Do we promote too fast...?

[Norfolk nChance]

Do we promote too fast...?

Grab a glass of red, you need it...

Backdrop...

Last week saw some very interesting threads posted. This is one below...

https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/28422-what-happened-to-the-2500-players/

In all fairness to the community it is worth reading through all the views. Unlike most this doesn’t deteriorate into the usual “This is my view...” blinkered repeats back n forth. It gives many different and clear insights into their view of this game. Even @admin makes a very good point also worth the read.

The Content Argument

This is mentioned a few times, but what does it really mean? Players stating there is little if anything to do. In fact, every player is focused now onto the same goals to reach. Unless that PC is Hardcore it will prove near impossible to achieve from a Newbie or casual standpoint.

How can Naval Action receive a BAD review due to lack of content from players having plus 250hours invested in the game saying it lacks content? Even one with 13k hours invested?

The comment by @Wraith... “this is inherently the problem when you build a game around players being content, rather than having content attract and retain players, who generate additional content, etc.”

This to me answers the 2,500 down to a few 100 players we have now. The Players actually provided the content as I’ve mentioned like East v West, the Care Bear Alliance or rogues like [SORRY]. For Good or Bad it actually was player driven content.

That in itself is not enough, and needs NPC Game Content that then drives the people driven one in this Light Sandbox we work in.

Fun Factor

Unfortunately, @victor as mentioned this a few times in the past...

“The reason of the decline is simple: the game used to be funny ... Is it's no longer a game, basically ... it's a work? Games shall be funny and NA it's not”

He’s NOT talking about grind path either.

What’s Changed...?

This Question by @Christendom I love and have asked it myself a few times in the past...

 “We're 3+ years into development and it feels like the game is maybe less ready for release than when I picked it up almost 3 years ago.  I'm sure I'm not alone in this opinion.  In that time frame we've changed ROE, RVR and even a new crafting system....but it still feels like the same tired old stuff without any imaginative increase in content...”

Now I must agree, the game is definitely an improvement from three years ago, but three years’ worth of time taken? How much more does the combat model need tweaking or even overhauling God forbid?

The Core Game play

Then we see @koltes post breaking it down into four areas...

To keep players interest game should have targeted the following making the below interesting and entertaining as well as challenging:

a.) Character progression;

b.) Recreational activities;

c.) Competitive activities;

d.) End game content

He goes on like others to mention the Economy, skills and clan Nation mechanics all known views.

 

@jodgi regret comment

“I kinda regret this topic now. There has been some... discussion, but it has attracted so many posters that just came here to dump a turd smelling of discontent.

I touched on this in my previous post, but it's cringy to witness these besserwissers swooping in giving, often contradictory, "advice".

I'm not mad or riled up or anything... just... dejected” he said

This I disagree with and is a great thread full of insight. No, it wasn’t a dump on the game at all and you shouldn’t feel dejected one bit. This entire thread made me think a lot about the game as a whole.

With all due respect to my peers and @admin/Dev’s there was nothing NEW here that I hadn’t heard or read about before. No new revelation or solutions either.

 

Norfolk Reviews

I gave my opinion first regarding my reluctance to return to the game even as a fan boy and hardcore player. Then to the Content problem and backstory needed for PvP and PvE to sit on. The NPC Nation Overlay and Campaign arc thread mission ideas suggested. Again, nothing I haven’t said before.

It led me back to thinking as in the OP 2,500 days and my memories. Then the compare reviews of our two peers EvE and WoWs. We have a much better sail and combat model than either, and have had it for years as @Christendom suggested.

So, what is the difference...?  Is EvE better... WoWs what’s the long term attraction...?

https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26423-idea-norfolk-compares-apples-to-oranges-to-avoid-a-lemon/

this I believe shows even without the resources of the other two Game-Labs NA-OW still delivers. Both @admin and crew have done a remarkable job. The difference highlighted is client connectivity. This my main arguments with the NA-L concept.

The other main high light was the newbie treatment and tutorials.

 

Idea: The Slow Promotion Model Concept

Question: How long did it take your Main Player Character (MPC) to gain rank 10 Rear-Admiral or equivalent from rank1. From a BASIC Cutter, how long did it take you to get into your very first SoL Victory, L’O or Santi...? Take your ego away and answer honestly.

Now, if you’ve played EvE or WoWs... EvE how long before you got into your first BASIC Capital ship? In WoWs how long did it take before you could participate in the RANK tournaments?

These levels in all three games whether PvP or PvE are really the point of the game’s Ultimate promotion level stages or top out. The Games, each from this point on take a different view to the player. I’d suggest of the three NA first, WoW second and EvE third...

Rank Promotion Built on Time as well as Performance

Imagine a Promotion level built on XP like now but also with a time element. The like XP in Craft and Rank is also Logarithmic in scale. Getting longer between levels. Think of ALT promotions now... How would this impact their use? You’d need to invest real time in them just like your MPC.

Within each level certain Skills and skill books must be also achieved and found. The skill or book once activated, takes time to produce its 100% statistical effect as you use it.

Career Direction

Once again, Crafting or Piracy or Port Ownership or Clan Leader. In the same way, unique skills and the different grade qualities layered both on time and xp. A Fleet Admiral skill book cannot be used or developed by a Rank 5 level player... and so on.

Campaign Activity

Completing NPC Nation campaigns solo, co-op and pvp gain these entry levels. Make up requiring mix fleet compositions to succeed a specific mission.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Campaigns

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Scenarios

 

The Output Effect

Here now each player has a different short- and medium-term goal to that of the general Hardcore topped out player. Focus, training and community interaction is needed at all levels, the rewards equally become more relevant to that individual player.

 

Summary

It seems like I’m introducing even more grind. However, what its designed to do is understand what each level or rank of promotion is. Building the content with layering campaigns and limited skill knowledge defines each rank, making them more important rather than just a crew hurdle.

Do you remember the difference between Rank 6 and 7...?

Using this system will get much more activity in content that’s fun and not grind drive.

Just an idea

 

Norfolk

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Norfolk nChance

[Xavanux]

I just logged in after two years and there's one thing that killed the game for everyone: when posting any form of criticism, the criticizers were hit with insults. 

 

Apparently, it seems the game has gone P2W with the DLC (I quit before the game even had the new ui, dlc, and stuff like that so it's all new to me).

 

I just wish they had more PVE content/missions. Similar to Pirates of the Burning Sea (still best pirate ship mmo in my opinion).

 

The devs just needed to add more content instead of catering to the PVP players who played the game like it was a second job.

[Sir Loorkon]

Why should we have that extended grind for meaningless PvE ranks? We do not need the PvE ranks. We should have PvP ranks because this is a wargame. All ships should come with all book slots open, too. Grinding slots or rank is not content in my personal opinion. It's a waste of time.

[Norfolk nChance]

@Sir Loorkon

You couldn’t have said it better “meaningless…”

Each rank should be seen as an achievement and not a CREW hurdle. The Skill limiter again just the thought is giving an understanding as to what they do.

This is not an easy task, but will provide meaningful content.

 

NnC

[Slim McSauce]

Yes promotion is too fast, no you don't really remember the jump from rank 6 to 7 in terms of what you did to get there. It's nothing, the lower ranks are almost something you go back to, you hardly learn in them, that doesn't start until 5th and up and from 5th and up it's a grind plain and simple. Yes there is too little content, you can't disregard the feeling of regret of dumping thousands of hours into this game, people put thousands of hours in many other games and outside of the raw amount of time put into it, you have what you spent in those hours which in NA has always been a sort of 50:50 sailing and combat, and that's generous, you're often sailing for much longer than you are in combat or doing something you'd consider "fun" unless you have a good netflix series on the other screen afk sailing isn't that much fun.

What people miss about the lack of content argument is that it's undeniable and raids is the prime example of this. Type raids in the search bar and see how many results pop up, some from even the admin himself making promise of adding them in the future, more later down the line to say it's not possible or feasible to add raids how we want, or that they're no longer planned. RVR is a 1 dice game, 6 combinations. Raids would make it a 2 dice game, 36 combinations.  For as long as we've played, we've waited for a spontaneous aspect of RVR which doesn't need heavy planning, that you can assemble a group for and go do right away. This isn't asking more than the basics here, RVR sure needs that to stay dynamic and fresh. A sandbox without toys is a desert, and an ocean without depth is a puddle. The lack of content is what should be there.

[AeRoTR]

Yes ranks are too easy and meaningless. Example real admiral in 1st rate does not know how to tack in port battle. Rear admiral only knows fighting against npc, rear admiral has no pvp experience. 

After some lower ranks, promotion can be tied to some conditions pvp/rvr/pve/craft/production/trade etc. What was the requirements to be promoted in navy at those times, I guess it was not easy. So ranks should mean something. 

Ship slots to be unlocked  very accelerated if you have already unlocked a same class ship. Other way or current system, is a brain dead, meaningless grind. 

I always find 6th rates to be real tutorial of NA, but being skipped too fast. So sad to see light 5th rates ruling shallow waters nowadays, complications of bad/cancer dlc. 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by AeRoTR

[van Veen]

28 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

A sandbox without toys is a desert

+1

[La bouche]

1 hour ago, Xavanux said:

players who played the game like it was a second job.

No, they play as their only job in Life 🤦🏻‍♂️

[van Veen]

I'd like to see a career based development and character progression. Add a reputation system, so your character grows with accomplished achievements. Bind your max possible navy rank to your reputation. Reputation should not be a one-way street. Misconduct is sanctioned. This can work together wonderfully with dynamic nations. Imagine a rear admiral going rouge, being demoted so he choses the pirate way of life. These are the stories a sandbox game should tell. 

[victor]

 

@Norfolk nChance

Unfortunately there is a problem we discussed in the past that has not been touched here: any change of the game (even more if it's a new content) needs the "M" (money) factor.

Some money has been used by devs to change the game in a way that made the game less fun (in my opinion). Now that money has gone and to revert things more money should be gathered .. so the problem is ... where Game Labs think they could get it?

DLCs?

Chinese faction?

Another sale on steam?

An investor? 

 

[Norfolk nChance]

@Wraith said

Seriously though, the game purchase model without a subscription, and the mechanics-breaking DLCs have hamstrung the game and its development in important ways as well.

I think is correct, but and correct me if wrong... only EvE has succeeded in the sub model. The important thing to look at is the NA-F or Franchise. Once NA-OW is launched, this platform is perfect for the NA-L arena style game with Premium Account grind built in. This FREE look into NA subs the whole franchise.

@van Veen

Yeah wow, I like that... even demotions for bad behavior instead of straight Nation ejection.

Practically, though that’s a big idea on its own. Love it.

 

@victor

Unfortunately, I can’t disagree with you. Could @Ink code something like this to test. Very basic

Rank 6 PvE mission. Limit entry 3x PC Co-Op

Tiny steps though to test. Link missions into a small campaign. These are optional of course but structured in such a way to deliver the right skill book at the right time. The missions solo, PvE, Co-Op, PvP cover crafting, trade missions and mix fleet needs...

Start with just three tasks, one opens two, opens three. One is solo, two is Co-Op. The final is a small port raid that needs at least 1x Mortar Brig to succeed.

Rewards... cash, books, entry to 5^th rate progression...

 

 

NnC

 

[qw569😳]

Your idea require wipe.

How many current players are ready to start the game from the beginning?

2 hours ago, Norfolk nChance said:

Just an idea

Better ask Snoop Dogg to stream Naval Action

[Teutonic]

@qw569 i think there are more players than you may expect that would be willing to play "wiped" at release...the problem is the players who aren't part of an organized group. The organized group would collectively be able to succeed quickly even if everything was wiped and still they could encourage folks to come back.

I think @Norfolk nChance that the next patch has a lot of good changes coming...but the 'updated' damage model part is going to over shadow all of it. With the concerns from many about how it will play I am worried that the good portions of the patch will be meaningless due to the possible trainwreck coming. I hope to be wrong though.

Thinking on what is expected:

1. Trade missions

2. Trade profit/cost based on distance from ports/regions.

3. BR adjustment on ships

4. Some more UI improvements, mainly in battle

5. Battle RoE - side with less BR stays open

To me these seem like some good things to look forward too....if we are still getting them all.

 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

But how would they sell more alts and forger DLCs?  

Seriously though, the game purchase model without a subscription, and the mechanics-breaking DLCs have hamstrung the game and its development in important ways as well.

They could do it so buying DLC's unlocks more content for the game? I.E instead of all flags are unlocked with a DLC you but the dlc and do certain achievements to unlock the usage of the flags

[Christoph]

PvP and RVR is Content 

Grinding slots is very boring. 

The same with long afk sailing trips for repairs. Old system was better.  We need repairs in everyport  and more tows .

More tows = more action 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Christoph

[Teutonic]

1 hour ago, Christoph said:

PvP and RVR is Content 

Grinding slots is very boring. 

The same with long afk sailing trips for repairs. Old system was better.  We need repairs in everyport  and more tows .

More tows = more action 

I'd literally just be satisfied with a delivery system again.

I'd pay to have things moved even if it took longer for them to get to where i wanted them to go all for the purpose of not having to do it myself and to be able to do other things instead.

[Aquillas]

Yes promotion is way too fast. Players unable to manual sailing can be seen in Bellonas