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2 minutes ago, Farrago said:

Players do have to buy the resources either with the costs of farming or cost of time sailing to where they are available or both. I’m not arguing that the system is inflationary. I’m saying that if the AI buys the resources, it actually does something with them such as keep the AI population of your ports happy and healthy. And if the transaction does not take place, there are negative consequences. Those who produce and deliver the beans and bullets become heroes in the struggle as well.

true. I guess it could work well if it was resources the player could not produce. The gold that goes into buildings is not really alot compared to the outcome of missions. 

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5 minutes ago, jodgi said:

Subscribed. "Content" is one of the big mysteries to me.

Apparently its not lack of content that is an issue. Its the current content that is. If people made that clear I would have never needed this thread....

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 Some are happy with PvP content alone.

 Some look for content as a direction for stuff to do, or to "fluff" out the content for what they do... trade, explore or whatever.

 Some look for a deeper level to owning ports and RvR - for example ability to put gold into ports to build new defences or improve their port in some way.

etc....

 

 Content should just provide alternatives that players can work with or ignore depending on their play style i think.  Just extra options to act as gold sinks, extra depth beyond PvP/RvR for the sake of it.  Problem is though like most things you ask 30 players what content would be good and get 30 different replies :D .

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14 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The "content" that most people are asking for is the glue between the combat events.  And it's that which the dev's have failed spectacularly at providing. The best MMO's are those that give the players the tools to create that glue themselves. And there are a handful of really great models out there that the dev's could have modeled the OW side of the game and its economy after.. but like most things in the game they decided to recreate a square wheel where someone else's round one would have worked. And instead of admitting their mistake they decide to shave a side off and go with a triangle instead of refining their current model to have a few more sides that approximates the round one.

Whats the glue between the combat events? We agree RVR sucks(I have been quite loud about that), Admin already said they are working on it to my knowledge. We agree economy is not working. Whats your point? 

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10 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

 Not one of the people said OMG look how cool this trade route is. This game at its very core is combat. Its limited marketing focuses on combat and not trading. Shit, I was sold a lobby based game with no trading at all. 

You are using what the game is make claims about what it ideally should be. Of course nobody got excited about a trading route. There are no trading routes... What trade route?

"This one here is a cool trade route, you sail in a straight line from generic_port_17 with generic_resource_7_profit_200%_hold_weight_x to generic_port_35 and earn credits 7.3% faster than this other path."

Risk is equal, navigational difficulty is equal... Thats not a trade route, that is a mathematical equation!

The game is at its very core nothing but combat because it has been put together that way, not because it has to be. People want content that isn't just the same brand of PVP. Yes, you can get some new or improved content by improving PVP, but ultimately very few games are 100% PVP RVR based with 0 relevant and enjoyable PVE type content. As I said, if the open world has no open world type features like other games, what is the point? A 2D navigation system or just straight up matchmaking system could achieve that type of gameplay much more efficiently. We've had innumerable patches working on PVP, and almost none working on what happens in between the pvp or in place of it. PVP isn't working because carrying the weight of the entire playerbase without any support from other content. PVP development is going in circles trying to find an impossibly good and universally enjoyable meta that just cannot exist. An entire game based around sailing around an empty and barren open world looking for players to fight. I enjoyed sea trials combat more.

As for the marketing... https://www.navalaction.com/#open-world

"build, trade" "navigate" as main subsections. This isn't a lobby based game with no trading. What would be the point of having an open world whatsoever if every effort is then made to turn said open world into a de facto lobby system? Just use lobbies then!

 

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17 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Whats the glue between the combat events?

Man, that's a million individual answers question and I'll try to look it from a hobby perspective, which it is. Can't possibly cover them all.

For some the chain of combat after combat is simply what is needed, without any ulterior motivation other than... that fight. One fight ends, another starts. Their expectations meet immediate and as fast as possible get into combat. These are the guys that play the games for the game, not the models. They go for what it works and what wins. IF NA would be a tabletop tournament they would be scouring for "winning army lists" and no matter what, that's what they take. They would love an Arena mode.

For others is the string of events, what did result from winning or losing that particular combat. Like a branch campaign. They love writing lore for their captains, for the ships. They would love a Career based mode.

For others can be simply a way to enjoy the models and how cool they move and the smoke and the sparkles. These are the guys that love the "fluff" above the "crutch", to put it in a tabletop sense. The game is great if it is backed up by a rich lore. They essentially can enjoy the open seas but don't see them trapped in an arena.

Then you have the entire sect that wants nothing to do with "violent" encounters and simply wants to do "peaceful tasks" that at the same time have the same elegant feeling that the combat aficionados desire.

A chain of trade, without any motivation other than each day a new route. Each trip a new small fortume. Completely uninterested by all the rest.

Others wish to see their trade or crafting as a strong supporter of the ongoing campaign. Like they would be the ground crew in a flight simulator, the unseen guys that keep the aces flying.

And to end, the guys that just dig the models and the sailing around.

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1 minute ago, Hethwill said:

Man, that's a million individual answers question and I'll try to look it from a hobby perspective, which it is. 

For some the chain of combat after combat is simply what is needed, without any ulterior motivation other than... that fight. One fight ends, another starts. Their expectations meet immediate and as fast as possible get into combat.

For others is the string of events, what did result from winning or losing that particular combat. Like a branch campaign.

For others can be simply a way to enjoy the models and how cool they move and the smoke and the sparkles.

Then you have the entire sect that wants nothing to do with "violent" encounters and simply wants to do "peaceful tasks" that at the same time have the same elegant feeling that the combat aficionados desire.

A chain of trade, without any motivation other than each day a new route. Each trip a new small fortume. Completely uninterested by all the rest.

Others wish to see their trade or crafting as a strong supporter of the ongoing campaign. Like they would be the ground crew in a flight simulator, the unseen guys that keep the aces flying.

And to end, the guys that just dig the models and the sailing around.

well said. For me the glue between the battles would be a loading screen to the next battle :p 

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Edited the post a bit. Might make sense for some.

Thing is.... each game is what each game is. And not all games are for everyone, obviously.

But, Naval Action being in a laboratory state and under development, means the devs can do whatever they see fit with ALL the testing we have done so far.

Never ever ever look to any present state as final.

Only on Release we might say, okay, this is it. And even then many games change.

 

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1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

Whats the glue between the combat events? We agree RVR sucks(I have been quite loud about that), Admin already said they are working on it to my knowledge. We agree economy is not working. Whats your point? 

Seriously, could you be more obtuse?  I'm not going to go back through thousands of posts from the last three years and provide every piece of suggested content that I and others have proposed to help eke something viable for new and casual players out of the game.  I've already provided you with very concrete categories of content that are missing in my earlier posts in this thread, it's not my fault you choose to ignore them. 🙄

Your point is very clear in that you feel like the game is just about ships and combat.  And that would be fine if we did away with the OW and made a lobby game that people wanted to play. But the fact of the matter is that the huge majority of people who bought NA don't want to play that game (see Legends' fate again). SO.. I'll turn that back around on you: What's your point? What's the point of this thread?

I've given you a very general and adaptable definition of "content" which in my words is the shit that holds the game together between combat instances.  You claim that it's all about sailing, well, if we start there then sure, sailing is boring af. There are thousands of ideas out there that could make sailing less of a grind and give people something to do. There have been hundreds of quality of life features that have been proposed to ease that grind and provide "content" other than point your ship in a direction and alt-tab over to Netflix for a couple hours (e.g. navigation tools, access to crafting and econ while at sea, exploration and gathering tasks, random events, etc. etc. etc.). I just don't understand what it is that you're looking for out of this thread other than to bitch and moan that we aren't all happy with the thin broth we're being fed, and falling over ourselves being thrilled that we're continually asked to test the same shit we've already tested a thousand times before, and found it wanting the last 999 times.

I mean... there's an ENTIRE forum section devoted to suggesting "content," the vast majority of it just goes ignored and uncommented on let alone implemented by developers. Which is their prerogative but don't say that the ideas about that "glue" aren't out there because I and many others have been throwing them out there for years.

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Just now, Wraith said:

Seriously, could you be more obtuse?  I'm not going to go back through thousands of posts from the last three years and provide every piece of suggested content that I and others have proposed to help eke something viable for new and casual players out of the game.  I've already provided you with very concrete categories of content that are missing in my earlier posts in this thread, it's not my fault you choose to ignore them🙄

Your point is very clear in that you feel like the game is just about ships and combat.  And that would be fine if we did away with the OW and made a lobby game that people wanted to play. But the fact of the matter is that the huge majority of people who bought NA don't want to play that game (see Legends' fate again). SO.. I'll turn that back around on you: What's your point? What's the point of this thread?

I've given you a very general and adaptable definition of "content" which in my words is the shit that holds the game together between combat instances.  You claim that it's all about sailing, well, if we start there then sure, sailing is boring af. There are thousands of ideas out there that could make sailing less of a grind and give people something to do. There have been hundreds of quality of life features that have been proposed to ease that grind and provide "content" other than point your ship in a direction and alt-tab over to Netflix for a couple hours (e.g. navigation tools, access to crafting and econ while at sea, exploration and gathering tasks, random events, etc. etc. etc.). I just don't understand what it is that you're looking for out of this thread other than to bitch and moan that we aren't all happy with the thin broth we're being fed, and falling over ourselves being thrilled that we're continually asked to test the same shit we've already tested a thousand times before, and found it wanting the last 999 times.

I mean... there's an ENTIRE forum section devoted to suggesting "content," the vast majority of it just goes ignored and uncommented on let alone implemented by developers. Which is their prerogative but don't say that the ideas about that "glue" aren't out there because I and many others have been throwing them out there for years.

Yeah, You are basically saying that existing mechanics that are not designed well are a lack of content. Content in games is generally considered new additions and NOT fixing existing ones. Were you ever part of a commuity that gives feedback to a developer? Do you know that it is impossible that 3 devs can listen to the vast majority of people right. 

Legends Failed because a 3 man developer cannot make 2 games at the same time. I believe legends was going to be free to play also. A good idea. Btw. Legends never failed because it never was a game. It was a idea the devs had and never really cared about. 

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I love fluff with solid crutch. Also love the models. But i'm easy and I hate metas.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Yeah, You are basically saying that existing mechanics that are not designed well are a lack of content.

No he isn't! He so totally isn't that its not even funny!

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1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

Yeah, You are basically saying that existing mechanics that are not designed well are a lack of content. Content in games is generally considered new additions and NOT fixing existing ones. Were you ever part of a commuity that gives feedback to a developer? Do you know that it is impossible that 3 devs can listen to the vast majority of people right. 

Legends Failed because a 3 man developer cannot make 2 games at the same time. I believe legends was going to be free to play also. A good idea. Btw. Legends never failed because it never was a game. It was a idea the devs had and never really cared about. 

Where did I equate content with mechanics?  These are fundamentally different game areas and you're putting words in my mouth. Mechanics like combat models and RoE are a completely different issue than stuff to do, and the motivations for doing it. 

And most games that I play I engage with the community in some way or another and provide feedback to the developers when that avenue exists.  And the treatment from developers that we as testers receive is by far worse in NA than any other community I've engaged in. And I think you only need to look at the Steam Reviews to confirm that many players, many of whom with 1000s of hours in game, feel the same way.

Not all ideas are created equal and I wasn't claiming that all of those suggestions are worth considering. But as "testers," it is clear that the ideas that gain traction with the developers are usually from a very small and narrowly focused group of players and play styles within this community, and most of those changes that have ever been tested have not resulted in new or better content that facilitates new/casual player attraction and retention.

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I've watched years of discussion, suggestions, requests and nagging about "content". This content is advertised as something extremely crucial to recruiting and retaining players. Out of all these important things I've never seen any mention of anything I would enjoy. I've concluded I'm insane.

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34 minutes ago, jodgi said:

I've watched years of discussion, suggestions, requests and nagging about "content". This content is advertised as something extremely crucial to recruiting and retaining players. Out of all these important things I've never seen any mention of anything I would enjoy. I've concluded I'm insane.

So what would you enjoy? What would you consider to be content? There must be something you do enjoy!

Edited by Capt Aerobane

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1 hour ago, Capt Aerobane said:

So what would you enjoy? What would you consider to be content? There must be something you do enjoy!

It's funny that all these "players = content" / "game is what you make it" folks don't really seem to be playing the game all that much.  When it comes down to it, the game bores them and they're off playing farming simulator.  If only they created content inside the game with the same ardent desire that they defend it on the forums.  

Good OW MMOs provide their players with the tools to make "players = content" work.  NA does not do this.  There are only so many ways to make sinking the same boring AI that sails in circles enjoyable.  

RVR, which used to be one of the primary content generation aspects of the game has more or less been turned into small 10-15 man battles on each side with minimal screening.  2 years ago they were huge multi-nation events where you'd have 50 people in the battle and another 50+ outside screening in most areas of the map.  
 

Edited by Socialism
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6 minutes ago, Socialism said:

It's funny that all these "players = content" / "game is what you make it" folks don't really seem to be playing the game all that much.  When it comes down to it, the game bores them and they're off playing farming simulator.  If only they created content inside the game with the same ardent desire that they defend it on the forums.  

Good OW MMOs provide their players with the tools to make "players = content" work.  NA does not do this.  There are only so many ways to make sinking the same boring AI that sails in circles enjoyable.  

RVR, which used to be one of the primary content generation aspects of the game has more or less been turned into small 10-15 man battles on each side with minimal screening.  2 years ago it they were huge multi-nation events where you'd have 50 people in the battle and another 50+ outside screening in most areas of the map.  
 

I don't mean to attack @jodgi, I am genuinely curious what parts of NA they enjoy and what they would consider good content to add. Everyone wants something different, a game that already exists in such a small niche (age of sail mmo) cannot afford to only pander to one type of player. To implement the kinds of content I would like by sacrificing what people like Jodgi like would achieve nothing.

Edited by Capt Aerobane

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3 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

Not one of the people said OMG look how cool this trade route is. 

I did. Smuggling coal from Pitts Town to KPR, losing trader snows to Pagan Pete or Xemco, hiding behind baracoa waiting for someone to say in nation that they were attacked and using that as a chance to sprint to safety. It was a lot of fun in those early days - trade routes were entirely player driven. The key problem with that specifically is production buildings and trade goods that have no value other than minting money from the AI. 

Delivery missions might provide something like this, though unlikely. The subject of trade has no easy answer. In so far as providing a baseline for content - location dependent missions. What if 10k north of Atwood there was always a mission available which allowed up to 6 5th rates to join, and contained 2 3rd rates, 4 5th rates, and an Indiaman which had a 30% chance of dropping Instructions aux, or something of similar value. Rather than having players scattered around the map farming Ai fleets for drops, they would congregate around specific locations to fight loosely scripted events for a good chance at a book or module they want. Content for casual or pve players, fighting the mission. Content for pvp players, intercepting groups headed to those locations. Reduction in rarity of rare books combats inflation, and provides Reasonable access for casual or new players. 

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1 hour ago, jodgi said:

Out of all these important things I've never seen any mention of anything I would enjoy.

Maybe you're just one of the many people who don't like change, as not all changes are always for the good and it's hard to tell which is what, I find myself  going back on prior stances once the positions themselves are fully scrutinized and don't hold up . Perhaps at the surface you don't believe when all the things that have been asked for that are realistic are implemented, that the bell doesn't ding and all the magic comes together and creates an aura effect boosting all prior aspects like what happens when you get all specific pieces of an armor set in D2. It would be hard to imagine all features fitting together in such a way, what we're use to is when 2 features come in contact, they cause havoc or create an exploit.
I consider myself pretty worldly but I don't think many people can plan out such a thing to a T. There's always unexpected consequences somewhere and that's just something you have to live with and as a game developer, which here we all are in a sense with our opinions. The arise of problem is not meant to hold back, it's suppose to bolster forward progression. Solving a large problem is taking 20 large steps in the direction you want to go. There is no "safe" bet, every suggestion has a downside its whether that downside can be solved in isolation to itself.
It's not what you want NA to be, it's what you dream to be able to do in it. So I guess the question to ask yourself would be, what do you wish you could do in NA that you can't do now? Or what do you wish was within the realm of possibility. For me it would be to attack people in my nation, whether it be piracy or clan warfare. I want the freedom to settle internal conflicts in an ultimate fashion, no arguments over chat, just action. That I think is missing in NA and I would like to see it implemented soon.
 

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1 hour ago, Capt Aerobane said:

So what would you enjoy? What would you consider to be content? There must be something you do enjoy!

I'll answer that without hello kittying around because you seem to ask an honest question. I like that. I'll type it up at first adequate convenience.

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Traders brought me the most content out of this game... I even forced some traders to start running with guns and to find friends to make their runs more successful, they gave me the content I needed for the hunt, and I gave them their content to make their otherwise boorish trade runs real nail biters.

This is good content in Naval Action and encourages those that are willing to, to learn and develop a better escape plan, or a stalwart defense, forcing the hunters then to adapt and become harder fighters, or at least smarter fighters.

The players that decide to throw a tantrum are those that don't embrace learning as well, this is why we need something like a Reinforcements zone mission set. Then these players … or even very new players could get the content they want without risking everything quite as much. Perhaps a set of Reinforcement zone missions only available up to say rank of Captain would suffice.

Now some players can not be ever pleased with anything... You know, those players that say this game sucks because I lost everything after 5 fights instead of saying,... gosh, I really suck and need to get a lot better at this. Some people just want life served to them on a silver platter, well for right now that's not how it is in Naval Action. The more you put into the game... the more you get out of it. And it really is that way with any competitive real time game.

Edited by LIONOFWALES
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8 hours ago, jodgi said:

I've watched years of discussion, suggestions, requests and nagging about "content". This content is advertised as something extremely crucial to recruiting and retaining players. Out of all these important things I've never seen any mention of anything I would enjoy. I've concluded I'm insane.

Instead, you should have concluded that you are part of a minority that feels like "content" is just a big arena for making OS PVP and that would also have answered your question in the other thread: why have 2500 players online (thus the majority) gone away?

Edited by victor
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This game has a combat system but lacks any real content in the open world, it needs an actual economy system where crafting/ modules etc are everywhere and easy to get, POTBS had this done well, its wasnt a hard grind to get a ship and set it up and go have some fun, the ships and modules in game are way to overpriced and some just hard to come by so most people would prefer not to sail out and lose them.

 

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'Content creators' for this game!

One of the worst ideeas in this development. Having to rely on a few players to create content in youre game, a game were one can "program" as much content as the imagination lets you. This created friends that in time created strong nations that nobody dared to challange. (Old Sweden)

Allso the spy/alt problem, the thing that the game tries to avoid by introducing this hard shipslot grind. Wrong choice! 

Then the economy, the most boring part of this game. 

To conclude, this game has been in the hands of a few players and we all have to acomodate their whishes and their agenda, this needs to stop.

Remove content creators power and program that in the game, program some in game ts, or at least some way to organize in game without having to use third party apps that are easily intercepted. Give rewards for pvp actions for both sides, not just for wins. 

And for the love of God, stop this circle development, its crazy!

Edited by do not say dlc
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