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Hullabaloo

In Defence of Ganking

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5 hours ago, staun said:

"We need to protect the elite players"

"The life is simply to hard for a PvP player"

"thats also why after every battle we need to be able to get safe away"

"Well, we can't have a lion sitting in a tree, hunted up there by buffalo's"

Would it help if I but a smiley after each sentence?

But guess you are right. No irony, but lots of sarcasme towards those top players with a kill/death ratio way above the rest, that still cry and whine about how hard there life is.

 

 

 

I think we are on the same page :D

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10 minutes ago, Hullabaloo said:

Yes I can see that. TBF you have opened my eyes a bit to there being some advantages to BR limits.  I think perhaps that ultimately my instinct would be to keep the RoE rules as simple as possible and just let players decide how the battles are balanced. Even if in many cases that might lead to very uneven fights it's better not to have restrictions on what choices players have. 

And I would disagree, if there's one rule to game development it's to protect the players from their own actions, and if there's any certaintly, it's that given the ability, players will optimize any fun out of a game in order to "win", which tends to be all or nothing conditions, meaning everybody will lose, even the winners when the winners have no one to play against. In other terms, things tend to gravitate towards atrophy on their own, which is slowed/reversed with intervention.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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4 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

players will optimize any fun out of a game in order to "win", which tends to be all or nothing conditions, meaning everybody will lose, even the winners when the winners have no one to play against.

 

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It's worse in an online game, I don't have to look you in the face as I roll over you with my fleet. Imagine saying "git gud" or "gg ez" after a tabletop game. Great way to never play another with that person. On another note you have to sort of be aware about the difference between "that guy" and "the guy". Just about everybody wants to be "the guy", the hero for their nation, clan or whatever. Whether that be delusion or ambition, the morals are subjective. To Romans they weren't "that" civilization, they were THE civilization which justifies their action. Alexander the Great didn't think of himself as "ugh, that guy who just had to be good at conquering everything", no he was THE guy, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't the only one who thought that about himself. Point is you're not going to contain anyone's actions or behaviors under "you shouldn't do x, because y" because you already know what they are going to choose. In their minds, for whatever reason justified or not (and there's tons of reasons) they will continue to do what gets them results. If the best results in NA are under large groups of people mowing over small groups because it's easy loot and risk-free XP then of course they're going to choose that over playing any other way. In a sense, not steering people away from that behavior is what makes it so appealing. If the game allows me to do x, y, or z, it must be okay. We see this all the time with certain, ambiguous tactics that cause a lot of controversy for not being legitment. Even something such hiding in battles, to something severe like say abusing alts in battle to block off the enemies ships, as long as it's possible to do these things, then it can be justified, which is enough for people to use it and not care about it's effects on the total experience of everyone within the game.

TL:DR, I'm not smart enough to shorten that down any, you'll just have to read the post :) 

 

Edited by Slim McSauce

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8 hours ago, staun said:

Think you missing the point. Ganking must be stopped. Plain and simple. You might ask why? We need to protect the elite players.(lot of them complain about it, fortunally not all). 

So the solution is to prevent ganking(limited BR). Thats why we need to restrict br, thats also why after every battle we need to be able to get safe away. Reward also should be way higher for PvP. The life is simply to hard for a PvP player.

I gank, get ganked even often than the otherway around. I am fine with that, lots of fun fights. But thats also because I don't care if I win ore lose. But why should other ppl have there game ruined because of gank and revenge fleet. I say nay, nay, nay. Equal Br and eliminate revenge fleets.

@admin, can we get a dislike button?

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Staun forgot to add sarcasm. But then again he thought people would see through the joke...

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10 minutes ago, Galt said:

@admin, can we get a dislike button?

I don't have the button you want, but I have the one you deserve:

9212bc841021a65a935c529439acb7af.png

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Just now, jodgi said:

I don't have the button you want, but I have the one you deserve:

See, I thought the original post was sarcasm, then I saw his reply to the initial thread where he contradicted everything that was put forward. Which changed the context of this first, original post. You can't cover every thing you say in sarcasm and then be surprised when people don't understand when you're being sarcastic. 

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46 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

It's worse in an online game

The only thing that changes is the media in which the game is played. :) Being a cool chap never hurts and only brings benefits, no matter if win or loss.

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I still say BR limits create more problems than they solve. Elite players sailing around in pimped ships with impunity slaughtering everyone who they meet. Legitimate protection of your ports impeded. Mechanics being exploited to bait/trick. New players confused and excluded from battles (and then killed outside). Mathematical calculations required to work out who can enter and who can't! (that's me hello kittyed). Rules, restrictions, limits. It's all too restrictive, exclusive, too complicated, open to exploit and stops legitimate game play. All because of these perceived gankers (I can't even remember the last time I lost a ship in battle I didn't choose to enter btw!). Gankers can be avoided and counter ganked you just have to learn how. As koltes pointed out, the bench mark here is Eve Online. Anyone can engage anyone, no limits, no ptw DLC, utterly ruthless = 15 years, 100s of thousands of players.

 

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beside everything... i hate beeing ganked, but i understand is a part of the game... what i really hate most is the revenge fleet waiting outside when u are griefed by the guy inside who want to make time to Gank you... that's piss me off, and happen because we have F11 GPS.  if you are sailing with a group is fine, and i count as content, but grief in battle to make time for the gank/revenge fleet, is not content at all.

some people dont fight solo when they are cought and OW unless they have numbers... that behavior is killing the game, solo raiding is not fun anymore, most of the time you do 1 way trip, and sail for hours to die in vain...

F11 must be removed, and add Coordinates in MAP GAME, so if you are in battle you are screw and the attacker/defender can escape safety, if you encounter the revenge fleet afterwards is other thing, but at least you have the chance.

this will stop Griefing in battle to make time for the revenge gank outside, and make the battles more even, no matter if you have numbers or not.

Edited by Carlos_Condell
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28 minutes ago, Hullabaloo said:

I still say BR limits create more problems than they solve. Elite players sailing around in pimped ships with impunity slaughtering everyone who they meet. Legitimate protection of your ports impeded. Mechanics being exploited to bait/trick. New players confused and excluded from battles (and then killed outside). Mathematical calculations required to work out who can enter and who can't! (that's me hello kittyed). Rules, restrictions, limits.

Except all of those problems already exist so aren't caused by BR limits. I would much rather face 2 experienced players with pimped ships than 10.
But I'll digress.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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tbh it's not usually new players who gank, it's the veterans from large clans. It's usually the new players that suffer by getting ganked by 10-15 experienced players. Must be great fun torturing players like that, but anyways. 

I never had problems with a gank that was earned by enemy, because you would of got yourself into that position. However, the problem I have is getting ganked by a massive fleet that warped to your battle location to gank you after a long battle. You may have just spent an hour or more to pull of a victory or escape to only have yourself put in a position to be griefed or absolutely massacred by a revenge fleet that had done nothing to earn it.. Revenge fleets are not reasonable in any way, they make this game a living hell to play, unless you have all the time in the world. 

In the end you will end up with these problems 

  • Big clan does a massive gank and get off easily because revenge fleets are removed. 
  • Even BR battle, revenge fleets are still in game, the side with more boats can grief or easily destroy anyone who makes it out of the battle alive

I'd love to test even BR and no revenge fleets to see how it would work. Things always seem to get shot down without us even testing it and I don't know why. It's not like this game has a high population and everything is great. If this can improve the game and make more people play it then great. 

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I often see people being told .... it's a multiplayer game ... join a clan ....

 

but when the solo hunters complain when the rest go hunting them or god forbid get organized before the hunt starts all hell breaks loose.

 

Suffice to say, there are those only interested in their own playstyle and seem to think everything should revolve around what they want to do. I'm firmly with the group, who upon getting attacked, start to learn what's needed to even the odds and chase the lion up the tree.

 

if you want to hunt, prepare to be hunted and harassed yourself in return. Not all of us play the game for 1v1 equal Br only no chance of payback ganks

 

a gank to me is a clear mismatch, not one brought about by some strange algorithm which doesn't make much sense to anybody unless it involves their favourite ship being looked upon favourably.

 

less rules will be more helpful in the long term, less chance of people finding loopholes in them. Whiners always whine about not finding enough prey to splatter , truth is they often cannot find enough disorganized weak ones

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Vizzini said:

if you want to hunt, prepare to be hunted and harassed yourself in return. Not all of us play the game for 1v1 equal Br only no chance of payback ganks

Who does? 2.0x br not 1.0xbr. Don't get it confused. Ganks are possible, just not uncontestable ganks where no game is played only going through the motions of getting killed/killing because the battle was already decided by way of the BR that joined, making the fight impossible to win/lose. Again, with no game being played, the tag was and is the battle in this case where overgank rules all. Some people may prefer to skip over the battle and only play OW but those are the minority, I assure you.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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5 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Safety in numbers is present in limited BR. 2.0x for example, many number can take place in smaller ships. A fleet of new players in 6th rates can take on a 4th rate well within the BR limits to make the battle 1v10, depending on the ships. Where BR limits gets it right is that you can have all the battles you can have now, but each one is substantially improved in quality. Instead of experienced players ganking people 10v1 in their best frigates, they will have to compromise and bring light ships to achieve the same packed battles, with more numbers comes an advantage. To give experienced players the numbers AND the ship advantage is unnecessary, and whatever advantage is gained for new players taking a part in these uncontestable gank fleets is lost when they are on the recieving end of it. A new player will learn more, and arguably have a better time in 6th/7th rates roaming in packs of 10 ganking single frigates/4th rates than they would doing the same in 5th rates where the battle is essentially won/lost from the moment the tag is initiated by way of pure over-gank, which doesn't lend to gameplay. If experienced players want to gang up and hit solo's and small fleets they can do so in a way that doesn't cause a "plague" effect where they wipe out everything in their path.

Also with the new damage ? i haven't been on testbed. But as i understand what In i have read, then them new damage system will bedevastating for ship below your own class. I got that wrong?

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4 hours ago, Galt said:

See, I thought the original post was sarcasm, then I saw his reply to the initial thread where he contradicted everything that was put forward. Which changed the context of this first, original post. You can't cover every thing you say in sarcasm and then be surprised when people don't understand when you're being sarcastic. 

I am fine if ppl don't get it. Not the first time somebody tells me they didn't get it. 

I do think in my response, where I contradicted everything, there is some valid concerns in what I wrote. The question is to get the right balance, so all can have fun. If it was easy to find the right solution, we had it. The question how to balance things so both the casual and the hardcore player both have fun.

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15 minutes ago, staun said:

Also with the new damage ? i haven't been on testbed. But as i understand what In i have read, then them new damage system will bedevastating for ship below your own class. I got that wrong?

New damage model is designed so the Ram Dinarks of the world who sail a lone 1st rate into enemy waters can devastate even more lower class ships that flock out and attack him.  It'll make good streaming I guess, but probably won't be fun for folks who aren't in big ships.    

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5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Ironically, the way @admin desribes it, its also supposed to be for no-skill but high-rank players who want to feel invulnerable just because they ground out enough play time to get into and sail a first rate solo.  This is to protect them from the VCOs, ROVERs, and @William Deaths of the world who would hunt them mercilessly in smaller ships.

In other words, the new damage model hurts everyone who hasn't max-ranked deeply. And most wickedly, once they've rushed to max rank it particularly disadvantages the no-skill and casuals because it will be beyond their means to recover from losing one or two of their precious first rates against said hunters who are now also sailing first rates to hunt with.  Those players will then have zero options available to them (they can't revenge gank in large groups of smaller ships because first rates are completely invulnerable to them). 

What will they do then?  

Quit.

Test something.

You on a that fir fir Victory against William and Christendom in teak Bellonas.

And share the results.

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7 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Heh, all that would prove is that poor Wraith is an average PvP'er against two, much better than average lineship captains. But I guarantee that @Christendom would lose at least a couple masts and @William Death would steal his kill in the end from Chris. 

Joking aside, why would you assume that a trash ship like the Victory is even close to even odds in that scenario (e.g. uneven numbers added to a significant skill gap, and a huge disadvantage in ability to bounce shots and maneuver due to ship quality and build)? This isn't the scenario I've been railing against and you know it.  If it were two players of my skill in Bellonas against @William Death in that Victory then it would most certainly be in his favor. And that's the point.

Currently players can make up for what they lack in skill, mods, books, and gear with numbers. And this is how it should be. Because though a clan like VCO will be sitting on thousands of Victory Marks a couple months after wipe your average casual who grinds his way up to Rear Admiral and maybe gets a few marks a week through buying them will not be able to afford to sail around line ships willy nilly, and the better captains among us will erase them off the map as soon as they do.

Then? They quit.

That will prove some things, just that.

You said everyone (not only the pro players) will sail fir fir first rates because it will be the meta. So lets test your proposed meta. 

 

Thousands of VM in 2 months? 

Do you know you only receive 3 victory marks every month if you have the ownership of around 5 ports (I dont remember the exact number)? Also you assume every VCO member will never lose his first rate and you have a full collection for both RvR/PB/Hostility and PvP.

Please dont exaggerate things. You have some good points but you are seeing everything too dark.

 

Vet captains now in frigates are smashing ships of the line from average and noobs so no much difference from your prediction as they also quit.

There is no much progression atm. The soft spot is right when you can sail a ship like the Hercules. Bellona/constitution/inger will probably take the place of Hercules in the new system.

 

 

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There is no defence for ganking.

It's just a super noobish Dev-decision to not implement a rebuy-system like in Elite Dangerous. There is no effin chance of growing a solid 5.000 players base after release, when just one small mistake in OW cruising causes a total ruin of the player. 

When players know there will be a possibility to get your hard earned ship back after being killed (which way ever) it will lead them to more engagement. Keeping your mind partly on having at least a rebuy amount of money will also improve trading. 

Otherwise, you ultimate Deverals will hello kitty this thing up and years of work will be gone. and your 1000 +- 100 players from Ultimate General wont help, you game design bachelor students.

 

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8 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I think you mean "week," not month.  And every week. VCO between members and alts easily pulls down 180 marks a week and that's with a far reduced load of ports we hold now than we would after the initial gold rush of neutral port flipping. So I don't think amassing a couple thousand victory marks over two months is unrealistic at all do you?

Except that average and new players right now can still get shit done with numbers and frigates, as opposed to having neither numbers or line ships to compete against vets in line ships under the new model!  And it's that much easier right now because PvP is relatively cheap.  Sigh, you should just admit you like to feel like a bad ass by sailing line ships and don't like to get ganked by players in frigates. You're one of those fan boys and that's fine. But things aren't going to change for you when you get ganked by players in line ships, other than the fact that you can't rely on a revenge fleet of frigates manned by average players to help you out.

And even in your most ignorant moment you should be able to see that making life harder for new players in 6th and 7th rates, which Admin seems so proud of, who are trying to rank up by grinding AI and capping some traders, is a recipe for Steam refunds.  It's just dumb.

Woa, 180 marks every week. That is almost the same number of players online as VP now. Must be a thing related to alts, funny how alts always f.uck a mechanic one way or another. 

Still, 1500 vm. 1500/3 =500 first rates. 500/10= 50 first rates per member every 60 days. Almost 1 first rate every day. Yeah it is a bit high but there are easy solutions for that.

What I dont like is seeing a santisima being wrecked by one fir fir Hercules and one Belle poule. And I have seen that happening.

What I dont like is a 32 or a 42pd bouncing in a 5th rate at 150m angled only 30°.

For the record, I only sail SoL in groups and when the group also have SoL. And I have never had another ship in fleet. I highly doubt that personal approach will change with the new damage model. Lineships will still cost me a lot. 

About counter ganks we will see what happens. There are too many variables to take into consideration. Im fairly confident ram dinark will still kill many players but that is quite common for over 3 years now. Those kind of players will always have the upper hand, one way or another. 

 

About your concerns about new players, no one has asked for not being able to take down a ship 1-2 class above your rate. 

Admin should realize the best approach to deal with starting players in the new system and dont make them quit in frustration (specially in pve).

 

And most important, we are here to test and help making the necessary tweaking. Nothing is final. 

 

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2 hours ago, Wraith said:

But this only happens when there is an extreme skill gap. And that's what I really don't understand. Why would anyone want to narrow the ship gap when such an extreme skill gap will just exacerbate the outcomes experienced by the new and casual players?  Can anyone explain that to me?  I feel like everyone magically thinks that you put the less skilled player in a bigger ship and they'll fare better. (HINT: They won't when you're forcing the more skilled player to sail the same ship!)

One of my biggest concerns is that the strange path, which has partly always been there will become more frequent: it is the one where captains try to level up as quickly as possible to get to the biggest ships. When they reach it, they want to discover more, but they completely forgot to learn sailing on that way. It could get even worse because of the possible SOL meta. 

The last few month there were many new players (esp brits, pirates, french, russians and spanish) who roamed the shallows and had lots of PvP, they gathered experience from the scratch. Perfect in my eyes. PvP right from the start, so you know the basics when you get to bigger ships. 

Hopefully I will be wrong, but it really could evolve that players learn pvping in bigger ships, which is harder and especially more expensive/frustrating.

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8 hours ago, Sento de Benimaclet said:

Staun, elite players know how to protect themselves. 

Are you sure of that?

Think over the last 6 month, there have been numbers of demands to change mechanic, imo that would favor the elite players. Often the reason is not based on the belive that it gives a better gameplay, but because it is not fair and make the game unresonable.

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