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Hullabaloo

In Defence of Ganking

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10 minutes ago, Hullabaloo said:

Yes I can see that. TBF you have opened my eyes a bit to there being some advantages to BR limits.  I think perhaps that ultimately my instinct would be to keep the RoE rules as simple as possible and just let players decide how the battles are balanced. Even if in many cases that might lead to very uneven fights it's better not to have restrictions on what choices players have. 

And I would disagree, if there's one rule to game development it's to protect the players from their own actions, and if there's any certaintly, it's that given the ability, players will optimize any fun out of a game in order to "win", which tends to be all or nothing conditions, meaning everybody will lose, even the winners when the winners have no one to play against. In other terms, things tend to gravitate towards atrophy on their own, which is slowed/reversed with intervention.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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4 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

players will optimize any fun out of a game in order to "win", which tends to be all or nothing conditions, meaning everybody will lose, even the winners when the winners have no one to play against.

 

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It's worse in an online game, I don't have to look you in the face as I roll over you with my fleet. Imagine saying "git gud" or "gg ez" after a tabletop game. Great way to never play another with that person. On another note you have to sort of be aware about the difference between "that guy" and "the guy". Just about everybody wants to be "the guy", the hero for their nation, clan or whatever. Whether that be delusion or ambition, the morals are subjective. To Romans they weren't "that" civilization, they were THE civilization which justifies their action. Alexander the Great didn't think of himself as "ugh, that guy who just had to be good at conquering everything", no he was THE guy, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't the only one who thought that about himself. Point is you're not going to contain anyone's actions or behaviors under "you shouldn't do x, because y" because you already know what they are going to choose. In their minds, for whatever reason justified or not (and there's tons of reasons) they will continue to do what gets them results. If the best results in NA are under large groups of people mowing over small groups because it's easy loot and risk-free XP then of course they're going to choose that over playing any other way. In a sense, not steering people away from that behavior is what makes it so appealing. If the game allows me to do x, y, or z, it must be okay. We see this all the time with certain, ambiguous tactics that cause a lot of controversy for not being legitment. Even something such hiding in battles, to something severe like say abusing alts in battle to block off the enemies ships, as long as it's possible to do these things, then it can be justified, which is enough for people to use it and not care about it's effects on the total experience of everyone within the game.

TL:DR, I'm not smart enough to shorten that down any, you'll just have to read the post :) 

 

Edited by Slim McSauce

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8 hours ago, staun said:

Think you missing the point. Ganking must be stopped. Plain and simple. You might ask why? We need to protect the elite players.(lot of them complain about it, fortunally not all). 

So the solution is to prevent ganking(limited BR). Thats why we need to restrict br, thats also why after every battle we need to be able to get safe away. Reward also should be way higher for PvP. The life is simply to hard for a PvP player.

I gank, get ganked even often than the otherway around. I am fine with that, lots of fun fights. But thats also because I don't care if I win ore lose. But why should other ppl have there game ruined because of gank and revenge fleet. I say nay, nay, nay. Equal Br and eliminate revenge fleets.

@admin, can we get a dislike button?

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10 minutes ago, Galt said:

@admin, can we get a dislike button?

I don't have the button you want, but I have the one you deserve:

9212bc841021a65a935c529439acb7af.png

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Just now, jodgi said:

I don't have the button you want, but I have the one you deserve:

See, I thought the original post was sarcasm, then I saw his reply to the initial thread where he contradicted everything that was put forward. Which changed the context of this first, original post. You can't cover every thing you say in sarcasm and then be surprised when people don't understand when you're being sarcastic. 

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46 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

It's worse in an online game

The only thing that changes is the media in which the game is played. :) Being a cool chap never hurts and only brings benefits, no matter if win or loss.

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I still say BR limits create more problems than they solve. Elite players sailing around in pimped ships with impunity slaughtering everyone who they meet. Legitimate protection of your ports impeded. Mechanics being exploited to bait/trick. New players confused and excluded from battles (and then killed outside). Mathematical calculations required to work out who can enter and who can't! (that's me hello kittyed). Rules, restrictions, limits. It's all too restrictive, exclusive, too complicated, open to exploit and stops legitimate game play. All because of these perceived gankers (I can't even remember the last time I lost a ship in battle I didn't choose to enter btw!). Gankers can be avoided and counter ganked you just have to learn how. As koltes pointed out, the bench mark here is Eve Online. Anyone can engage anyone, no limits, no ptw DLC, utterly ruthless = 15 years, 100s of thousands of players.

 

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beside everything... i hate beeing ganked, but i understand is a part of the game... what i really hate most is the revenge fleet waiting outside when u are griefed by the guy inside who want to make time to Gank you... that's piss me off, and happen because we have F11 GPS.  if you are sailing with a group is fine, and i count as content, but grief in battle to make time for the gank/revenge fleet, is not content at all.

some people dont fight solo when they are cought and OW unless they have numbers... that behavior is killing the game, solo raiding is not fun anymore, most of the time you do 1 way trip, and sail for hours to die in vain...

F11 must be removed, and add Coordinates in MAP GAME, so if you are in battle you are screw and the attacker/defender can escape safety, if you encounter the revenge fleet afterwards is other thing, but at least you have the chance.

this will stop Griefing in battle to make time for the revenge gank outside, and make the battles more even, no matter if you have numbers or not.

Edited by Carlos_Condell
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28 minutes ago, Hullabaloo said:

I still say BR limits create more problems than they solve. Elite players sailing around in pimped ships with impunity slaughtering everyone who they meet. Legitimate protection of your ports impeded. Mechanics being exploited to bait/trick. New players confused and excluded from battles (and then killed outside). Mathematical calculations required to work out who can enter and who can't! (that's me hello kittyed). Rules, restrictions, limits.

Except all of those problems already exist so aren't caused by BR limits. I would much rather face 2 experienced players with pimped ships than 10.
But I'll digress.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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tbh it's not usually new players who gank, it's the veterans from large clans. It's usually the new players that suffer by getting ganked by 10-15 experienced players. Must be great fun torturing players like that, but anyways. 

I never had problems with a gank that was earned by enemy, because you would of got yourself into that position. However, the problem I have is getting ganked by a massive fleet that warped to your battle location to gank you after a long battle. You may have just spent an hour or more to pull of a victory or escape to only have yourself put in a position to be griefed or absolutely massacred by a revenge fleet that had done nothing to earn it.. Revenge fleets are not reasonable in any way, they make this game a living hell to play, unless you have all the time in the world. 

In the end you will end up with these problems 

  • Big clan does a massive gank and get off easily because revenge fleets are removed. 
  • Even BR battle, revenge fleets are still in game, the side with more boats can grief or easily destroy anyone who makes it out of the battle alive

I'd love to test even BR and no revenge fleets to see how it would work. Things always seem to get shot down without us even testing it and I don't know why. It's not like this game has a high population and everything is great. If this can improve the game and make more people play it then great. 

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I often see people being told .... it's a multiplayer game ... join a clan ....

 

but when the solo hunters complain when the rest go hunting them or god forbid get organized before the hunt starts all hell breaks loose.

 

Suffice to say, there are those only interested in their own playstyle and seem to think everything should revolve around what they want to do. I'm firmly with the group, who upon getting attacked, start to learn what's needed to even the odds and chase the lion up the tree.

 

if you want to hunt, prepare to be hunted and harassed yourself in return. Not all of us play the game for 1v1 equal Br only no chance of payback ganks

 

a gank to me is a clear mismatch, not one brought about by some strange algorithm which doesn't make much sense to anybody unless it involves their favourite ship being looked upon favourably.

 

less rules will be more helpful in the long term, less chance of people finding loopholes in them. Whiners always whine about not finding enough prey to splatter , truth is they often cannot find enough disorganized weak ones

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Vizzini said:

if you want to hunt, prepare to be hunted and harassed yourself in return. Not all of us play the game for 1v1 equal Br only no chance of payback ganks

Who does? 2.0x br not 1.0xbr. Don't get it confused. Ganks are possible, just not uncontestable ganks where no game is played only going through the motions of getting killed/killing because the battle was already decided by way of the BR that joined, making the fight impossible to win/lose. Again, with no game being played, the tag was and is the battle in this case where overgank rules all. Some people may prefer to skip over the battle and only play OW but those are the minority, I assure you.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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5 hours ago, Slim McSauce said:

Safety in numbers is present in limited BR. 2.0x for example, many number can take place in smaller ships. A fleet of new players in 6th rates can take on a 4th rate well within the BR limits to make the battle 1v10, depending on the ships. Where BR limits gets it right is that you can have all the battles you can have now, but each one is substantially improved in quality. Instead of experienced players ganking people 10v1 in their best frigates, they will have to compromise and bring light ships to achieve the same packed battles, with more numbers comes an advantage. To give experienced players the numbers AND the ship advantage is unnecessary, and whatever advantage is gained for new players taking a part in these uncontestable gank fleets is lost when they are on the recieving end of it. A new player will learn more, and arguably have a better time in 6th/7th rates roaming in packs of 10 ganking single frigates/4th rates than they would doing the same in 5th rates where the battle is essentially won/lost from the moment the tag is initiated by way of pure over-gank, which doesn't lend to gameplay. If experienced players want to gang up and hit solo's and small fleets they can do so in a way that doesn't cause a "plague" effect where they wipe out everything in their path.

Also with the new damage ? i haven't been on testbed. But as i understand what In i have read, then them new damage system will bedevastating for ship below your own class. I got that wrong?

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4 hours ago, Galt said:

See, I thought the original post was sarcasm, then I saw his reply to the initial thread where he contradicted everything that was put forward. Which changed the context of this first, original post. You can't cover every thing you say in sarcasm and then be surprised when people don't understand when you're being sarcastic. 

I am fine if ppl don't get it. Not the first time somebody tells me they didn't get it. 

I do think in my response, where I contradicted everything, there is some valid concerns in what I wrote. The question is to get the right balance, so all can have fun. If it was easy to find the right solution, we had it. The question how to balance things so both the casual and the hardcore player both have fun.

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15 minutes ago, staun said:

Also with the new damage ? i haven't been on testbed. But as i understand what In i have read, then them new damage system will bedevastating for ship below your own class. I got that wrong?

New damage model is designed so the Ram Dinarks of the world who sail a lone 1st rate into enemy waters can devastate even more lower class ships that flock out and attack him.  It'll make good streaming I guess, but probably won't be fun for folks who aren't in big ships.    

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There is no defence for ganking.

It's just a super noobish Dev-decision to not implement a rebuy-system like in Elite Dangerous. There is no effin chance of growing a solid 5.000 players base after release, when just one small mistake in OW cruising causes a total ruin of the player. 

When players know there will be a possibility to get your hard earned ship back after being killed (which way ever) it will lead them to more engagement. Keeping your mind partly on having at least a rebuy amount of money will also improve trading. 

Otherwise, you ultimate Deverals will hello kitty this thing up and years of work will be gone. and your 1000 +- 100 players from Ultimate General wont help, you game design bachelor students.

 

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2 hours ago, Wraith said:

But this only happens when there is an extreme skill gap. And that's what I really don't understand. Why would anyone want to narrow the ship gap when such an extreme skill gap will just exacerbate the outcomes experienced by the new and casual players?  Can anyone explain that to me?  I feel like everyone magically thinks that you put the less skilled player in a bigger ship and they'll fare better. (HINT: They won't when you're forcing the more skilled player to sail the same ship!)

One of my biggest concerns is that the strange path, which has partly always been there will become more frequent: it is the one where captains try to level up as quickly as possible to get to the biggest ships. When they reach it, they want to discover more, but they completely forgot to learn sailing on that way. It could get even worse because of the possible SOL meta. 

The last few month there were many new players (esp brits, pirates, french, russians and spanish) who roamed the shallows and had lots of PvP, they gathered experience from the scratch. Perfect in my eyes. PvP right from the start, so you know the basics when you get to bigger ships. 

Hopefully I will be wrong, but it really could evolve that players learn pvping in bigger ships, which is harder and especially more expensive/frustrating.

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8 hours ago, Sento de Benimaclet said:

Staun, elite players know how to protect themselves. 

Are you sure of that?

Think over the last 6 month, there have been numbers of demands to change mechanic, imo that would favor the elite players. Often the reason is not based on the belive that it gives a better gameplay, but because it is not fair and make the game unresonable.

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3 hours ago, Wraith said:

I hope you're right but his comments about how it's a big challenge to sink a snow in a cutter with the new model, and how much he loves that makes me worried. :(

Admin is a f****** casual, I wouldn't be too worried.

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3 hours ago, staun said:

Think over the last 6 month, there have been numbers of demands to change mechanic, imo that would favor the elite players. Often the reason is not based on the belive that it gives a better gameplay, but because it is not fair and make the game unresonable.

I think that whoever needs protection in the game in any case are the new players. An elite player knows perfectly the mechanics, and if they have to change these, that it is for the benefit of all, not only of them. PvP carries the risk of you meeting a single enemy or being caught by a whole group. For me there is only combat.

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1 hour ago, Intrepido said:

You cant enter the shallows with lineships so that will continue happening.

I also think shallow ships arent the best to learn the most decisive aspects of the naval combat. I have seen many captains ok in shallow ships and quite bad in lineships. Shallow ships are the easiest ones due to speed and maneuverability and you can make decisions in the moment. Lineships works at a different pace, much more tactical approach and having to take always into consideration the wind. More than half of the shallow ships can go downwind and upwind.

Well I would highly doubt that shallow ships are the easiest, as this depends entirely on the player. Everything is faster, which means mistakes get payed off quicker. 

Ofc SOL combat is more of a fleet combat. The point I wanted to make is the following: shallow pvping is intersting but doesn't help you to quickly lvl up the last ranks. If the predicted meta will occur, people will spend less time in the shallows and rather more time grinding. 

If people spend less time in PvP and don't learn it slowly, they will have a harder time learning the difficulties of end game combat. Less basics = longer time for learning advanced stuff. 

It's my assumption, you don't have to agree to it.

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8 hours ago, Intrepido said:

I have seen many captains ok in shallow ships and quite bad in lineships.

You just made that up to support your narrative.

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