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In Defence of Ganking

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In defence of ganking

(Sorry for new topic, I couldn't find the proper thread for this, and sorry its so long, i had a long sail :) )

Firstly, What is Ganking?

1. Sailing around in a large group looking for solo player or smaller group to sink them?
2. Sinking a trader?
3. Sinking a noob?
4. Sinking a solo player 1v1 when you are in a vastly superior ship?
5. Coming out with overwhelming force to sink an enemy fleet running hostility on your Port?
6. Coming out with overwhelming force to sink an enemy ganking fleet?
7. Coming out with overwhelming force to sink an enemy player who has been sinking noobs?

The list is endless..which ones of these are acceptable and which are not?


There is this idea that ganking is 'bad' and so we need new RoE to prevent it. 1.5 BR difference is the most common idea. But what will this achieve? It is going to prevent many of these types of play, some of them (if not most, and indeed maybe all) are perfectly legitimate imo.

Even number 1. The most obvious 'bad' ganking has it's upside: It might be nice to sail around all day in a gold Belle Poule with Poods and Naval clock and carta etc looking for fights and yes its shit if you lose it to a gank. But a good captain is most likely going to beat everyone he meets 1v1 in a 'fair' fight. A very good one will win most if not all fights v 1.5 BR, certainly against the average majority like me. But if 8 reasonably experienced players meet you with some fast ships and a Bellona or two with them, then it doesn't matter how good you are, you might lose that Belle.

So perhaps even this bad ganking is really a good thing in that it places at least some limits on just how much advantage experienced players can wield or at least how often? Atm even the very best players in the very best ships are in danger of losing them. If we start introducing BR limits to somehow make battles 'fairer'. Does this not just makes it nice and snuggly for the best and richest players to sail pimped out ships more often, safe in the knowledge they will nearly always win?

Doesn't it also mean that average players and noobs will nearly always be outclassed when they meet more experienced players or groups of players? (not just in terms of skill but in terms of the ships too (an insurmountable disadvantage, a gank even?).


If you sail to an enemy port and try to attack that nations players or run hostility against them then you should expect a large force to come out and try to prevent you. I think that is acceptable. So if you do that you had better take a really fast ship, and if you do that then your options are reduced and you might find, if you meet another player who has fit for duelling or PVE. (even if he is less experienced), he has a better chance of defending himself?

As others have said, ganking also allows newer players to take part in PvP and be a genuine threat. They can make up for their cheap ships, basic upgrades and inexperience (restrictions on gaming time) through sheer numbers.

Imposing BR limits on OW battles might just widen the gap between the elite few and the more casual majority and ultimately just alienate more people who will quickly learn they will never have the capacity to compete in meaningful PvP where they can win, and they will just quit.

When the new PvP zones are introduced, players who want to, can go there for their fair fights and elite honour duels. 
OW RoE BR restrictions just restrict game play, frustrate players who cant enter a battle and all to fix a non-existent problem. It might also turn the game into a playground for the few rich and experienced players and the majority of new and less active players will get frustrated and leave. Then everyone loses.

There are ways to minimise ganking anyway and a lot of players enjoy the challenge of playing solo and evading gank fleets and do so successfully.

So let them gank I say. 

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Think you missing the point. Ganking must be stopped. Plain and simple. You might ask why? We need to protect the elite players.(lot of them complain about it, fortunally not all). 

So the solution is to prevent ganking(limited BR). Thats why we need to restrict br, thats also why after every battle we need to be able to get safe away. Reward also should be way higher for PvP. The life is simply to hard for a PvP player.

I gank, get ganked even often than the otherway around. I am fine with that, lots of fun fights. But thats also because I don't care if I win ore lose. But why should other ppl have there game ruined because of gank and revenge fleet. I say nay, nay, nay. Equal Br and eliminate revenge fleets.

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Your post is excellent. I think what most players who want to introduce a BR limit on OW (like @Slim McSauce) do not realize is the fact that this would be a mechanic against beginners or average players and gives experienced players a huge advantage.

BR limits should be introduced in the patrol zone, not on OW.

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27 minutes ago, staun said:

Think you missing the point. Ganking must be stopped. Plain and simple. You might ask why? We need to protect the elite players.(lot of them complain about it, fortunally not all). 

So the solution is to prevent ganking(limited BR). Thats why we need to restrict br, thats also why after every battle we need to be able to get safe away. Reward also should be way higher for PvP. The life is simply to hard for a PvP player.

Nice write up

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IMHO "regular" ganking where you get overwhelmed in OW by a much greater force and a realistic 2-3 minute join timer is fine. 

However, getting "warp ganked", be it by having a large fleet join your ongoing battle 25 Minutes into it, or just getting revengefleeted after a battle, seems silly.

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8 hours ago, Hullabaloo said:

In defence of ganking

(Sorry for new topic, I couldn't find the proper thread for this, and sorry its so long, i had a long sail :) )

Firstly, What is Ganking?

1. Sailing around in a large group looking for solo player or smaller group to sink them?
2. Sinking a trader?
3. Sinking a noob?
4. Sinking a solo player 1v1 when you are in a vastly superior ship?
5. Coming out with overwhelming force to sink an enemy fleet running hostility on your Port?
6. Coming out with overwhelming force to sink an enemy ganking fleet?
7. Coming out with overwhelming force to sink an enemy player who has been sinking noobs?

The list is endless..which ones of these are acceptable and which are not?


There is this idea that ganking is 'bad' and so we need new RoE to prevent it. 1.5 BR difference is the most common idea. But what will this achieve? It is going to prevent many of these types of play, some of them (if not most, and indeed maybe all) are perfectly legitimate imo.

Even number 1. The most obvious 'bad' ganking has it's upside: It might be nice to sail around all day in a gold Belle Poule with Poods and Naval clock and carta etc looking for fights and yes its shit if you lose it to a gank. But a good captain is most likely going to beat everyone he meets 1v1 in a 'fair' fight. A very good one will win most if not all fights v 1.5 BR, certainly against the average majority like me. But if 8 reasonably experienced players meet you with some fast ships and a Bellona or two with them, then it doesn't matter how good you are, you might lose that Belle.

Every body have the same chance to get gold ships and put best up grades on it. Why should a deticated player that spend time to get the best be punished, by gank fleets, that don't want to do an effort to get a good ship and upgrades. Why should he risk lose all to gank, by ppl not even trying to get a good ship?

So perhaps even this bad ganking is really a good thing in that it places at least some limits on just how much advantage experienced players can wield or at least how often? Atm even the very best players in the very best ships are in danger of losing them. If we start introducing BR limits to somehow make battles 'fairer'. Does this not just makes it nice and snuggly for the best and richest players to sail pimped out ships more often, safe in the knowledge they will nearly always win?

They have trained and spend hours to get god, All can do that. Again why punish players for go out and get good. All can do that. yes they proberbly never will die. But isen't that fair enough since they have worked hard to be good.

Doesn't it also mean that average players and noobs will nearly always be outclassed when they meet more experienced players or groups of players? (not just in terms of skill but in terms of the ships too (an insurmountable disadvantage, a gank even?).

They will learn more from a equal fight than a gank. Soon they will be the best in the game, then they will enjoy the game and sail in the best.


If you sail to an enemy port and try to attack that nations players or run hostility against them then you should expect a large force to come out and try to prevent you. I think that is acceptable. So if you do that you had better take a really fast ship, and if you do that then your options are reduced and you might find, if you meet another player who has fit for duelling or PVE. (even if he is less experienced), he has a better chance of defending himself?

OW and RvR(Most wait for a change, so let that wait until we see it)are 2 different thing. We want a rather realistic game. Do you think if a raider went in to "home water" there would be a big fleet waiting. Nope, but OW speed and TS/discord makes it possible. Thats why we need mechanic to prevent gank and revenge fleet.

As others have said, ganking also allows newer players to take part in PvP and be a genuine threat. They can make up for their cheap ships, basic upgrades and inexperience (restrictions on gaming time) through sheer numbers.

But they learn nothing in gank. As you said it is cheap ships, so they are easy to replace, Better to give them good and fun fights and not ganks.

Imposing BR limits on OW battles might just widen the gap between the elite few and the more casual majority and ultimately just alienate more people who will quickly learn they will never have the capacity to compete in meaningful PvP where they can win, and they will just quit.

Some ppl will always quit. But what about all those players we lose to gank. Is that any different than those we lose because they simply isen't good enough.

When the new PvP zones are introduced, players who want to, can go there for their fair fights and elite honour duels. 
OW RoE BR restrictions just restrict game play, frustrate players who cant enter a battle and all to fix a non-existent problem. It might also turn the game into a playground for the few rich and experienced players and the majority of new and less active players will get frustrated and leave. Then everyone loses.

Patrole zone is in the game because the OW is broken. Fix OW and we don't need patrolezone. We lose everyday the best players. Do we really want an game thats is dumbed down. Then we can just remove all skill in the game. Maybe get Auto aim and only auto sail.

There are ways to minimise ganking anyway and a lot of players enjoy the challenge of playing solo and evading gank fleets and do so successfully.

Lots of players don't. Thats also includes casual and noobs.

So let them gank I say. 

I say nay, nay, nay.

Debate is always god. Just but another view to your idea's

Edited by staun
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12 minutes ago, admin said:

Nice write up

Well, we can't have a lion sitting in a tree, hunted up there by buffalo's

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9 hours ago, Hullabaloo said:

In defence of ganking

snip

Nailed it. Good post

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45 minutes ago, staun said:

Debate is always god. Just but another view to your idea's

Every body have the same chance to get gold ships and put best up grades on it. Why should a deticated player that spend time to get the best be punished, by gank fleets, that don't want to do an effort to get a good ship and upgrades. Why should he risk lose all to gank, by ppl not even trying to get a good ship?

I see your point as well, but i will take myself as an example: i'am married i got 2 little Kids and a Job  from 07:00am to 06:00pm. i get 1 hour per Day tops, after wife kids are in bed. i do not have the chance or time to grind up taht hard. i want to afford good ships, put in my case (And we have many older Gamers with family's here)  i have to use cheaper ships because i cant replace the Exensive one in a reasonable time.

i'am not saying your wrong, i'm not saying its perfect the way itm is. i'am  just making a point against you saying people are to lazy to get good ships.  Some of us just dont have the time because RL. Wahts your solutions form us?

 

 

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OW relies on unknown quantity beyond the horizon, and unknown quality of the players ( salvo metaplayers which calculate outcomes with mathematical precision and will run when predicted results are below certainty ). No one can predict a gank although one can minimize the risk, by sailing squadron.

But...

Isn't the testbed RoE already "open to weaker side" ? That means initial BR is what is within the Attack circle but joining battle relates to BR difference.

 

 

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1 hour ago, staun said:

We need to protect the elite players.

Is this a joke? I was looking for some irony in your post, but could not find any :D

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1 minute ago, van Veen said:

Is this a joke? I was looking for some irony in your post, but could not find any :D

sinking is (always ) bad for your reputation. :)

gladly i am a noob and always sink.

noobs have the best reputation to be ganked soo... ganking is good for your reputation i guess... :) 

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9 minutes ago, van Veen said:

Is this a joke? I was looking for some irony in your post, but could not find any :D

i've been reading it again and again.. but i think he is serious

Edited by Meraun
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1 hour ago, Meraun said:

Every body have the same chance to get gold ships and put best up grades on it. Why should a deticated player that spend time to get the best be punished, by gank fleets, that don't want to do an effort to get a good ship and upgrades. Why should he risk lose all to gank, by ppl not even trying to get a good ship?

I see your point as well, but i will take myself as an example: i'am married i got 2 little Kids and a Job  from 07:00am to 06:00pm. i get 1 hour per Day tops, after wife kids are in bed. i do not have the chance or time to grind up taht hard. i want to afford good ships, put in my case (And we have many older Gamers with family's here)  i have to use cheaper ships because i cant replace the Exensive one in a reasonable time.

i'am not saying your wrong, i'm not saying its perfect the way itm is. i'am  just making a point against you saying people are to lazy to get good ships.  Some of us just dont have the time because RL. Wahts your solutions form us?

 

 

What should the button line be to have the best of everything. 5 min of gameplay a day. But do actually think the game have put in good mechanic to also help admins "2 hour man".  but again it is also partly how you want to play the game. Untill you need/want to sail 2 rate and 1 rate, think the game gives you good posibility to get good ships bought by doubloons. You also can buy good upgrades for dbl to.

This is a game that work slow. Even the combat, so with only 5-7 hours a week, it will work slowly to progress. But how do I do right now. 

If I need real, I could trade, but right now it is just not worth my time. i have bought a LGV Refit from admiralty. i have found a nice place with lots of enemy ports and little player activity. Take traders and go to ports and sell the goods. Think i can make around 50 k real 3 k dbl in a couple of hours.

I need dbl's, well either kill traders ore just kill some AI's.

I know it maybe isent big fights and fun all the time.

Personally I would recommend the dlc ship to an 2 hour man. Just make the game so much easier. But guess you always can have an Ai capped ship in the port. 

 

Edited by staun
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26 minutes ago, van Veen said:

Is this a joke? I was looking for some irony in your post, but could not find any :D

"We need to protect the elite players"

"The life is simply to hard for a PvP player"

"thats also why after every battle we need to be able to get safe away"

"Well, we can't have a lion sitting in a tree, hunted up there by buffalo's"

Would it help if I but a smiley after each sentence?

But guess you are right. No irony, but lots of sarcasme towards those top players with a kill/death ratio way above the rest, that still cry and whine about how hard there life is.

 

 

 

Edited by staun
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2 hours ago, staun said:

You might ask why? We need to protect the elite players.(lot of them complain about it, fortunally not all). 

No, no, no. Ganking must continue. Since I stopped sailing solo and sail around with 5-10 guys in my fleet from my clan or nation, I love clubbing seals and noobs to death 10v1, that's a beautiful end-game design, hear them cry that it's their last ship and they will quit the game. You know, ganking is beautiful. I can be a brain-dead zombie, make 1000 mistakes and play like a retard and still win. Ganking must continue, all seals and noobs must be clubbed to death and all pros shall die 10v1. I love visiting Polish and Danish waters, so many newbies to club there, that's a great place to sail a lot. You know, there is no "Danish" or "Polish" defence fleet like at KPR or Fort Royal, so you just go there, club a few lonely players and there will be no revenge fleet. So ganking the smallest and weakest nations in NA is the best activity, I love it! 

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On 2/20/2019 at 1:51 PM, Hullabaloo said:

In defence of ganking

I agree with your entire post. The moment NA began to cater to casual players or players that were less PVP or hardcore oriented it had nothing, but negative effect on the game and the community. In comparison to EVE right from the beginning of times it was getting harder and harder and harder. Yet it grew its player base.

We have seen lots of things done to make game less hmmm challenging... Flags removed. Speed caps. Leaks nerfed. Coastal defenses. Limited chains. Anti gank measures. Timers, timers and timers. Circles after circles that were surrounded by more circles. Crafting was way more complex before and way too easy now. Quality of ships mattered. Even getting materials was harder then.
Patch after patch the game have become easier and somehow followed the Colt's moto "God Created Men and Sam Colt Made Them Equal" - Colt in our case being the game design / mechanics.

It was pointed out many many times before by hundreds if not thousands of players that are now long left - When the game will become so restricted it will turn away the hardcore. When hardcore will leave, the snowflakes will celebrate... then die from boredom and leave too.

Edited by koltes
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19 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

No, no, no. Ganking must continue. Since I stopped sailing solo and sail around with 5-10 guys in my fleet from my clan or nation, I love clubbing seals and noobs to death 10v1, that's a beautiful end-game design, hear them cry that it's their last ship and they will quit the game. You know, ganking is beautiful. I can be a brain-dead zombie, make 1000 mistakes and play like a retard and still win. Ganking must continue, all seals and noobs must be clubbed to death and all pros shall die 10v1. I love visiting Polish and Danish waters, so many newbies to club there, that's a great place to sail a lot. You know, there is no "Danish" or "Polish" defence fleet like at KPR or Fort Royal, so you just go there, club a few lonely players and there will be no revenge fleet. So ganking the smallest and weakest nations in NA is the best activity, I love it! 

Didn't you tell us there where no active left in your clan and yout nation?

Best part of making ships expensive.

Defence fleet. Well mayby not for a nighty night guy. Guess not. But think Reverse have had some good fights over there lately.

Edited by staun
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4 hours ago, Sir Loorkon said:

Your post is excellent. I think what most players who want to introduce a BR limit on OW (like @Slim McSauce) do not realize is the fact that this would be a mechanic against beginners or average players and gives experienced players a huge advantage.

BR limits should be introduced in the patrol zone, not on OW.

I'm not sure BR limits are a good thing.  Back on GLOBAL when we still had the rookie zone in the shallows we would use it against the US all the time.  FLEETS counted against your BR, but they couldn't join so they lock out other players.  The other thing they would bring in Suprise and Reno's and bang suddenly battle is locked against three H. Rattler, but BR would be taken on the bigger ship.  We took a good number of 5th rates (even and Endy once) with one of two H rattler and my board fit Niagara.  So BR limits can actually hurt the beginners and average players that don't understand the system and be used against them.

3 hours ago, Meraun said:

Every body have the same chance to get gold ships and put best up grades on it. Why should a deticated player that spend time to get the best be punished, by gank fleets, that don't want to do an effort to get a good ship and upgrades. Why should he risk lose all to gank, by ppl not even trying to get a good ship?

I'm sorry if your stupid enough to be solo in capital waters of a nation and you get jumped by half the nation that is your own dang fault for picking hunting grounds in what would be called in most game high security zones.   Not meniton if some one is in those waters picking off solo new and cassual players (who tend to suck at the game no matter rank) than your not a very good player in the first place and just going after seals clubbing and easy targets.   Those guys tend to not run arond in gold ships either.  They use cheap throw away (DLC) ships for the most part.

If you don't want to loose your gold ship than don't hunt in high risk waters....

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Ganking is fine and part of any mmo game.

If you don't want to be ganked, make a group or find areas with less threats.

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5 hours ago, Sir Loorkon said:

Your post is excellent. I think what most players who want to introduce a BR limit on OW (like @Slim McSauce) do not realize is the fact that this would be a mechanic against beginners or average players and gives experienced players a huge advantage.

See the problem with people defending ganks is that they're not seeing the big picture. It's not ganking that needs defending, it's gank meta where everyone chooses ganks over contesting battles. See it's like tribal warfare in the hood, your friend gets jumped, so your friends go and find one of theirs to jump, then they do the same, subsequent gankings because tit for tat.
Now you have a combat meta that revolves around the poorest display of combat that can be offered.

I defend ganks, I don't defend uncontesting battles such as 10v1's which you advocate for. 2.0x BR is good, a 2v1 is a gank but it's still contesting, and you can learn a lot from those battles, you will not learn anything in a 10v1. Sounds like you want to "protect" new players under watch of gank squads. What you don't address is the opposite when they're the ones repeatedly getting ganked by experienced players where there truly is no chance for them to return the fight. When you say things like even battles, the experienced player will just run away, well that's a loss for that experience player, not a win.

It's a choice, you can either have the majority of battles be good battles, or the majority of battles be uncontesting ganks where there is no game being played, just going through the motions of being killed while in the back of everyone's minds they know the battle was decided when the tag was made. If you want that type of gameplay that's your idea of fun, but you're not playing to the strengths of the combat model which I think most people come here for. Sure, put OW over the battle but know you're choosing the lesser parts of the game to display.

The funny thing about putting gank meta over all is that you'll condition players to run from even fights, because they're scary and the outcome is uncertain
and ganks are warm, fuzzy, and safe. The ultimate casual filter, easy sweat-free wins and non-fights put above pitting battles where both sides are tested.
I would not be surprised if the majority of casual players are for ganks, they can feel like winners without risk. That's some real hand holding.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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Good points you make.  

The size of the gank usually depends on what you are doing and where you are of course, at Nation capitals and clan HQs you can expect 1st rates to come out against frigates yes. But even some of these fights are not hopeless if you are in a good group with good fast ships where you can kite and draw out and sink or fight off chasing ships. Experienced players shouldn't mind too much anyway. Many a time I have gone to MT/KPR/FR and got smashed by the defence fleet, I went there knowing full well I was unlikely to be bringing the ship back (we can replace them in a few mouse clicks anyway, others can't) and if some noob enjoyed getting the final blow on me or got his name in Combat News, is that so bad? He won and winning is nice :)

EG. a few days ago I capped someone's L'Ocean. He was an experienced player (much better than me) but he had absolutley no chance cos i had numbers. They had been running hostility on my clan's port, he had escaped from the hostility mission and we had waited for him and we took his 1st rate. There was very little skill to it, and as you say the battle was already decided on the tag. It was lame yes and I don't take any satisfaction from it in terms of my performance, it was easy and even I couldnt hello kitty that up, but it was still fun! Because we defended our Port and we made him pay for attacking us. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I'm pretty sure the player concerned understands that, doesn't mind and would defo have done the same to me! Why bring in rules to prevent it? why take that out of the game?

Newer/casual players can and will take part in this gank meta yes, by staying close to these Ports with safety in numbers. But we can see this as just an introduction to PvP. You are right, it's not the best part of the game but let them do it. I think/hope that many of them as they get better and more confident will want to experience more, they will want to venture out and take more risks and fight more contested battles. But I dont think they should be forced into it by frustrating and non-sensical (to them) BR limits which could mean they just get smashed time after time by more experienced players and rarely experience 'winning' at all? Not to mention all the baiting/exploit tactics that will develop around it that they will fall victim to.

Many of them won't understand the mechanic and they will be in ships that will be devastating for them to lose. Instead of developing into better players looking for more challenging fights, they might just quit.

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Safety in numbers is present in limited BR. 2.0x for example, many number can take place in smaller ships. A fleet of new players in 6th rates can take on a 4th rate well within the BR limits to make the battle 1v10, depending on the ships. Where BR limits gets it right is that you can have all the battles you can have now, but each one is substantially improved in quality. Instead of experienced players ganking people 10v1 in their best frigates, they will have to compromise and bring light ships to achieve the same packed battles, with more numbers comes an advantage. To give experienced players the numbers AND the ship advantage is unnecessary, and whatever advantage is gained for new players taking a part in these uncontestable gank fleets is lost when they are on the recieving end of it. A new player will learn more, and arguably have a better time in 6th/7th rates roaming in packs of 10 ganking single frigates/4th rates than they would doing the same in 5th rates where the battle is essentially won/lost from the moment the tag is initiated by way of pure over-gank, which doesn't lend to gameplay. If experienced players want to gang up and hit solo's and small fleets they can do so in a way that doesn't cause a "plague" effect where they wipe out everything in their path.

Edited by Slim McSauce
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Yes I can see that. TBF you have opened my eyes a bit to there being some advantages to BR limits.  I think perhaps that ultimately my instinct would be to keep the RoE rules as simple as possible and just let players decide how the battles are balanced. Even if in many cases that might lead to very uneven fights it's better not to have restrictions on what choices players have.  It's a good discussion though.

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