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Final damage model mega thread (cannons, pens, structure)

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5 hours ago, admin said:

of course
Current HP is balanced for damage and if damage gap increases we can let go of artificial balances and go for real HP based on mass of wood and structural integrity. 
Current difference in hp for cutter vs 1st rate is approximately 7x (based on old sea trials each ship should challenge each ship design).

Rea historicall difference in weight is 23x

The missing piece is the gun damage. moving to ball area/weight will solve the puzzle and bring all ship parameters to historical numbers

Example.

HP
Cutter hp will drop to 968 from 1768 (based on 4x weight to hp modifier)
Ocean hp will become 24374 (from 12086)

Damage
Cutter max caliber guns broadside damage will increase from 220 to 300 (reducing time to kill from 7.5 broadsides to 3.6 broadsides)
Ocean max caliber guns broadside damage will increase from 3266 to 6975 (keeping time to kill almost the same (old 3.7 - new 3.5 broadsides)

 

 

but of course this need to be tested - this change will allow raking to be increased (currently you cannot destroy full structure by raking - maybe this limits can be increased to allow more devastating bow and stern rakes - removing the desire to tank with a bow or stern)

I'm all for this...  With the following caveat.

 

Cost to build HMS Victory, 1st Rate (1756):  ~70,000 pounds (give or take a bit, depending on source)

 

Cost to build HMS Fly, Unrated Sloop Fly-Class (1752): 2631 pounds

 

Is there going to be a further mechanism to ensure the OW is not entirely populated by 1st rates?

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40 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

While the values can be similar, many ships have different riggings and sail plans. 

i think the same, if @admin will change hp of hull and brodside damage of all ship maybe he can diversify some sail hp based on real values (sail area in m2).

i have a good feeling about it: real ship weight with real resistance to damage, real damage of broadsides, and real costs of Sol would be a better sistem of what we have now.

first rates should be so much powerful and rare to be seen only in valuable battles. most of the pvp should be frigates vs frigates and with some 3rd time to time.

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1 minute ago, elite92 said:

i think the same, if @admin will change hp of hull and brodside damage of all ship maybe he can diversify some sail hp based on real values (sail area in m2).

i have a good feeling about it: real ship weight with real resistance to damage, real damage of broadsides, and real costs of Sol would be a better sistem of what we have now.

first rates should be so much powerful and rare to be seen only in valuable battles. most of the pvp should be frigates vs frigates and with some 3rd time to time.

What about the speedboat Bellonas?  SOL's shouldn't be able to catch small ships.

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3 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

What about the speedboat Bellonas?  SOL's shouldn't be able to catch small ships.

who said the bellona should cath small ships? at least not against the wind

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6 minutes ago, elite92 said:

who said the bellona should cath small ships? at least not against the wind

No SOL should go faster than 12 knots...ever.

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While I'm a big fan of the move towards realism, we need to remember to adjust the "limiting factors" as well...  cost/resources/time/wind/draught

Adjusting SOME without adjusting others MAY lead to unintended consequences.

But again,  now is the time to test it while we can.

Edited by Vernon Merrill
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6 hours ago, admin said:

of course


Current HP is balanced for damage and if damage gap increases we can let go of artificial balances and go for real HP based on mass of wood and structural integrity. 
Current difference in hp for cutter vs 1st rate is approximately 7x (based on old sea trials each ship should challenge each ship design).

Rea historicall difference in weight is 23x

The missing piece is the gun damage. moving to ball area/weight will solve the puzzle and bring all ship parameters to historical numbers

Example.

HP
Cutter hp will drop to 968 from 1768 (based on 4x weight to hp modifier)
Ocean hp will become 24374 (from 12086)

Damage
Cutter max caliber guns broadside damage will increase from 220 to 300 (reducing time to kill from 7.5 broadsides to 3.6 broadsides)
Ocean max caliber guns broadside damage will increase from 3266 to 6975 (keeping time to kill almost the same (old 3.7 - new 3.5 broadsides)

 

 

but of course this need to be tested - this change will allow raking to be increased (currently you cannot destroy full structure by raking - maybe this limits can be increased to allow more devastating bow and stern rakes - removing the desire to tank with a bow or stern)

Id love to see this change but it has to be accompanied by the death of thickness meta, structure should play a much more important role in the game than thickness. Thickness as it currently stands is an entirely ridiculous mechanic that is neither historical nor fun.

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2 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

While I'm a big fan of the move towards realism, we need to remember to adjust the "limiting factors" as well...  cost/resources/time/wind/draught

Adjusting SOME without adjusting others MAY lead to unintended consequences.

But again,  now is the time to test it while we can.

raking will lose all artificial limits and you will be able to demast by raking.

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Biggest concern is that some ships become obselete yet again.

We already have a few ships that rarely set sail due to "x is better." Game balance should be constantly monitored.

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1 hour ago, Wraith said:

All I can say to the fan boys clamoring for historical accuracy is, "Be careful what you ask for."  Right now we are in a strange place between balanced game play and a library of ships across age of sail history. Right now many ships across classes have utility. Is it perfect, no, not by any means, but you can find uses for everything from 7th to 1st rates in different combinations of ships within class. 

Because we have such diversity in ship building technology across the years encompassed by the game if you go the full historical and damage model accuracy route you'll be cutting off significantly the utility of a majority of the ships in the game.  I've never understood this motivation (history/damage model over game play) since at the end of the day, we're still playing an action game, not a sim.

To put this in different terms: there's a reason that we don't have hard core flight sim mechanics (think Falcon 4.0, DCS, etc.) on top of mixed generation flight fighting games: the older platform and weapon technology will always lose since the newer technology was built by design to beat the older technology. Period.

So think about the interactions that are in play when you ask to take away something like "thickness." Since angling is a thing, this makes older but more agile ships viable. Take this away and those older ships with lower historical broadside weight and less flexibility in their sailing profiles basically become meaningless "content," and we already have enough of that.

Agreed.  And why I say "test it now".  Because I'm not sure it wont have bad consequences.  Its either a HUGE creep towards "Bigger is Better and 1st Rate is Insta-Win" or "What do you mean a 1st Rate costs 3 million Reales and takes 2 weeks to build!!!  I paid for this game too!!!!"...

In addition to what you said above.

But again, I've been wrong before and I could always be wrong again.

Edited by Vernon Merrill
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2 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Agreed.  And why I say "test is now".  Because I'm not sure it wont have bad consequences.  Its either a HUGE creep towards "Bigger is Better and 1st Rate is Insta-Win" or "What do you mean a 1st Rate costs 3 million Reales and takes 2 weeks to build!!!  I paid for this game too!!!!"...

In addition to what you said above.

But again, I've been wrong before and I could always be wrong again.

First rates are not that cheap right now neither so incredibily expensive as you are suggesting.

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Unescorted 1st rates will still be very vulnerable.  They should be insta win in a group except to other SOLs

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7 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Unescorted 1st rates will still be very vulnerable.  They should be insta win in a group except to other SOLs

So tell me why I shouldnt ALWAYS sail a 1st rate then...

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Just now, Vernon Merrill said:

So tell me why I shouldnt ALWAYS sail a 1st rate then...

I can't.  I NEVER sail a 1st rate.  (I have one, but no slots open and collecting rats at the dock)

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15 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

So tell me why I shouldnt ALWAYS sail a 1st rate then...

you should always sail the best ship you can afford.

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18 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

Biggest concern is that some ships become obselete yet again.

We already have a few ships that rarely set sail due to "x is better." Game balance should be constantly monitored.

well today we sail l'ocean over santi and vic because of thickness and angling meta and leak problem on victory, sail bucentaure because of hp and 42pd carronades and also because 24 and 42pd can pen 1st rates. We sail bellona in OW because of 18's wont pen on most lineships, we sail 3rd rate in PB because of the BR. We dont sail wasa because it has same br as pavel/christian in pb and it has only 600 hold 😮

There will be a rebalance on the BR hopefully soon so not the endy will have more BR then 3rd rate, it will be good when its gonna matter on broadside weight so an frigate wouldnt dare to brawl a SOL unless they want to be completely crippled from a full broadside

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Just now, admin said:

you should always sail the best ship you can afford.

Nah.  Ships have missions.  1st rates are for big battles in a fleet.  5th rates are for hunting solo, etc

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19 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

So tell me why I shouldnt ALWAYS sail a 1st rate then...

Because you can not hunt undefended traders with them.

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8 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Nah.  Ships have missions.  1st rates are for big battles in a fleet.  5th rates are for hunting solo, etc

that still doesent account that a frigate should be able to soak the damage  from a full broadside of a sol and still be able to fight without really taking major consequences

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Just now, Wyy said:

that still doesent account that a frigate should be able to soak the damage  from a full broadside of a sol and still be able to fight without really taking major consequences

I never said that.  I've always said a frigate cant survive against a SOL.  With the new shot weight model that Devs will be introducing, that will be the case....unless you can get behind an unescorted SOL.

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7 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I never said that.  I've always said a frigate cant survive against a SOL.  With the new shot weight model that Devs will be introducing, that will be the case....unless you can get behind an unescorted SOL.

ah good, were on the same terms then :) 

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20 minutes ago, admin said:

you should always sail the best ship you can afford.

Even they are no fun? Meta play because it's meta? That is a reason why some games are plain boring and painful to keep playing. Ofc except for pew pew meta kids 😉

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3 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Even they are no fun? Meta play because it's meta? That is a reason why some games are plain boring and painful to keep playing. Ofc except for pew pew meta kids 😉

Pickles will always be fun to sail.

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