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Final damage model mega thread (cannons, pens, structure)

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I would stress the fact that guns are too accurate, over any issues with penetration.  Especially with mast hits.  Smooth bore cannon firing at a range of more than 100m, should have very little chance of striking anything as narrow as a mast.  Mast hits should be incidental...not aimed (sniped). 

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We maybe also should have some squib loads / barrel bursts (some guns not able to fire due to not correctly loaded cartridges, or due to wet powder) during a broadside as this was very common during the Age of Sail.

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12 minutes ago, Joernsson said:

We maybe also should have some squib loads / barrel bursts (some guns not able to fire due to not correctly loaded cartridges, or due to wet powder) during a broadside as this was very common during the Age of Sail.

barrel bursts became extremely rare by the end of the 17th century due to improvements in gun technology (for example makers of guns in russia during Peter the Great had to stay right near the barrel during double charged tests)

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57 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

An example would be a 9 pounder can pen 100cm of oak at 100m but only 50cm of mast? If this could be done you could make dismasting and hull bashing 2 totally separation problems. 

Interesting. Something like this would be ok since mast sniping is an ... arbitration for damaging general rigging.

____

It's one thing what would happen with weight based damage in SOL vs. frigate, we also need to consider cerb or renom vs. 18 and 24 frigates.

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8 minutes ago, admin said:

barrel bursts became extremely rare by the end of the 17th century due to improvements in gun technology (for example makers of guns in russia during Peter the Great had to stay right near the barrel during double charged tests)

Barrel Burst was maybe not the correct word. I didn't mean a destroyed gun but rather a gun temporarily unable to fire due to e.g. wet or bad powder. Some captains who had not a good reputation or influence or just had bad luck (or just not enough money in their pockets) sometimes got supplied with powder of a very poor quality which often caused guns not functioning as desired. You can read that in every second book.

Edited by Guest

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38 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I would stress the fact that guns are too accurate, over any issues with penetration.  Especially with mast hits.  Smooth bore cannon firing at a range of more than 100m, should have very little chance of striking anything as narrow as a mast.  Mast hits should be incidental...not aimed (sniped). 

think the problem is that the cannonball operates as it is fired from a rifled barreled cannon, but it should be smooth bore and actually swerve left, right up or down. Try to shoot a softgun pistol and see how the bullet behaves after leaving the gun

Edited by Wyy
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1 minute ago, Joernsson said:

Barrel Burst was maybe not the correct word. I didn't mean a destroyed gun but rather a gun temporarily unable to fire due to e.g. wet powder. Some captains who had not a good reputation or influence or just had bad luck sometimes got supplied with powder of a very poor quality which often caused guns not functioning as desired. You can read that in every second book.

There are a number of factors that apply to gunnery that we don't address in the game because it would be too complicated.  We want to simulate gunnery at a gamming level.  Not scientifically accurate.  Crew fatigue, misfires, rain, visability (smoke) and the reported fact that the wind dies in big gun battles, to name a few.  Lets not get into the weeds of all the minor issues in firing a gun. 

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5 minutes ago, Wyy said:

think the problem is that the cannonball operates as it is fired from a rifled barreled cannon, but it should be smooth bore and actually swerve left, right up or down. Try to shoot a softgun pistol and see how the bullet behaves after leaving the gun

And the balls weren't perfect spheres...

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41 minutes ago, admin said:

Mast penetrations are different so you already have this option. it does not need to be on the gun - it does not matter where it is

true but for the sake of balance it might make your life easier since different guns cause different issues. Take the carro for example. If it has a high dps it can be very effective against masts. Just look at surprise vs surprise 32 carro. 1 well placed broadside and 2 masts can be lost. It is an extreme example with suprises but what if you made carros good against hull but terrible against dismasting? Giving different guns bonuses against different things would make things more interesting.  Anyway it is my opinion that small guns do not do enough damage against bigger ships and long guns are almost useless. What can we do to make the medium gun and the long gun both good but both of them a good gun for different situations? What advantage does the current dispersion advantage give long guns right now over mediums since long range fighting is extremely ineffective in game and in real life to be fair. In the past it was the chain and the penetration against masts. Now with all the mast mods and the chain range nerf the gap between long and medium is less. If you need mast mods for the game to be playable against good players there is a problem. Without mast mods battles are impossible. I had a duel against moscalb and I used mast mods. I smashed a player that is most likely better than me because I had 1 mod he did not have. I did not win that battle. Elite french rig won that battle for me. Another time myself and moscalb had 4 duels in a row. In the first duel I won with mast mods. Moscalb countered me with penitration mods and won the second duel. I used better mods in duel 3 and I won. In duel 4 moscalb used even better penetration mods and beat me. To this day I have no idea who the better player is because mods played our battles. Not tactics or intelligence. 

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1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

incorrect,  historical parameters would nerf the shit out of light ships turn rates compared to larger ships

"ALL that serves to produce motion in ships, has more force in large than in small ones; but the difficulty which large ships have to receive the motion, is greater, in a greater proportion, than that which opposes the motion of small ships. For, if the dimensions and machines which compose a large vessel, are twice as large as those which constitute a small one, (solidities being in ratio of their cubes,) the first will be eight times as great. Yet the obstacle which the large will oppose to its being put in motion will be two and thirty times as great as that of the small one."

"So that if the evolution be supposed of the same number of degrees, the stern and head of the large ship will have to describe arcs twice as large as the small one; and this greater velocity being multiplied by the solidity of the parts of the large ship, which is eight times as great as that of the small one, the product will give 16 times more motion; the resistance will act consequently 16 times as much on the large as on the small; and as that resistance operates on the arm of a lever twice as long, the total resistance of the large ship will be 32 times as great. Thence it follows, that if the forces which act on the large ship be augmented only in proportion to her solidity, she will have still four times more difficulty than the small one to get into motion: and therefore the large ship, instead of making in the same time an angle of rotation as great as the small one, will only make an angle of one fourth, or three times less."

"So that, if a vessel 100 feet long takes four minutes to perform an evolution, a similar vessel of 150 feet will take six minutes or thereabouts to perform the same circular movement. For as 100:150 :: 4:6."

The Elements and Practice of Rigging And Seamanship, 1794, by David Steel

 

I know the talk is about Cannon, which indirectly means we manoeuvre the ships to use them, but I can't understand what you say with that phrase even if game is not as complex as reality, the basis of light versus heavier is well established.

What you mean, maybe, is that turn speed is a result of straight speed, ship dimensions and ship weight, and not a hard number, such as 3.00, or 2.82, but dynamic :) I hope this is what you mean.

If I misunderstood your comment, my apologies.

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15 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

And the balls weren't perfect spheres...

true which would make them even more inaccurate

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17 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

 Another time myself and moscalb had 4 duels in a row. In the first duel I won with mast mods. Moscalb countered me with penitration mods and won the second duel. I used better mods in duel 3 and I won. In duel 4 moscalb used even better penetration mods and beat me. To this day I have no idea who the better player is because mods played our battles. 

Demasting and its balance is a tricky issue indeed. We went for a simple solution - allowing repairs during battle, and adding mods that drastically reduce demasting options. It should be discussed in the separate topic if someone wants to discuss the options with demasting

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52 minutes ago, admin said:

Stern rakes are not as devastating. you can get rakes twice and win (USS constitution vs java)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_28_June_1803  A british 74-gun ship raked by a 24pd frigate = the lineship break combat and the frigate can escape but all in all, the lineship is said to having suffered only a few wounded, it's more her riggings damages & the wind that made her unable to win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_21_April_1806  French frigate captain "displayed superior sailmanship and managed to fend off his much stronger opponent by a combination of manoeuvers that rendered the batteries of Tremendous ineffective, and threatened her with sustaining raking fire. The French frigate thus managed to evade and escape."  So ok a frigate have displayed top notch skills and "nearly managed" to rake the lineship, he did not even rake it once, she did not sink it, she escaped

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_13_January_1797 Temeraire-class Droits-de-l'homme raked multiple time by 2 british frigates, hours long close range duel in bad weather, the two frigates were unable to win, but the weather pushed the dismasted lineship to the coast and struck a sandbank.

 

I have yet to read about a frigate making fun of a lineship & forcing it to struck her color by stern camping.

 

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3 minutes ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

I have yet to read about a frigate making fun of a lineship & forcing it to struck her color by stern camping.

You wont.  You can read about the Battle of the Nile, where a Brit 74 destroyed a French frigate with one broadside (because the Frenchman had the GAUL to fire upon her (see what I did there?)).

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2 hours ago, admin said:

I agree that the current system is working well - given the goals of the system.

The goal is

  • Allow almost EVERY ship to sink almost every ship in game with skill (skilled light frigate can sink a first rate)
  • Balance guns for time to kill (old sea trials model)
  • Give ships a chance make mistakes and recover (further accentuated by thickness and angle importance)

This is something what I will never like about this game. The goal is to sink and kill. I get this is a game and players always want to see some drastic results of their actions but I believe that the goal should be, that you just want to beat the other player and not necessarily destroy him and his ship. I hate seeing all this sinking :D

A very drastic suggestion I have is that we totally get rid of hull hp. No sinking by shooting the hull above the waterline. Only through severe structural damage and leaks. The gun fighting should only be about penetration and what happens after a cannon ball penetrates (crew (should be the most important thing anyway (bold advertising https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/27604-new-officers-and-crew-mechanic-idea/) modules, leaks and structural elements)

Additionally to that I am afraid that a more sophisticated hitbox system inside the ship is needed. I think that the structure bar can still be kept but the damage should be linked to certain important elements and their hitboxes (keel, important structural timbers, mast roots etc.). Thus a SOL can still deliver a devastating blow to a frigate due to severe crew loss and potentially heavy structural damage. Especially when firing down onto the opponent. On the other hand even small ships can deliver serious damage to crew and modules if they are lucky, simply because they can also penetrate. but they will never do it as fast or devastating as a SOL. This buffed up damage should be countered by lesser accurate guns so positioning and sail handling plays a bigger role than who is the best sniper (I could do another bold plug here but I won't ;) ) But this is a bit offtopic and not really about cannon balance (except the accuracy thing).

 

This flaw is exaggerated by the following factors

  • Historical: Lineships have lower turn rates, speeds
  • Historical: All guns penetrate at direct angles at close range.
  • Historical: Stern rake is devastating 

This together creates this paradox (which i think must be discussed despite the fact that the current balance is working well)

  • Historical parameters mentioned above allow light ships to destroy line ships using stern camping
  • +
  • Balanced low damage of heavy guns allows light ships to tank damage if they make a mistake, giving them an option to return back to stern camping after eating broadsides, or just disengage and run.

I can't see how a light ship can or should destroy a SOL via stern raking. Others already pointed out that SOL vs SOL can deliver devastating rakes but how should a Requin or Hercules for example achieve this? The height difference alone doesn't really allow this (at least at the ranges we do this in game). Cripple a SOL a bit and enough to be a lesser threat to other SOL but downright destroy it? People always say that a ship of that area is mostly empty etc. There is still so much inside it, especially down the middle that prevents all balls from travelling down the entire length. A cannon would stop lighter balls, even the staircases and ladders will take some energy out of them, a stove, all the pumps and capstans and not forgetting the masts and especially the angle you have when firing up from a smaller ship. Are the deck planks and beams even considered in the game?

All in all I would say that rakes are in a good state at the moment. Maybe still too good for light ships vs SOL

Well, let's see how the change to weight based damage will play out

 

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3 hours ago, admin said:

we have ideas on muskets but they cannot be realized until the release. But even those ideas are realized. Sterncamping with lets say 20 guns will be still more powerful because a first rate can only place maybe 20-30 muskets on stern, which will help but will not solve stern camping. 

To rephrase
We want stern camping to be historical and strong. And we want light ships to destroy first rates by stern camping if they are able to get there (using superior skill in positioning and sail management). But we want light ships to pay for mistakes (for example getting into broadsides by mistakes) because currently they don't pay.

If you want that masts are the thing a light ship cant recover from.

So basicly increase the hitboxes of masts and/or tweak thickness/HP of masts.

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29 minutes ago, rediii said:

If you want that masts are the thing a light ship cant recover from.

So basicly increase the hitboxes of masts and/or tweak thickness/HP of masts.

But you pointed out, to me, that there are mast mods that will make dismasting verry hard. So...?

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1 hour ago, HachiRoku said:

Without mast mods battles are impossible. I had a duel against moscalb and I used mast mods. I smashed a player that is most likely better than me because I had 1 mod he did not have. I did not win that battle. Elite french rig won that battle for me. Another time myself and moscalb had 4 duels in a row. In the first duel I won with mast mods. Moscalb countered me with penitration mods and won the second duel. I used better mods in duel 3 and I won. In duel 4 moscalb used even better penetration mods and beat me. To this day I have no idea who the better player is because mods played our battles. Not tactics or intelligence. 

This illustrates a major problem IMHO.  2 experienced players whose main focus when fighting was heavily in favour of mast sniping.  Focus should not be on taking down masts and canon accuracy should not allow this focus.

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13 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

This illustrates a major problem IMHO.  2 experienced players whose main focus when fighting was heavily in favour of mast sniping.  Focus should not be on taking down masts and canon accuracy should not allow this focus.

cannon accuracy and dismasting don't have that much to do with each other since dismasting is normally done at less than 50m. It does make a difference in top section dismasting but top section dismasting is not that easy anymore. 

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Cannon related: Mortar cannons/Mortar Brig
They shot 4 balls from 2 cannons, why is that? (I know the mortar brig perk gives us this ability)
Skilled mortar brig captains are able to sink moving ships. I like that very skilled mortar brig captains can do this, but it is becoming normal use of all mortar brigs now so I think it is to easy (I have not tried my self but I have been demasted while sailing at  +8kn and changing course randomly every 30 second ).

Please just remove the mortar brig perk! It makes the Mortar brig OP with double shot and increased accuracy, so by removing that both issues are nerfed a bit. 

Edited by Tiedemann
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22 hours ago, Wyy said:

but it is already firing like this, its just if you singeshot you fire from the upmost deck thats active, but if you fire the renomme on rolling frontfire it starts at the bow and rolls backwards and bringing the poop deck cannons with it as they pass by

Yes, and that is what Capt Aerobane was refering to - single ranging shots - and a change to the sequence is what I was agreeing too.

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9 hours ago, admin said:

Demasting and its balance is a tricky issue indeed. We went for a simple solution - allowing repairs during battle, and adding mods that drastically reduce demasting options. It should be discussed in the separate topic if someone wants to discuss the options with demasting

we should test the proposed weight damage based on testbed, tweak ship hp and thickness and make line ship extremely rare and powerful.

reduce accuracy of cannons to solve many problems and increase rake damage so it can be done effectively only in very close range to punish wrong positioning.

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@admin would it be an idea to just increase gap between the caliber damage/hp pool of ships? like now belle poule has 4,6k side hp, while bellona has 8k and l'ocean has 13k, if you for example bump up the bellona hp to 16k and double the broadside weight, aswell as balancing the other ship classes so the higher the caliber you fight the more significant damage you take, it should if im not wrong outlign itself. Just an idea i came up with. Would have to  do the same with masts hp aswell though

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On 2/2/2019 at 2:34 AM, Wyy said:

@admin would it be an idea to just increase gap between the caliber damage/hp pool of ships? like now belle poule has 4,6k side hp, while bellona has 8k and l'ocean has 13k, if you for example bump up the bellona hp to 16k and double the broadside weight, aswell as balancing the other ship classes so the higher the caliber you fight the more significant damage you take, it should if im not wrong outlign itself. Just an idea i came up with. Would have to  do the same with masts hp aswell though

of course
Current HP is balanced for damage and if damage gap increases we can let go of artificial balances and go for real HP based on mass of wood and structural integrity. 
Current difference in hp for cutter vs 1st rate is approximately 7x (based on old sea trials each ship should challenge each ship design).

Rea historicall difference in weight is 23x

The missing piece is the gun damage. moving to ball area/weight will solve the puzzle and bring all ship parameters to historical numbers

Example.

HP
Cutter hp will drop to 968 from 1768 (based on 4x weight to hp modifier)
Ocean hp will become 24374 (from 12086)

Damage
Cutter max caliber guns broadside damage will increase from 220 to 300 (reducing time to kill from 7.5 broadsides to 3.6 broadsides)
Ocean max caliber guns broadside damage will increase from 3266 to 6975 (keeping time to kill almost the same (old 3.7 - new 3.5 broadsides)

 

 

but of course this need to be tested - this change will allow raking to be increased (currently you cannot destroy full structure by raking - maybe this limits can be increased to allow more devastating bow and stern rakes - removing the desire to tank with a bow or stern)

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