Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
admin

Final damage model mega thread (cannons, pens, structure)

Recommended Posts

7 minutes ago, admin said:

of course
Current HP is balanced for damage and if damage gap increases we can let go of artificial balances and go for real HP based on mass of wood and structural integrity. 
Current difference in hp for cutter vs 1st rate is approximately 7x (based on old sea trials each ship should challenge each ship design).

Rea historicall difference in weight is 23x

The missing piece is the gun damage. moving to ball area/weight will solve the puzzle and bring all ship parameters to historical numbers

Example.

HP
Cutter hp will drop to 968 from 1768 (based on 4x weight to hp modifier)
Ocean hp will become 24374 (from 12086)

Damage
Cutter max caliber guns broadside damage will increase from 220 to 300 (reducing time to kill from 7.5 broadsides to 3.6 broadsides)
Ocean max caliber guns broadside damage will increase from 3266 to 6975 (keeping time to kill almost the same (old 3.7 - new 3.5 broadsides)

 

 

but of course this need to be tested - this change will allow raking to be increased (currently you cannot destroy full structure by raking - maybe this limits can be increased to allow more devastating bow and stern rakes - removing the desire to tank with a bow or stern)

Still wondering where have you read that stern rakes makes so devastating blows against hull structure and when a light ship was able to take down a lineship by raking.

Edited by Intrepido

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whatever changes you do dont forget that repair is percentagebased :) 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Damn, think of all the hull reps that 1st rates will need as 1 hull repairs 100 HP 🤣

3 questions for @admin:

  1. Why sails HP is equal to the side HP of the ship? Shouldn't it be the sail surface area?
  2. Why mast HP is tied to the side HP of the ship? After HP buff for small ships to balance with the Hercules, all of their masts became much stronger too.
  3. Shouldn't ships of the line have much larger cargo hold space? Just looking at the Traders Brig with 2000+ having more than SOLs with barely 1000+. Not mentioning Indiaman with 4000+

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
18 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

Shouldn't ships of the line have much larger cargo hold space? Just looking at the Traders Brig with 2000+ having more than SOLs with barely 1000+. Not mentioning Indiaman with 4000+

T lynx has 500, wasa has 600 :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Wyy said:

T lynx has 500, wasa has 600 :P

What if you put 5 T Lynxes inside Wasa, does it increase your cargo capacity to 2500? 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Wyy said:

T lynx has 500, wasa has 600 :P

Cargo vessel vs warship.  The large warships have plenty of hold space and its already filled.  To be fair...the cargo ships have way too many crew

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
43 minutes ago, admin said:

of course
Current HP is balanced for damage and if damage gap increases we can let go of artificial balances and go for real HP based on mass of wood and structural integrity. 
Current difference in hp for cutter vs 1st rate is approximately 7x (based on old sea trials each ship should challenge each ship design).

Rea historicall difference in weight is 23x

The missing piece is the gun damage. moving to ball area/weight will solve the puzzle and bring all ship parameters to historical numbers

Example.

HP
Cutter hp will drop to 968 from 1768 (based on 4x weight to hp modifier)
Ocean hp will become 24374 (from 12086)

Damage
Cutter max caliber guns broadside damage will increase from 220 to 300 (reducing time to kill from 7.5 broadsides to 3.6 broadsides)
Ocean max caliber guns broadside damage will increase from 3266 to 6975 (keeping time to kill almost the same (old 3.7 - new 3.5 broadsides)

 

 

but of course this need to be tested - this change will allow raking to be increased (currently you cannot destroy full structure by raking - maybe this limits can be increased to allow more devastating bow and stern rakes - removing the desire to tank with a bow or stern)

would love to test it, a 5th rate shouldnt be able to take a full broadside from a first rate with just loosing 50% side armour even if all balls penetrate, without taking devastating damage

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As cannons are quite heavy loads: could be we have an option to drop them purposely ?

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 5:43 PM, Celtiberofrog said:

Ships are expensive (and life where very expensive too in ages of sail) so when being into an escaping action, when it can become a vital escaping, our ancestors commanders, when being hunted in an obvious inferiority to their hunter, could decide to drop anything from their vessels to gain speed, this action could include cannons.

NA should allow to drop all hold material (repairs, goods, etc...) as well as cannons as a last chance/risk to take to hopefuly save our ship. Both in OW and in Battle.

  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Celtiberofrog said:

As cannons are quite heavy loads: could be we have an option to drop them purposely ?

 

How would that work in RL?  They needed a crane (usually a lower spar) to lift a gun and sway it outboard.  When sailing, you're using your spars for...you know...sails.  You could maybe toss over some of your upper deck small carros, but that would be about it.  Realistically, there is not a lot of cargo that could have been jettisoned, so we're already bending the laws of reality there (when we toss it in OW).

Edited by Angus MacDuff

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

How would that work in RL?  They needed a crane (usually a lower spar) to lift a gun and sway it outboard.  When sailing, you're using your spars for...you know...sails.  You could maybe toss over some of your upper deck small carros, but that would be about it.  Realistically, there is not a lot of cargo that could have been jettisoned, so we're already bending the laws of reality there (when we toss it in OW).

We had it happen in history, but mostly in cases of small ships if I'm not mistaken.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

How would that work in RL?  They needed a crane (usually a lower spar) to lift a gun and sway it outboard.  When sailing, you're using your spars for...you know...sails.  You could maybe toss over some of your upper deck small carros, but that would be about it.  Realistically, there is not a lot of cargo that could have been jettisoned, so we're already bending the laws of reality there (when we toss it in OW).

In reality you destroyed wood structure to open wider each scuttle and just push off cannons into sea.

As a desparate action to gain speed and assuming that any combat is hopeless, this could entail some hull damage ? but it does not matter as your ship is in a "almost lost" situation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I  dont understand the reasoning behind  a large caliber gun taking longer to reload than a smaller gun ... there is no difference in technique .. just manpower ie it took a larger crew to run out a large caliber gun than a small caliber gun ... sponging out , loading powder and shot firing all took the same time ,, yet in game the disadvantage of having longs over mediums  larger calibers over small ... is a double negative ... larger crew needed  and more time ... it should be one or the other not both . i would also like to more accuratley be able to choose what percentage of crew are assigned to either loading cannon ,  sailing the ship , repairing or  preparing to board ... the just turning each on or off is annoying  .. been able to allocate these jobs as a percentage would bring a new dimension into  fighting a battle

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

We had it happen in history, but mostly in cases of small ships if I'm not mistaken.

Indeed, I'm thinking in corvettes or frigates as feasable operation and crucial for those fast vessels when being hunted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

I  dont understand the reasoning behind  a large caliber gun taking longer to reload than a smaller gun ... there is no difference in technique .. just manpower ie it took a larger crew to run out a large caliber gun than a small caliber gun ... sponging out , loading powder and shot firing all took the same time ,, yet in game the disadvantage of having longs over mediums  larger calibers over small ... is a double negative ... larger crew needed  and more time ... it should be one or the other not both . i would also like to more accuratley be able to choose what percentage of crew are assigned to either loading cannon ,  sailing the ship , repairing or  preparing to board ... the just turning each on or off is annoying  .. been able to allocate these jobs as a percentage would bring a new dimension into  fighting a battle

You need to load more gunpowder, everything is heavier, needs more power, harder to push the cannon forward after firing it. Balls are heavier too and usually, 1 person loads the cannonball? Takes much more energy to do it. Longer reload makes sense to me.

Edited by Banished Privateer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

You need to load more gunpowder, everything is heavier, needs more power, harder to push the cannon forward after firing it. Balls are heavier too and usually, 1 person loads it? Takes much more energy to do it. Longer reload makes sense to me.

You would also increase fatigue more quickly with the large guns.  Slower loading over time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
21 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

You need to load more gunpowder, everything is heavier, needs more power, harder to push the cannon forward after firing it. Balls are heavier too and usually, 1 person loads it? Takes much more energy to do it. Longer reload makes sense to me.

 

11 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

You would also increase fatigue more quickly with the large guns.  Slower loading over time.

i could agree with both, from the first 10 minutes the reload would be the same, but as pointed out fatigue would be much easier to get when they reload much heavier guns.

I would assume crew loss of a higher caliber ship would have much more consequences then of a ship with lighter cannons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

You would also increase fatigue more quickly with the large guns.  Slower loading over time.

I need to hire Grundge for loading my 42s... I feel like he could sustain 30 seconds reload throughout the entire battle :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

You need to load more gunpowder, everything is heavier, needs more power, harder to push the cannon forward after firing it. Balls are heavier too and usually, 1 person loads the cannonball? Takes much more energy to do it. Longer reload makes sense to me.

maybe you should re read ,my post ... larger gun crews were required  for larger calibers ... where did  i post that  the same number of crew for a small caliber gun could re load a larger caliber at same speed

you think it takes two men longer to lift a 24lb ball  than 1  man a 12lb ball... 1 man wouldnt load a 42ib cannon ball ...really ???

the gunpowder came in pre measured  bags ... they didnt spoonit in with a ladlle

or a ten  man tackle crew longer to run out a 42lb cannon than a q 5 man tackle crew  to run out a 12lb cannon

or are you just been obtuse for the sake of it

Quote

I need to hire Grundge for loading my 42s... I feel like he could sustain 30 seconds reload throughout the entire battle

it can be arranged I understand that you have a pay pal accout for your Naval action hiring and selling

Edited by Grundgemunkey
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Grundgemunkey said:

it can be arranged I understand that you have a pay pal accout for your Naval action hiring and selling

He mostly uses it to sell 🤐

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

Damn, think of all the hull reps that 1st rates will need as 1 hull repairs 100 HP 🤣

3 questions for @admin:

  1. Why sails HP is equal to the side HP of the ship? Shouldn't it be the sail surface area?

when calculating area majority of ships have a similar/unified % in relation to their weight so we decided to tie it to hp 
for mast is the same - thickness of the mast and weight of wood for masts and rigging universally depended on the hull and was somewhat similar across most modern vessels. There were even universal tables of standard proportions of masts and yards for classes.
 

holds are just balanced for gameplay. Of course ocean would have a biggest hold, but for the game indiaman is the biggest hauler. Is this a problem I wonder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

While the values can be similar, many ships have different riggings and sail plans. 

why do you have to comment and try and prove anyone that posts they are wrong and you know better

you dont even read the posts you are commenting on properly ,,, is it because you dont  understand ??

 

Edited by Grundgemunkey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

why do you have to comment and try and prove anyone that posts they are wrong and you know better

 

I'm tired of personal attacks at me, you should really find something better to do. Maybe rename to GrumpyMonkey?

The reason why I am commenting the sails HP is because for some ships it is extremely easy to rigging shock them while it's harder in case of other ships. Ships like frigates and pirate frigates with few jibs get a lot of rigging shocks easily. Surprise with very low side HP and lots of sails also gets easily rigging shocked. For some ships it just feels unnatural how they lose sail HP and how many sails they actually have or the sail HP density for every sail that the ship has.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...