with 4 shots is.. well... problematic, to put it in a safenotogetbanned diplomatic way. Regardless of the ship he himself was sailing (that info is actually really the one missing :ph34r:).
I share that opinion. Damage across the board needs to be nerfed a bit. Carronade damage particularly so.

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3 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

Damage across the board needs to be nerfed a bit. Carronade damage particularly so.

yeah, and I'm not against bigger guns doing more damage - it's just that damage all seems high.

Lineships absolutely should have a devastating broadsides to 5th rates and smaller
Smalls ships shouldn't be fighting lineships without some serious tactics and maneuvers

but I think we could all benefit with lowering damage from all cannons across the board. I believe the Admin has already stated that next patch we should expect changes and so far, I like all the adjustments that they plan to do.

Edited by Teutonic
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2 hours ago, Hethwill said:

With what guns ? What charge ? What shot ? From what distance ? Where did the shots hit ?

Probably carronades that are OP 

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@admin please don't nerf damages!

if you have to nerf something, nerf only carro penetration above 100mt...all other guns are ok!!

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10 hours ago, admin said:

This is an issue of DPM disparity which is exaggerated for some overgunned ships 
Hercules mixed gun DPM was 1700 in the old model and 3400 in the new - doubling damage output. This is causing too much importance on first shot, to the point that second shot does not matter. 
We are working on balancing this

Here is the rationale
Gun captains used powder to control the penetration power (1/2 1/4 1/3 charge). Ideal charge was that provided enough power to generate as much splinters as possible (just enough to be penetrating the hull), overcharging caused nice accurate holes on both sides (low damage to hull). Undercharging did not penetrate. 
Carronades were short and used low powder thus generated a lot of splinters and were easy to reload and maintain.

But their damage was definitely not equal to the long gun damage. As energy was not enough. 

As a result
Carronades should not generate so much damage but should generate as much splinters as before. + some tweaks to HP on lower level ships must be applied.

Overall penetration should be lowered across all guns slightly. And HP for some low ships should be rebalanced. 
The gap between carronades, mediums and longs should be lower. 

 

Please don't nerf carronade damage too much or you will remove one of the reasons small ships carried them. They allowed a ship-sloop or brig (Rattlesnake/Niagara) to carry much more weight of shot than their size would allow at the expense of range. Some larger ships had them on the QD for close range work and loaded them with shot and grape to clear the enemy decks. Several thoughts:

1. A carronade should have a similar damage output to a long gun of the same caliber. Reduce medium range accuracy and damage.

2. Limit availability to ships that used them especially on main gun decks - ie; large frigates, LeRequin (that also balances LRQ with other 6th rates). 

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Capturable ships should reward you more than sinking one. If you go into battle and cap a ship, you should get more reals and xp for that than just by sinking the enemy ship. I hope this comes into the game as soon as possible, it will also give purpose for capping ships.

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