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Final damage model mega thread (cannons, pens, structure)

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2 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

Fill the back of an enemy with a full broadside and there definitely should be more damage than a dozen crew and a tick of structure which people tend to use to avoid serious damage.

Definitely true for RL, but there is much more involved here. Stern raking is very common in this game because of the many artificial simulations that we use.  If you want a battle to be over because of a stern rake (as it would have been in RL), then get ready for some real rage.  There are more sterns being presented in this game than on Canal st in Amsterdam.  

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7 minutes ago, Capt Aerobane said:

Currently the game would fire in this order:

8, 9, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

I would prefer either 

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.

or better

1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 5, 9, 6, 7.

A small change, but one that would make the quality of life better for any ship with a huge gap in its upper deck or very few guns there.

Big affirmative on this idea, especially the third option. Example one (the current game firing sequence) has been an annoyance to many players for some time now on ships that have a cannon layout similar to the Renommee.

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19 minutes ago, Captiva said:

Big affirmative on this idea, especially the third option. Example one (the current game firing sequence) has been an annoyance to many players for some time now on ships that have a cannon layout similar to the Renommee.

but it is already firing like this, its just if you singeshot you fire from the upmost deck thats active, but if you fire the renomme on rolling frontfire it starts at the bow and rolls backwards and bringing the poop deck cannons with it as they pass by

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Don’t fix what’s not broken!

I think there’s enough variation between medium, longs and carronades to suit “different play styles”.

If anything, just alittle more adjustment to maintain those distinct styles.

Longs, 5% range (maintaining range accuracy), 5% reload.

Mediums, -5% reload, -5% damage.

Carronades, 5% damage, -5% accuracy.

 

Edited by BuckleUpBones

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When I look at the damage output difference between small and large cannons, it does not seam right to me. Compare the 9pd and 42pd cannons for example. I think the difference in damage output is way to low. If more damage from larger cannons creates an unbalance because basic cutters are supposed to be able to kill 1. rates, then increase the reload time for larger cannons.

I do not know the velocity difference between any of the different cannons sizes. But if you simplify it and assume that the damage output should be connected to the kinetic force of the cannon ball, a 42pd cannon ball has more than 4,5 times the mass of a 9pd cannon ball. So if the speed is the same then the 42pd ball should be able to hit with more than 4,5 times the kinetic force of the 9pd ball, and this should imo be reflected directly in the damage output. On the other side if the velocity for the 42 pd is 4 times lower than the 9pd, I do get the current damage output..! :D 

Note: I thought the current system we have was working well. I never considered it unbalanced at least. The range and penetration makes sense to me, and except for 68pd carronades big bang and little action - I do not have real problem with the damage either because big ships have many cannons. So do we really need to change it?  😄

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Many say "dont fix what's not broken" and while I agree with that I think the penetration values of 12 and 18 pounders actually are broken. Fix pls. (you linked my thread already so I dont add anything else :) ) However it would also be nice to make 3rd and 2nds more viable in fighting 1st rates.

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8 minutes ago, rediii said:

Beaucoup disent "ne réparez pas ce qui n'est pas cassé" et bien que je convienne avec cela, je pense que les valeurs de pénétration de 12 et 18 livres sont en réalité brisées . Correction des pls. (vous avez déjà lié mon fil pour que je n'ajoute rien d'autre :) ) Cependant, il serait également intéressant de rendre les 3ème et 2ème plus viables dans la lutte contre les taux 1.

Je partage complètement cet avis...

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4 hours ago, Intrepido said:

I dont know if it fits on the discussion but the cannons placed in forts are only effective in short distance.

I have no idea which type of cannons are they so I can not say much about their values.

 

Personally I feel the 12pd on frigates quite disappointing. And you usually find people using carros instead.

I honestly cant remember when was the last time I saw a belle poule with longs. Also it is quite common to place carros on the top deck of some frigates due to the low performance of the 6pd, 9pd and 12pd.

18pd-24pd frigates are the most used atm: Hercules, Trinc, Endy, Essex.

 

 

 Forts should have more accurate guns if for nothing else that you had a more stable firing platform!  

As for 12pd frigates this is what happened IRL - they were replaced by frigates with 18pd and then 24 pd batteries. Ships with 9pd batteries like Surprise went to carros.  So I don't think that is a cannon problem. Maybe a BR problem if anything. 

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4 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

I think we need to test the damage by broadside weight initiative before we can speak with any authority on canons.  Everything will change when this comes into play.

I second this ^^.

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4 hours ago, Powderhorn said:

42lb carronades feel anemic.  Sometimes it feels that as the ball increases in size, the drop increases, causing a sharper angle and more deflections.

Leaks in general feel like they are merely a pest, not anything important.  I'd suggest that as armor decreases on a side, the % chance of leaks increases, which would make spike damage on larger vessels more felt by smaller vessels.

@Powderhorn If you feel leaks are nothing of import, then may I suggest you face Ram Dinark from Prussia. He is always capable of 19+ leaks no matter your ship build, upgrades, angling, nor whether you purposely hide your belly. If he is within 200 meters of you he can leak you. 19+ leaks will result in a sunk ship within minutes. 24+ leaks results in a sunk ship within seconds. I find leaks to be excessive and some upgrade/perk combos are OP.

4 hours ago, Banished Privateer said:

Their accuracy is just bad, they are not ineffective at the range. 

About guns topic... 36pd are useless. Never used them. No one is using them. For some reason also, carronades became recently much heavier than before and the information about that was skipped in patch notes. No reason mentioned, no change mentioned, as we call it... ninja-patch. 

Stern chasers are super accurate while bow chasers are drunk. This leads to hundreds of problems in my opinion and doesn't make much sense.

@admin ^this. Stern chasers are ridiculously accurate. As much as I like it, please, please change this. I do not understand why cannon ports control the aim functions. Cannons themselves should be controlling the aim. If 36 lb carronades have a wide aiming triangle, it should have that same wide aim triangle no matter where it is placed in the ship gun ports.

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Reload. While the 1 minute mark ( in general ) fits the importance of the first 3 broadsides against an enemy ship - many encounters were decided in these 3 first broadsides - the times should be reviewed ( average historical marks 5 minutes per broadside reload, with first 3 being fast, and by the 30th very slow, which is too much for the game, but 1 minute is too short to make justice ). Plus, takes the same time to reload a 12 pounder as it takes to reload a 24, in reality.

These are indirectly tied to the ability of guns. Ain't damage, ain't penetration, but all the same should warrant a review if devs so wish it.

Gun crews. We working the ships with the bare minimum to manage them. A 24 pounder when at duty is 12 men plus 1 boy. A 6 pounder requires 8. In game we use less.

So, guns put out more damage using less crew and 3 to 5 times less reload time when compared to reality.

Being a game, with its benefits of ship handling, a review of these might be worth. All of these on top of the shot weight, which i believe will make a difference for the better.  

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1 minute ago, Hethwill said:

Reload. While the 1 minute mark ( in general ) fits the importance of the first 3 broadsides against an enemy ship - many encounters were decided in these 3 first broadsides - the times should be reviewed ( average historical marks 5 minutes per broadside reload, with first 3 being fast, and by the 30th very slow, which is too much for the game, but 1 minute is too short to make justice ). Plus, takes the same time to reload a 12 pounder as it takes to reload a 24, in reality.

These are indirectly tied to the ability of guns. Ain't damage, ain't penetration, but all the same should warrant a review if devs so wish it.

Gun crews. We working the ships with the bare minimum to manage them. A 24 pounder when at duty is 12 men plus 1 boy. A 6 pounder requires 8. In game we use less.

So, guns put out more damage using less crew and 3 to 5 times less reload time when compared to reality.

Being a game, with its benefits of ship handling, a review of these might be worth. All of these on top of the shot weight, which i believe will make a difference for the better.  

maybe more penalty for the amount of crew you have on gunnery combined that they add in if you go half, slow, battle (80%-60%-40%) sails so people would prefer to not go full sails for the reload sake

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8 minutes ago, Wyy said:

so people would prefer to not go full sails for the reload sake

Don't go there.  Half sail and full sails require the same amount of people (none).  It's changing sails that requires crew.  Lets not get into that.

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1 hour ago, Capt Aerobane said:

I'd like the ranging shot firing order to be optimized on ships like renommee or st pavel; the upper deck guns are annoying to have because if you have them equipped, they fire first by default and make aiming the entire broadside difficult instead of adding to it. To avoid this you can disable them, but keeping track of when they are loaded and if you want them to fire makes them annoying to micromanage for a really small increase in firepower. I would like the firing order for ships with weird configurations to be tweaked so that they fire in a pattern that is more useful to aim or range a larger broadside. For instance on the pavel, have the 2nd from top deck of guns fire first with ranging shots, and only the top deck guns fire when the natural progression of shots from the lower deck reaches that point along the ship.

Crudely drawn example of gun layout for a ship like renommee:

Untitled.png.78d5dfd46d4815ba9aa6d17228b7bdf0.png

Currently the game would fire in this order:

8, 9, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

I would prefer either 

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.

or better

1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 5, 9, 6, 7.

A small change, but one that would make the quality of life better for any ship with a huge gap in its upper deck or very few guns there.

Why would you do a ranging shot with a gun not from your main battery?  

Its a very simple fix as you said.  It take no time to use your F1,F2,F3...etc. keys and turn off the quarter or poop deck.

Edited by Vernon Merrill

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My only input, cannon horizontal accuracy is too good. 

This makes laser accurate sniping a normal. 

Single Cannon horizontal accuracy should be %10-15 worse. The broadside can stay similiar. 

Accuracy should be like front chasers for all, thus control perk for all ships. 

Edited by AeRoTR
Control
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id like the ability to assign a hotkey to align your guns all the way to the left or right, instead of having to zoom in and look at that direction with the mouse

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For the purpose of discussion its probably worth dropping this topic in here too, even though I have edited some of the values now, there is are some interesting posts on there. Most importantly there are 2 tables on there that are useful to the discussion here, I will post them below.


Typical Guns
British (453g) French Livre (489g) Russian Funt (495g) Spanish Libre (459g) Turkish Okka (1282g) Dutch Pond (494g) Venetian Libbre Sottili (301g) Portugese Libra (459g) Swedish Skålpund (425g) Danish-Norwegian Pund (499g)
6 2.718 2.934 2.97 2.754 7.692 2.964 1.806 2.754 2.55 2.994
9 4.077 4.401 4.455 4.131 11.538 4.446 2.709 4.131 3.825 4.491
12 5.436 5.868 5.94 5.508 15.384 5.928 3.612 5.508 5.1 5.988
18 8.154 8.802 8.91 8.262 23.076 8.892 5.418 8.262 7.65 8.982
24 10.872 11.736 11.88 11.016 30.768 11.856 7.224 11.016 10.2 11.976
32 14.496 15.648 15.84 14.688 41.024 15.808 9.632 14.688 13.6 15.968
36 16.308 17.604 17.82 16.524 46.152 17.784 10.836 16.524 15.3 17.964
42 19.026 20.538 20.79 19.278 53.844 20.748 12.642 19.278 17.85 20.958
68 30.804 33.252 33.66 31.212 87.176 33.592 20.468 31.212 28.9 33.932

Britain (453g) France (489g) Russia (494g) Spain (459g) Turkey (1282g) Netherlands (494g) Venice (301g) Portugal (459g) Sweden (425g) Denmark-Norway (499g)
42lb 36lb 68lb 36lb 14 okka 40lb 50lb 36lb 36lb 36lb
32lb 30lb 60lb 24lb 9 okka 36lb 40lb 24lb 30lb 24lb
24lb 24lb 48lb 18lb 5 okka 30lb 30lb 18lb 24lb 18lb
18lb 18lb 36lb 12lb 3 okka 24lb 20lb 12lb 18lb 12lb
12lb 12lb 30lb 8lb 1.5 okka 18lb 16lb 9lb 12lb 8lb
9lb 8lb 24lb 6lb 3 Kantar (169.5kg) 12lb 14lb 6lb 8lb 6lb
6lb 6lb 18lb 4lb 1 Kantar (56.5kg) 9lb 12lb   6lb  
4lb 4lb 12lb 48lb Obusier (French lb) 1/2 Kantar (28.3kg) 6lb 9lb   4lb  
3lb 48lb Obusier 8lb 36lb Obusier (French lb)     6lb   3lb  
68lb Carronade 36lb Obusier 6lb 30lb Obusier (French lb)     200lb Tirar Bombe (30lb)   2lb  
32lb Carronade 30lb Obusier 3lb 24lb Obusier (French lb)     120lb Tirar Bombe (20lb)      
24lb Carronade 24lb Obusier 96lb Carronade 18lb Obusier (French lb)            
18lb Carronade 18lb Obusier 68lb Carronade 12lb Obusier (French lb)            
  12lb Obusier 48lb Carronade              
    36lb Carronade              
    30lb Carronade              
    24lb Carronade              
    18lb Carronade              
    12lb Carronade              
    8lb Carronade              
    6lb Carronade              
    1 Pood Edinorog (63lb)              
    1/2 Pood Edinorog (29lb)              
    1/4 Pood Edinorog (9lb)              
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1 minute ago, sveno said:

@Fluffy Fishy cannot read the contents of the table (due to fixed width forum), can you post it as a picture, so we can open it in a new window?

Thanks! :) 

that moment when a 1440p monitor comes in handy

FpjgRbX.jpg

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Cannon feedback after thousands of hours:

i have noticed no issues. Don’t make poods common or craftable. 

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1 hour ago, Farrago said:

Don’t make poods common or craftable. 

Gold ammo in NA :) 

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@adminlimit poods for russian ships (st pavel and inger and cherubim(frigate)) would alone make those ships more attractive

Edited by Wyy
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